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After Hours "Misogyny on boards" sticky...

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    #182
    TheBeardedLady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,086 ✭✭✭TheBeardedLady


    liz lemoncello wrote: »
    I actually posted a few examples, but I don't think anyone responded to my post, not even to disagree with me.

    I know. I saw them. I did see posts after insisting that none had been posted though. ;-)


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    #183
    A Little Baby Elephant
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭A Little Baby Elephant


    liz lemoncello wrote: »
    I actually posted a few examples, but I don't think anyone responded to my post, not even to disagree with me.
    You've one post in this Thread and this is it.
    TheBeardedLady wrote: »
    I know. I saw them. I did see posts after insisting that none had been posted though. ;-)
    Magic.


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    #184
    liz lemoncello
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭liz lemoncello


    A Little Baby Elephant wrote: »
    You've one post in this Thread and this is it.

    Magic.

    Yes, this is true.


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    #185
    A Little Baby Elephant
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8 ✭A Little Baby Elephant


    liz lemoncello wrote: »
    Yes, this is true.

    Ah right, I see what ye are at. Nevermind.


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    #186
    Laura Palmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Laura Palmer


    I saw your posts to the After Hours thread too Liz.


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    #187
    Laura Palmer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 249 ✭✭Laura Palmer


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    Ya that's true - a lot of the criticisms of feminism are caricatures really (usually picking a handful of the most extreme of the extremist feminists - e.g. the thread on the Spanish extremist feminists), yet posters will often make sarcastic comments - as if aimed at some imaginary posters on Boards who are meant to hold similar views (when there are none).
    Yep - the M.O. is as plain as night following day. There is probably a small number of people who post to TLL that hold similar (or close to similar) views as those extremists, but not on AH, so when posters make those sarcastic comments... who are they talking to? :confused: Making eejits of themselves tbh.
    Someone asked on that thread if the patriarchy had been blamed yet - I had a scroll back through After Hours with "patriarchy" as a search term. Only went back three months and it's mentioned a hell of a lot... by people criticising radfems (often with good cause). Posts complaining about/blaming the patriarchy in relation to women? Didn't see any, just some people disputing the popular (and indeed radical feminist) definition of it and contending that what they see it as is societal norms that are damaging for BOTH men and women. I saw one person three months ago refer to "patriarchal" in relation to same-sex marriage.
    That thread had no posts by people agreeing with those hardline, rather unhinged tactics, just lots of criticism of them (which I'd agree with) and references to Shirtgate.
    There are plenty of reasonable criticisms of feminists, but there are a ton of shít-stirrers who follow the above pattern; the general pattern is: Find the most extreme feminists, then generalize them to all feminists, as a stick to beat them with - and start or post in threads to do this, aiming to troll/stir-shít.
    You can still see the gender war-commencing threads. It even felt like a brief increase in them when the sticky acknowledging the problem was posted (note the lack of whingeing about the removal of the sticky). But the two latest ones were closed - the mods know what a handful of people (one in particular) are up to. There is a small bit of downplaying of what Julien Blanc has been reported as doing, but it's now less uncomfortable to post a comment questioning the likes of this.
    An easy way to disarm all of that in a normal debate, is to just point out that people are making generalizations that they can't back - but I can't be bothered as it's just a waste of time doing that, when you know it will lead to an unproductive discussion (pages upon pages of people trying to wrangle out of backing their generalizations with proof), and when you know posters are just trying to troll anyway.
    Yeh, just ignore - definitely.
    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    There are definitely examples of sexism (against both men and women) on boards, it would take me hours to copy and paste every single instance. It doesn't mean it's misogyny or misandry. Some forums are worse than others.
    No it isn't always misogyny - that's why I am using the phrase "hostility towards women" for a lot of it.
    With regard to hostility towards men/misandry on Boards, I asked this question earlier on this thread:
    I'm not going to be like people on the first thread who were effectively saying "I don't see misogyny therefore it's not happening" (pretty arrogant tbh) but I really don't see it on AH to anywhere near the same level. I see a little bit of hostility towards men/borderline misandry/misandry on TLL (I despise the terms "mansplaining" and "rape culture" and "patriarchy"), I see a bit of whataboutery on TGC, but on AH: I'm really not seeing misandrists/hardline feminists going on about how sh-t men are (I know of course it happens elsewhere on the 'net but I'm referring specifically to After Hours). Any comments ridiculing men are mostly made by men tbh - yet feminism gets blamed, which I don't understand.
    Am I missing other misandry on AH?


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    #188
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    Apologies for the bump but I must concede my earlier claim in the thread about not seeing any blatant misogyny in AH.

    The Ched Evans thread is quite disturbing tbh.


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    #189
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Its a weird case though with the two different judgments relating to the individuals involved, I understand why this could have been the result legally but its an unusual situation where one man is an evil rapist and the other guy is absolutely fine legally.
    I haven't seen anybody condone the abuse the victim has suffered, I've seen people question the verdict in light of information thats been available in the public sphere though. Is this evidence of misogyny though or an honest belief that a miscarriage of just has occurred.
    I can get how believing this verdict was incorrect can be a result of misogynistic beliefs but I'm not sure if can say that disagreeing with this verdict is automatically the result of misogyny.
    Its under appeal as well so I am not sure what the boards.ie stance is on this?
    Its something I have been half following as the whole consent and alcohol thing is sort of a hot button issue now but TBH nearly everybody involved sounds unappealing (if the material in the public domain is accurate)


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    #190
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    I haven't seen anybody condone the abuse the victim has suffered

    I saw one bloke calling her an easy ride, and many throwing out the old chestnuts of "she woke up regretting what happened and cried rape" and claiming opportunism on her part because he's a pro player.

    When I say misogyny I'm not referring to people's misgivings over the verdict, I'm simply referring to the downright nastiness on display that they can't even mask as decent reasoning.


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    #191
    Venus In Furs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,028 ✭✭✭Venus In Furs


    I'm someone who is keeping an open mind about Ched Evans, bearing in mind men can be accused and convicted of rape when they didn't force the woman to have sex against her will, and viewing this case as *potentially* being one such incident... however, he was still found guilty, so people can't be one hundred per cent sure he's innocent either.
    Yet people are just deciding he's definitely innocent and that's the end of it, and therefore using ugly language like Soft Falling Rain says.

    People have compared her to a drunk driver, one saying she's worse than a drunk driver. Logic utterly gone out the window.


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    #192
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    I've actually stopped reading that thread because of it.

    Questioning the verdict is fair enough. Many posters have done it in a polite way.

    The things that SOME posters are saying about the girl though, is disturbing.


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    #193
    The Hill Billy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,746 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    To be honest, you would be better off using the Report Post function rather than this thread if you are seeing offensive posts in one specific thread in AH.


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    #194
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    The Hill Billy wrote: »
    To be honest, you would be better off using the Report Post function rather than this thread if you are seeing offensive posts in one specific thread in AH.

    My point was that I came across so many it would be difficult to report just one post.

    Also, as I said, the bump was related to me conceding a claim I made earlier in the thread. Maybe that was egotistical of me. :)

    It's funny really as for all the stick the soccer forum has gotten in the past, the equivalent thread there is far more reasonable.


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    #195
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,700 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Soft Falling Rain wrote: »
    My point was that I came across so many it would be difficult to report just one post.

    Also, as I said, the bump was related to me conceding a claim I made earlier in the thread. Maybe that was egotistical of me. :)

    It's funny really as for all the stick the soccer forum has gotten in the past, the equivalent thread there is far more reasonable.

    We all know it would be a totally different story if he played for Man Utd or Liverpool, so I wouldn't hand out any medals there just yet.


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    #196
    The Hill Billy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,746 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Soft Falling Rain wrote: »
    My point was that I came across so many it would be difficult to report just one post.

    Also, as I said, the bump was related to me conceding a claim I made earlier in the thread. Maybe that was egotistical of me. :)

    It's funny really as for all the stick the soccer forum has gotten in the past, the equivalent thread there is far more reasonable.
    My point is that if the posts were reported the mods could take action which would help stamp out the misogyny you are now seeing.


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    #197
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    The Hill Billy wrote: »
    My point is that if the posts were reported the mods could take action which would help stamp out the misogyny you are now seeing.
    There is a difficulty in deciding what posts might be reported in that particular thread: it's as if people are coming along one at a time and adding a straw to the camel's back. And it is the cumulative effect that does the damage.


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    #198
    Soft Falling Rain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭Soft Falling Rain


    The Hill Billy wrote: »
    My point is that if the posts were reported the mods could take action which would help stamp out the misogyny you are now seeing.

    Aye, I accept the importance of reporting posts, and I usually do. I guess I was just disheartened by the amount of posts.

    I've no beef with how the mods handle things, and from what I've seen a fair few posts removed. At the end of the day though there's only so much they can do. As I said earlier in the thread, they can't control the attitudes of people.


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    #199
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,795 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    There is a difficulty in deciding what posts might be reported in that particular thread: it's as if people are coming along one at a time and adding a straw to the camel's back. And it is the cumulative effect that does the damage.

    Ok but I think The Hill Billys still right its easier for mods to take action if posts are reported. In my view its better to report than not to report and then let the mods judge etc.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #200
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,795 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Soft Falling Rain wrote: »
    Aye, I accept the importance of reporting posts, and I usually do. I guess I was just disheartened by the amount of posts.

    I've no beef with how the mods handle things, and from what I've seen a fair few posts removed. At the end of the day though there's only so much they can do. As I said earlier in the thread, they can't control the attitudes of people.

    They cant but if its continuously that bad it can be locked in order to show such attitudes are not acceptable.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #201
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Tbh I thought posts by one particular poster, while vile, just about skirted the 'acceptable' line.

    I've just reported them now, however.


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    #202
    The Hill Billy
    Registered Users Posts: 22,746 ✭✭✭✭The Hill Billy


    Thanks folks. I've seen the RPs coming through. I'm sure the AH mods will take care of it as soon as they can.

    On the topic in general - if posts are reported as soon as they seen, chances are they will be dealt with promptly. Early reporting of posts has a couple of benefits - action is taken to prevent the problem poster for continuing in the same vein, this in turn can deter other posters from posting in a similar fashion, the end result being a tidier thread & ultimately a happier community.


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    #203
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Whether we like or not, any topic on these lines involving court verdicts, will inevitably have some folks scrutinising the characters of both parties involved. Some posters, almost always, invariably step over the line. :(


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    #204
    hullaballoo
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,708 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    The Ched Evans case is particularly difficult to manage from a moderator's perspective; I don't envy AH mods in having to deal with that. I'm glad nothing has come up about it in LD, but it has raised its head briefly in Radio.

    It's difficult to comment on any case where there seems to be conflicting reports all over the place. I think the media coverage of it, particularly by football pundits, is appalling. Truly appalling now.


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    #205
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,842 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Is it just me or are there a lot of first-time posters appearing in that thread? There's a serious whiff of re-reg off them.


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    #206
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Soft Falling Rain wrote: »
    I saw one bloke calling her an easy ride, and many throwing out the old chestnuts of "she woke up regretting what happened and cried rape" and claiming opportunism on her part because he's a pro player.

    When I say misogyny I'm not referring to people's misgivings over the verdict, I'm simply referring to the downright nastiness on display that they can't even mask as decent reasoning.

    Hmm actually that raises a question saying she is an "easy ride" might be a nasty judgmental thing to say but is it automatically misogynistic?
    If we take the judgement of the court as correct she did consent to having a one night stand with a random man (the friend), I've heard enough women say similar things to know that this isn't necessarily a misogynistic statement.

    The other stuff I agree is much more likely to be misogynistic but I think that this case is weird because there is so much other information out there coming from one side.

    I know this sounds like excusing blatent misogyny but the same way that I don't consider this a good case to highlight issues of alcohol and consent I also don't think responses to this are a good way of finding misogyny on Boards


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    #207
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Is it just me or are there a lot of first-time posters appearing in that thread? There's a serious whiff of re-reg off them.
    That seems to happen with threads where there is any element of conflict about anything to do with sex or with male-female relations. I report my suspicions of re-reg, and many of the new accounts disappear. I suspect that there is one very energetic serial re-reg.


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    #208
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,212 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Hmm actually that raises a question saying she is an "easy ride" might be a nasty judgmental thing to say but is it automatically misogynistic?
    If we take the judgement of the court as correct she did consent to having a one night stand with a random man (the friend), I've heard enough women say similar things to know that this isn't necessarily a misogynistic statement.

    The other stuff I agree is much more likely to be misogynistic but I think that this case is weird because there is so much other information out there coming from one side.

    I know this sounds like excusing blatent misogyny but the same way that I don't consider this a good case to highlight issues of alcohol and consent I also don't think responses to this are a good way of finding misogyny on Boards

    Its a very bad example. Being drunk is not an excuse for any and all actions. There is a world of difference between being a bit tipsey and sleeping with someone then regretting it and being assaulted while passed out.

    We have campaigns aimed at men to 'not be that guy' but you cant tell women to be responsable without be called a victim blamer.


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    #209
    RDM_83 again
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    Its a very bad example. Being drunk is not an excuse for any and all actions. There is a world of difference between being a bit tipsey and sleeping with someone then regretting it and being assaulted while passed out.

    We have campaigns aimed at men to 'not be that guy' but you cant tell women to be responsable without be called a victim blamer.

    Listen I'm not saying that its not a nasty thing to say (because it is) and it all sounds like extremely scummy behaviour, I'm saying can you assume its misogynistic?

    I'm specifically talking about he first guy though
    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    If we take the judgement of the court as correct she did consent to having a one night stand with a random man (the friend),
    Can you say that that this is a victim blaming when the first man was acquitted?
    Potatoeman wrote: »
    There is a world of difference between being a bit tipsey and sleeping with someone then regretting it and being assaulted while passed out.

    AFAIK nobody on either side is claiming thats what happened though as there is apparently video evidence showing that this is not the case, the issue relates to was she too drunk for the men involved to have a reasonable belief she was of a sound state of mind.

    Its a messy case but I am trying to highlight that while some of the statements are nasty are they actually misogynistic or simply judgmental


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    #210
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users Posts: 4,212 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    RDM_83 again wrote: »
    Listen I'm not saying that its not a nasty thing to say (because it is) and it all sounds like extremely scummy behaviour, I'm saying can you assume its misogynistic?

    I'm specifically talking about he first guy though

    Can you say that that this is a victim blaming when the first man was acquitted?



    AFAIK nobody on either side is claiming thats what happened though as there is apparently video evidence showing that this is not the case, the issue relates to was she too drunk for the men involved to have a reasonable belief she was of a sound state of mind.

    Its a messy case but I am trying to highlight that while some of the statements are nasty are they actually misogynistic or simply judgmental

    This would not be a good case as she seemed to be drunk but not passed out drunk. My point being that there is personal responsibility that needs to be pressed. If she got in a car drunk and drove not remembering is not an excuse.


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    #211
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    This would not be a good case as she seemed to be drunk but not passed out drunk. My point being that there is personal responsibility that needs to be pressed. If she got in a car drunk and drove not remembering is not an excuse.

    Well nobody else would be involved then.

    If somebody knowingly let her drink drive while aware that she was full, would they be culpable?

    Or if a passenger is also in the car, are they at fault?

    Even those aren't that close as analogies, but your one is further out again.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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