N21 Thread

bacon&cabbage · 15-03-2010 10:05pm

tech2 wrote: »

. The AADT passing through Adare is in the region of 24K,

AADT through Adare is only around 16-17K

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N21-20.htm

mysterious · 15-03-2010 10:38pm

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

AADT through Adare is only around 16-17K

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N21-20.htm

Yes its been static for years because its a bottleneck.

Kldare peaked 22,000 a day. It dwindled to 17,000 pre bypass, because traffic avoided the town by diverting to Suncroft, Rathagan, Athy etc.

When the bypass opens traffic will jump. During summer it does peak about 24,000 a day. The mainstreet of Adare already has that number all year around.

Sponge Bob · 15-03-2010 10:51pm

mysterious wrote: »

When the bypass opens traffic will jump. During summer it does peak about 24,000 a day. The mainstreet of Adare already has that number all year around.

Adare in summer is a destination in itself. The AADT West of Adare ...ie the Bypassed traffic is 12500. 12500 is complete overkill for a Type 1.

The total estimated AADT level on the scheme in 2015 is
approximately 10,500 and the remaining volume entering the town from the east is 8,200.

The model indicated that the proportion of traffic on the N21 from the Limerick direction that is passing through Adare is approximately 60%, while approximately 40% is destined for Adare itself.

The Bypass does not deal with "Adare Itself" only with those who want to get the hell out of the place

I would be surprised if end to end ( Tralee Limerick) traffic is any more than one third of the 10500 who will use the bypass on average.

You make sure ring the NRA there and give out like you said you would Mysterious

bacon&cabbage · 15-03-2010 11:00pm

mysterious wrote: »

When the bypass opens traffic will jump. During summer it does peak about 24,000 a day. The mainstreet of Adare already has that number all year around.

Source ?

There isn't a realistic alternative route around Adare.
My point in all this is that we can't go bulldozing a motorway to every corner of the country, just for the sake of it.

Sponge Bob · 15-03-2010 11:20pm

Unlike Claregalway vis a vis Galway it is true that many people visit Adare itself and many of those come from the Limerick side and leave that way afterwards.

The Type 2 bypass is well capable of dealing with the traffic that simply has no business IN Adare and wants to get around it. The same applies to every other town to the west including Castleisland.

I take tech2s point about the NRA messing with a good road design by overendowing it with roundabouts and taking insufficient grade separation opportunities as they arise.

I would also commend those looking at a Type 2 from Adare to Tralee to look at the A11 and A12 roads from London to east anglia which roads carry 50k 60k 70k AADT on what are basically Type 2 roads with no proper hard shoulder really. They are more like Type 2 with a bit of hard shoulder than a type 1 and they come with roundabouts at grade albeit big ones. But they take lots of traffic.

They are all on streetview since last week, have a look.

mysterious · 16-03-2010 1:24am

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

Source ?

There isn't a realistic alternative route around Adare.
My point in all this is that we can't go bulldozing a motorway to every corner of the country, just for the sake of it.

Oh ffs, get real, the Type 1 and 2 is not going to make any extra impact on ripping up the countryside. If we are going to base your silly assumption on a motorway ripping up the country side, Why should we let a Type 2 DC rip up the countryside.

Why did the inter urbans that has less traffic than this section get a motorway?

mysterious · 16-03-2010 1:25am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Adare in summer is a destination in itself. The AADT West of Adare ...ie the Bypassed traffic is 12500. 12500 is complete overkill for a Type 1.

The Bypass does not deal with "Adare Itself" only with those who want to get the hell out of the place

I would be surprised if end to end ( Tralee Limerick) traffic is any more than one third of the 10500 who will use the bypass on average.

You make sure ring the NRA there and give out like you said you would Mysterious

West of Adare is much higher. It doesn't drop down 3,4K after Adare. Adare is a village. I don't agree with your bias and inaccurate facts on these road matters at all.

West oF NCW would be about 12,500 approx

Tech3 · 16-03-2010 5:17am

bacon&cabbage wrote: »

AADT through Adare is only around 16-17K

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N21-20.htm

I'm getting Claregalways AADT mixed up with Adares!

On the alternative route there is none but only narrow local roads. Some drivers take this route around 5-6 in the evening when traffic is backed up to the WS2 part on the Limerick side. I know that some people take the N20 to Croom and then go to Newcastle West via Ballingarry during the summer months to avoid the bottleneck in Adare. This would not be a significant amount however.

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 9:06am

tech2 wrote: »

I'm getting Claregalways AADT mixed up with Adares!

On the alternative route there is none but only narrow local roads.

Claregalway is similar. There is a narrow road in Cregboy but the main alternative is the N84.

Mysterious. The 12500 cars west of Adare of whom 10500 will use the bypass is a fact so do not accuse me of bias or inacurracy and then bold those words like you just did.

You seem to assert that there are more than that. Where are they, how many are there exactly ??

mysterious · 16-03-2010 2:24pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Claregalway is similar. There is a narrow road in Cregboy but the main alternative is the N84.

Mysterious. The 12500 cars west of Adare of whom 10500 will use the bypass is a fact so do not accuse me of bias or inacurracy and then bold those words like you just did.

You seem to assert that there are more than that. Where are they, how many are there exactly ??

Its not a fact its youir made up facts.

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 2:34pm

mysterious wrote: »

Its not a fact its youir made up facts.

10,500 it is. Have you a number and what is it based on?

I'll let you magic 1,000 out of a stargate and will credit you with 11,500 as a starting point but you must fully account for the rest ......m'kay :cool:

mysterious · 16-03-2010 2:36pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

10,500 it is. Have you a number and what is it based on?

I'll let you magic 1,000 out of a stargate and will credit you with 11,500 as a starting point but you must fully account for the rest ......m'kay :cool:

You made the number, you back it up.

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 2:37pm

mysterious wrote: »

You made the number, you back it up.

I read the EIS, mea maxima culpa

mysterious · 16-03-2010 2:39pm

Show me the figure.

I don't trust figures from EIS schemes, because they are always lower than the actual figure. Its why they build roads with lower spec quality. Its precisely why they have a roundabout on both sides.

Traffic will drop 3,000 a day just past Adare?. Adare is a village on a national primary route not a huge population centre. Common sense as usual will prevail over nonsense bias and selective non facts. The figures are bull****.

10,500 cars a day wont cause 3 mile tailbacks in Adare. Borris in Ossary has 13,000 cars a day and doesn't suffer from any tailbacks.

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 2:45pm

mysterious wrote: »

Show me the figure.

It is in the EIS and that is that. It kind of appears on a page in the EIS , just like that , but only if the page is in front of you I find.

fresca · 16-03-2010 2:55pm

castleisland bypass jan-feb 2010 newsletter on kcc website
http://www.kerrycoco.ie/en/allservices/roads/n21castleislandbypass/thefile,3567,en.pdf

mysterious · 16-03-2010 3:20pm

This whole new EIS is a scam to make it downgraded. The North section Adare bypass was a normal DC with no roundabouts.

mysterious · 16-03-2010 3:25pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It is in the EIS and that is that. It kind of appears on a page in the EIS , just like that , but only if the page is in front of you I find.

I don't really care. Its not that figure. And It seems your not very familar with the area or bottlenecks.

Enfiled and Kildare had traffic static or even decreasing for about 2/3 years prior to their bypasses. When these towns were bypass traffic grew by over 50%

Kildare has over 33,000 a day. Pre bypass 22,000
Enfield. has over 24,000 (9,000 avoiding toll) pre bypass just 23,000

A large amount of traffic avoids Adare at peak times. In summer it swells to 20,000 a day. The NRA figures varies around 16,000 a day. It peaked to 17,700. Since traffic crawls through Adare traffic has not increased and like many counters near bottlenecks decrease. Adare has traffic levels higher than all the inter urbans yet they get grade separate interchanges and a full blown motorway.

I would be happy with this just a HQDC to North oF Newcastlewest, after that type 2. I think its the best solution for the long term.

murphaph · 16-03-2010 3:57pm

mysterious wrote: »

I don't trust figures from EIS schemes, because they are always lower than the actual figure. Its why they build roads with lower spec quality.

hahahaha....have you not noticed the motorways being built all over the country with AADTs below 10k in some places? These roads would be S2 in the UK and you are complaining that we underspec roads based on AADT. :rolleyes:

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 4:05pm

mysterious wrote: »

I don't really care. Its not that figure. And It seems your not very familar with the area or bottlenecks.

LOL. Not caring will get me a Type One on my boreen by that logic.

mysterious wrote:

The NRA figures varies around 16,000 a day. It peaked to 17,700.

It peaked EAST of Adare not WEST of Adare. Furthermore traffic can come from West of Adare INTO Adare and back out again.

Those that are estimated as wanting to get AROUND ...not INTO.... Adare are 10500 per day of the present 12500 per day who enter the village from the west.

You are nearly making a reasonable argument for extending the EXISTING dual carriageway R Road (as it will be) right up to to the eastern fringe of the Village there Mysterious

mysterious wrote:

Adare has traffic levels higher than all the inter urbans yet they get grade separate interchanges and a full blown motorway.

What???? Adare gets more cars than the M1 at Swords or the M4 at Leixlip. Get real willya.

I would be happy with this just a HQDC to North oF Newcastlewest, after that type 2. I think its the best solution for the long term.

And yet you refuse time and again to prove that the traffic levels warrant that grade of road and instead you scream at me and accuse me of making numbers up and then you deliberately obfuscate traffic levels east of Adare with much lower traffic levels west of Adare.

Get real, the only trumpet we will see around Adare is the one you blow hard into

mysterious · 16-03-2010 4:06pm

murphaph wrote: »

hahahaha....have you not noticed the motorways being built all over the country with AADTs below 10k in some places? These roads would be S2 in the UK and you are complaining that we underspec roads based on AADT. :rolleyes:

Then why are you for Schemes around Enniscorthy and New ross to higher spec and even motorway?
:rolleyes:

mysterious · 16-03-2010 4:12pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

LOL. Not caring will get me a Type One on my boreen by that logic.

It peaked EAST of Adare not WEST of Adare. Furthermore traffic can come from West of Adare INTO Adare and back out again.

Those that are estimated as wanting to get AROUND ...not INTO.... Adare are 10500 per day of the present 12500 per day who enter the village from the west.

You are nearly making a reasonable argument for extending the EXISTING dual carriageway R Road (as it will be) right up to to the eastern fringe of the Village there Mysterious

What???? Adare gets more cars than the M1 at Swords or the M4 at Leixlip. Get real willya.

And yet you refuse time and again to prove that the traffic levels warrant that grade of road and instead you scream at me and accuse me of making numbers up and then you deliberately obfuscate traffic levels east of Adare with much lower traffic levels west of Adare.

Get real, the only trumpet we will see around Adare is the one you blow hard into

I'm sorry but I'm allergic to this kind of back and forth silly non sensical replies. My point is this. The Adare N21 doesn't drop 2.500 at either side of the village. Its a village. The N21 of 16,500 a day may dwindle down to about 15,500 or a figure more realistic. Anyway all road opening attract more traffic so your figures are just woefully twisted to negate the argument of the real facts.

The fact is, no inter urban in this country deserves motorway status. Bar the Portlaoise to Dublin, Mullingar to Dublin, Galway to Claregalway. Limerick to Adare, Cork to Rathduff. Dublin to Dundalk.

It's near Limerick, Adare, Newcastlwest are growing towns. Its the main route to the SW and it connects to Kilarney, Listowel, Tralee, Dingle and other towns.

The Adare section would be better as Type 1 leaving the rest as Type 2 considering traffic will rise drastically on this route as its bypassing a major bottleneck. It should have the road standard as the Adare northern bypass section. Funny how you don't seem to mention that.

I understand that you may not be familar with this area, but you don't call the shots or actually give the actual facts here. So lets keep it real. You have probably never even passed through the village.

murphaph · 16-03-2010 4:14pm

mysterious wrote: »

Then why are you for Schemes around Enniscorthy and New ross to higher spec and even motorway?
:rolleyes:

Lol, I'm not saying they shouldn't be built as motorway, I'm saying that your assertion that EIS figures are used to water down schemes is patently rubbish!

ardmacha · 16-03-2010 4:18pm

Adare has traffic levels higher than all the inter urbans yet they get grade separate interchanges and a full blown motorway.

Nonsense.

The M1 at Dundalk bypass has 21908 and 13.8% HGV, other parts of the M1 nearer Dublin have much much more.
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/M01-6.htm

North of Adare has 15543 and 6.2% HGV.
http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N21-20.htm

mysterious · 16-03-2010 4:18pm

murphaph wrote: »

Lol, I'm not saying they shouldn't be built as motorway, I'm saying that your assertion that EIS figures are used to water down schemes is patently rubbish!

Its not. It's blatant. Look at the Adare Northern bypass scheme which was a standard DC if not (HQDC) with no roundabouts.

The 10.500 figure is a low based count to make this route upgrade pityful and not based on actual figures for actual needs.

I know most people in Ireland don't see the logic of future proofing roads. But I don't design roads based on EIS non facts figures. i base road projects on a 20 year life span at least. With this project it would be more logical to just build a proper standard DC and none of the Type 2 crap.

veryangryman · 16-03-2010 4:23pm

Lads, cant we all just get along

* Leaves guns and chainsaws onto the verbal battlefield *

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 4:27pm

mysterious wrote: »

Its a village. The N21 of 16,500 a day may dwindle down to about 15,500 or a figure more realistic.

What does that mean ???? Only 1000 cars a day will bypass Adare and the other 15,500 will continue through ?????

The fact is, no inter urban in this country deserves motorway status. Bar the Portlaoise to Dublin, Mullingar to Dublin, Galway to Claregalway. Limerick to Adare, Cork to Rathduff. Dublin to Dundalk.

That means no Motorways should be built anywhere save a few small missing links north of Cork north of Galway and east of Adare....NOT West of Adare..... surely.

The Adare section would be better as Type 1 leaving the rest as Type 2 considering traffic will rise drastically on this route as its bypassing a major bottleneck. It should have the road standard as the Adare northern bypass section. Funny how you don't seem to mention that.

Funny how you never mentioned the SAC either and the reroute was driven primarily by that.

From the EIS!

It should be noted that in the intervening period since
the initial route corridor assessment the boundaries of the Lower River Shannon Candidate Special Area of Conservation (cSAC:002165) were extended in January 2007 to the River Maigue bridge in Adare. As a result the route for Option 1 now crossed a designated Candidate Special Area of Conservation.

mysterious · 16-03-2010 5:34pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

What does that mean ???? Only 1000 cars a day will bypass Adare and the other 15,500 will continue through ?????

That means no Motorways should be built anywhere save a few small missing links north of Cork north of Galway and east of Adare....NOT West of Adare..... surely.

Funny how you never mentioned the SAC either and the reroute was driven primarily by that.

From the EIS!

I made my point clear in my last post, maybe you should go back over it instead of taking it out context.

The Adare bypass can demand a standard DC. West of Adare gets 2+2.

If you think it doesn't why didn't you ever campaign agsinst other roads getting motorway status that have less traffic than this section of road. I'm not really bothered about the blue road status. I'm just basing my stance that common sense should prevail and a proper DC should be built that has grade seperated free flowing junctions.

I mean in the next 20 years its very sensible to allow this section Type 1. Why are you so against proper future proofing? I didn't want the NRA to make the Nenagh bypass a S2 but what happens a few years later a total rebuild and millions in taxpayer money wasted. I wouldn't like to have you running our infrastructure to be quite frank.

Sponge Bob · 16-03-2010 5:47pm

mysterious wrote: »

I wouldn't like to have you running our infrastructure to be quite frank.

You won't find me writing the sleevenotes for Lady Gaga's Greatest Hits either

Find those cars mysterious, you start right now at 10,500 and the 1,000 stargate premium. Target 20,000. Go for it my son.

mysterious · 16-03-2010 7:18pm

AS usual you resort to childish responses.

Stick to the facts the ego patronizing trips don't suit you. Your the one that came up with traffic dropping drastically from east to west of Adare. Traffic drops to about to about 13,000 a day a NCW And west of Abbeyfeale its 12,000. It doesn't drop to 10.500 west of Adare. Your wrong. and your just twisting figures around for some sort of agenda that I'm not really interested in or bothered with

The fact is the traffic at Adare is 16000 a day an when the bypass opens it will drastically rise as Adare is now a town not to avoid any onger with held ups. When the Tunnel and M7 and Gort motorways are finished it will also attract more traffic onto this road.

NCW is a town on the N21 Which is one of the fastest growing towns in Ireland and is west o Adare. I don't why traffic would drop drastically at Adare like you posed..

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