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Post Scrappage Rant

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    - the scrappage scheme is NOT good for all of the Irish car trade, but only a part of it (the salesman in the main dealer). The scrappage scheme means that people in for example the parts trade, or independent mechanics have a much tougher time as people who otherwise might spend money on fixing their old car decide it's not worth the bother when they can get €1500 for it and have a brand new car with cheap tax and low fuel consumption.

    Keeping old cars on the road (once properly maintained, obviously) is better for the many independent garages who look after these cars. Keeping old cars on the road ensures that more money stays in Ireland, and you don't need to be an economist to figure out that this is a very good thing. Consequently, the scrappage scheme is not actually good for the economy at all! It undeniably increases VAT and VRT revenue, but at the expense of what? The jobs lost by those outside of the SIMI network? The other sectors of the service based economy, who are making less money because people have spent their money on a car instead of say improving the house, buying a new TV etc?

    Lastly, a lot of the new cars being bought are complicated diesel engines, with turbos, injectors, DMFs, DPFs and God knows what other gubbins that could go wrong.

    Now, if you're like me, or anyone else on this forum who knows about cars, you'll know how to look after a modern diesel properly and touch wood the worst that will happen is the DMF. But as we know, most people don't have a clue how to look after cars, and I know of people who just drive around the town all the time but have a diesel because of the low tax etc. So for some people, who do not know how to look after their diesel car properly, the new car will end up costing more and causing more hassle in the long run as it will be less reliable than the older car.

    Goodbye scrappage scheme, and good riddance. I hope we never see the likes of it ever again.
    user_online.gif

    I think you just totally contradicted yourself all in one post.

    eg, you say with everyone buying new cars there will be no old cars for mechanics to fix (which is something i find totally flawed btw)
    Then in the next breath you say a lot of people cant look after their complicated diesel engine? so going by your train of thought surely the mechanics you said that would lose all their work because of the scrappage scheme can fix these?

    I would love to see figures to back up the parts trade loss too as i dont agree with what you said.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    RoverJames wrote: »
    Someone scrapped something against that A4 did they?

    No - it's an example of the huge amount of tax the government get on each new car sold. Giving a €1,500 or €1,250 rebate off the amount is very little in the grand scheme of things, and has more than likely paid for itself many times over.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    gazmc18 wrote: »
    I would love to see figures to back up the parts trade loss too as i dont agree with what you said.

    I worked in a motor factors back in the 90s when the first scrappage scheme was about, there was a significant drop in turnover and most of our customers (indy garages) were hit by it. It makes sense really.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    R.O.R wrote: »
    No - it's an example of the huge amount of tax the government get on each new car sold. Giving a €1,500 or €1,250 rebate off the amount is very little in the grand scheme of things, and has more than likely paid for itself many times over.

    It's not a great example though in fairness, the tax take on a Megane, Clio or similar would be more relevent :)

    The A4 you mention and those like it would have been bought regardless of the scrappage scheme.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,666 ✭✭✭DeepBlue


    It aint really costing the tax payer anything, infact it is overall revenue positive.If you take the average price of a new car sold on scrappage say €10,000.
    If that were true then we would always have a scappage scheme as the Government would be making money out of it.
    Arguably the scrappage scheme is bringing forward car purchases that would have to be made anyway so instead of buying in the next couple of years people take the plunge now but that will leave a hole in car sales in one to two years time.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,672 ✭✭✭✭R.O.R


    RoverJames wrote: »
    It's not a great example though in fairness, the tax take on a Megane, Clio or similar would be more relevent :)

    It's a slightly better example than the €14,000 of VAT and VRT on the 3 Series Touring invoice, which is the only other one on my desk :D Both cars would qualify under scrappage though.

    Still comes to just shy of 30% of the invoice price, so that figure seems about right for a VRT Cat B vehicle.
    RoverJames wrote: »
    The A4 you mention and those like it would have been bought regardless of the scrappage scheme.

    Not neccesarily. The scrappage scheme has made it more "acceptable" overall to own a new car. People were worried in 09 & 10 about having a new plate, but it's much more accepted now.

    Plus, you've got to keep up with the O'Malley's down the road....


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    Even if the VRT on a car is only €2000 and the €1250 rebate is given. Its still €750 earned that would not of been without the scheme.

    Everyone updates their car eventually, you will always have a use for mechanics and parts! I still dont see how the scrappage scheme ruins this. Everywhere has gone slow, with or without the scrappage scheme it would still be the same.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    gazmc18 wrote: »
    Even if the VRT on a car is only €2000 and the €1250 rebate is given. Its still €750 earned that would not of been without the scheme.
    It's €750 into the coffers in VRT and maybe €10,000 straight over to whatever country manufactured the car. Had that €10,000 been spent here, it would have supported jobs throughout the economy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    Anan1 wrote: »
    It's €750 into the coffers in VRT and maybe €10,000 straight over to whatever country manufactured the car. Had that €10,000 been spent here, it would have supported jobs throughout the economy.

    Spent on what though??!

    Are you suggesting that Irish people shouldn't buy a car at all because they can't buy one that is built in Ireland?

    If that's the case, we shouldn't buy TV's, IPod's, cookers, or pretty much anything that is used in our day to day lives, because very few of these everyday items are built in Ireland too.

    Your posts make no sense to me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by gazmc18 viewpost.gif
    Even if the VRT on a car is only €2000 and the €1250 rebate is given. Its still €750 earned that would not of been without the scheme.

    It's €750 into the coffers in VRT and maybe €10,000 straight over to whatever country manufactured the car. Had that €10,000 been spent here, it would have supported jobs throughout the economy

    So what your saying is spend your money on something "Irish" instead of buying a car. So maybe we could all go spend 10K on spuds and guinness.

    Seriously though no cars are made in Ireland so you got no choice. Again if we didnt send that €10,000 to another country we couldnt make our €750 so whatever way you look at it its what we got to do to make revenue on our end. I would rather get a small percentage of something than 100% of nothing.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    RoverJames wrote: »
    It's not a great example though in fairness, the tax take on a Megane, Clio or similar would be more relevent :)

    The A4 you mention and those like it would have been bought regardless of the scrappage scheme.

    no , it wouldnt, not everybody who used the scrappage scheme was stupid enough to buy those cars which will probably be on the scrap heap before the next scrappage scheme rolls around


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,812 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Spent on what though??!

    Are you suggesting that Irish people shouldn't buy a car at all because they can't buy one that is built in Ireland?

    If that's the case, we shouldn't buy TV's, IPod's, cookers, or pretty much anything that is used in our day to day lives, because very few of these everyday items are built in Ireland too.

    Your posts make no sense to me.

    The industry which was most decimated by the collapse should have been propped up not car sales, which BTW is still going to be decimated with no long term benefit to anyone Irish or the environment.

    The housing stock in this country is in bits, badly insulated and made. If the government gave as good a grant for improving our housing stock it would have made a bigger impact here then people buying new cars.

    I know there are grants for home improvements, but these have only come in now that everyone with any spare cash has spend it on a shiny new 11 car and can't afford fix up their house now.

    Or they could have reduced VAT on restaurant's and hotels to 0% to get people spending their money, as opposed to a lot of cases the with cars spending the banks money, on something that will provide direct employment in Ireland.

    The UK, USA and all the other countries which had scrappage schemes where trying to stimulate their own car industries, and failed miserably since nearly everyone bought small Asian cars, yet we decided the best industry to stimulate was one we don't have:confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    no , it wouldnt, not everybody who used the scrappage scheme was stupid enough to buy those heaps

    A lot of people who bought cars on scrappage did though, and the other point about scrappage is that most of those cars have such low VRT that after the €1500 refund is given, there is no VRT left, so not all cars sold under scrappage resulted in the Government getting VRT, so it's just VAT they got!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The industry which was most decimated by the collapse should have been propped up not car sales, which BTW is still going to be decimated with no long term benefit to anyone Irish or the environment.

    I have to disagree with you there - it's of huge benefit to the thousands of PAYE workers who are employed in the motor trade. If these people were to be made redundant the Taxpayer would end up footing a bill of hundreds of millions to support these people.

    Also, the scrappage scheme has encouraged alot of people to buy low emission cars. Explain to me how that's not good for the enviroment?
    The housing stock in this country is in bits, badly insulated and made. If the government gave as good a grant for improving our housing stock it would have made a bigger impact here then people buying new cars.

    People here are trying to encourage buying Irish products, but you've just claimed that one of the biggest Irish made items out there are poorly made?

    Not only that, but if people had have paid more attention to what they were spending their money on in the first place, they wouldn't have to worry about this problem.

    It also wouldn't have kept half as many people in employment, which goes back to my first point above.
    I know there are grants for home improvements, but these have only come in now that everyone with any spare cash has spend it on a shiny new 11 car and can't afford fix up their house now.

    That's someone's personal choice - if they want to buy a new car instead of building an extension then it's up to them to do so.

    Alot of people put money into home improvements instead of buying a car, so this is kind of a moot point.
    Or they could have reduced VAT on restaurant's and hotels to 0% to get people spending their money, as opposed to a lot of cases the with cars spending the banks money, on something that will provide direct employment in Ireland.

    Again, the Irish motor trade provides direct employment in Ireland. Thousands of people in fact. Just because car's aren't built in Ireland anymore does not mean that the motor trade is useless.

    I can also assure you that the majority of people who bought a new car in the last two years more than likely did so with their own cash. The banks in Ireland simply do not have the money to lend.
    The UK, USA and all the other countries which had scrappage schemes where trying to stimulate their own car industries, and failed miserably since nearly everyone bought small Asian cars, yet we decided the best industry to stimulate was one we don't have:confused:


    Again, I don't see your point. We DO have a Motor Industry in Ireland. While it is not involved in the manufacturing end of things, it is involved in the sales, and maintenance end of things.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,921 ✭✭✭Gophur


    Del2005 wrote: »
    The industry which was most decimated by the collapse should have been propped up not car sales,.........

    You mean the construction industry? The industry where semi-skilled hod-carriers were pulling home over €1k a week, for building cr4p houses?

    Del2005 wrote: »
    .......

    The housing stock in this country is in bits, badly insulated and made. If the government gave as good a grant for improving our housing stock it would have made a bigger impact here then people buying new cars.

    ............:

    I doubt it!

    Del2005 wrote: »
    ..............
    I know there are grants for home improvements, but these have only come in now that everyone with any spare cash has spend [sic] it on a shiny new 11 car and can't afford fix up their house now.

    .............

    Only people with 10 year old qualifying cars were able to avail of the scrappage scheme. A bit strange to say that everyone with spare cash has spent it on a new car.

    (There's approx €60B on deposit in Irish Banks. Not much of this was spent on new cars)

    Del2005 wrote: »
    .........
    Or they could have reduced VAT on restaurant's [sic] and hotels to 0% to get people spending their money, as opposed to a lot of cases the with cars spending the banks money, on something that will provide direct employment in Ireland.

    .....:

    So, a 0% VAT on Hotels and Restaurants. If that was the case, are you suggesting prices would have come down significantly enough to stimulate that sector of the economy?

    Del2005 wrote: »
    ..................
    The UK, USA and all the other countries which had scrappage schemes where [sic] trying to stimulate their own car industries, and failed miserably since nearly everyone bought small Asian cars, yet we decided the best industry to stimulate was one we don't have:confused:

    The Irish stimulus was for the Car Retail 'Industry', it was never designated to be a stimulus for any manufacturing industry.

    For a safe, clean economy, we need to refresh our motoring stock. The scrappage scheme helped in that respect. If we have no new cars sold, we will have a shortage of used cars. (Try getting a '09 car?)

    As for messing up the used car market? Surely taking used cars out of the market, for scrappage would help increase the prices of used cars and help the used car sales industry?


    Also, if the scrappage scheme saved 5,000 people from being on the dole for the past two years, it's worth it. (5,000 x 2 years dole payments would be in the region of €50m in benefit)


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    no , it wouldnt, not everybody who used the scrappage scheme was stupid enough to buy those cars which will probably be on the scrap heap before the next scrappage scheme rolls around

    I think anyone in the trade can confirm that the A4 or similar was not the most popular seller to folks availing of the scrappage scheme. Do you honestly think the majority of those who availed of the scheme did not buy the likes of a Megane, Focus, Clio, Yaris, i30, C'eed etc??
    I have to disagree with you there - it's of huge benefit to the thousands of PAYE workers who are employed in the motor trade. If these people were to be made redundant the Taxpayer would end up footing a bill of hundreds of millions to support these people..

    How many new cars sold since the scrappage scheme was introduced were sold to someone who availed of the scrappage scheme? Ish/ballpark figures are fine if anyone has them :)

    Once the scrappage scheme ends are all these thousands of folk going to be made redundant so?


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Spent on what though??!

    Are you suggesting that Irish people shouldn't buy a car at all because they can't buy one that is built in Ireland?

    If that's the case, we shouldn't buy TV's, IPod's, cookers, or pretty much anything that is used in our day to day lives, because very few of these everyday items are built in Ireland too.

    Your posts make no sense to me.
    That's because you work in the motor industry.;) I'm suggesting that our government shouldn't encourage the importation of consumer goods from abroad.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    RoverJames wrote: »

    How many new cars sold since the scrappage scheme was introduced were sold to someone who availed of the scrappage scheme? Ish/ballpark figures are fine if anyone has them :)

    Once the scrappage scheme ends are all these thousands of folk going to be made redundant so?

    I don't have clue tbh.

    On your second point, I think that there will be a number of redundancies once the scrappage scheme ends, but not near as many if we never had the scheme in the first place.

    The scrappage scheme has generated a lot of cash flow, and a small amount of income for dealers that would not have been able to survive without it. Because of this, they can now keep their heads above water.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    Anan1 wrote: »
    That's because you work in the motor industry.;) I'm suggesting that our government shouldn't encourage the importation of consumer goods from abroad.

    Yes, I work in the industry but I don't see what that has to do with it?

    How many day to day consumer items are manufactured in Ireland? In fairness, if Ireland didn't import these goods, we wouldn't have TV's, Radios, Cookers, shower units...........the list is endless.

    We'd be back to the times of spuds and wattle and daub homes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭gazmc18


    A lot of people who bought cars on scrappage did though, and the other point about scrappage is that most of those cars have such low VRT that after the €1500 refund is given, there is no VRT left, so not all cars sold under scrappage resulted in the Government getting VRT, so it's just VAT they got!

    The VRT Refund is €1250 btw, not many cars have lower VRT than €1250 so anything got in above that is profit. I dont see the problem here.
    Even if they only got VAT isnt that a more positive contribution than having to pay people on the dole every week that lost their jobs?

    I dont think this anti scrappage scheme argument has been thought through properly, very little to argue against it imo


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    It's going to be hilarious when people try to trade these cars in after a year or two. I spoke to one dealer recently who said he doesn't see Megane's as 21k cars anymore, he sees them as 15k cars, and reckons he'd give 10k for one a year old.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,102 ✭✭✭✭Drummerboy08


    It's going to be hilarious when people try to trade these cars in after a year or two. I spoke to one dealer recently who said he doesn't see Megane's as 21k cars anymore, he sees them as 15k cars, and reckons he'd give 10k for one a year old.

    That will be a problem IMO, and I think certain manufacturers (Renault for one) have shot themselves in the foot. They've bought a percentage of market share, which is all fine and dandy until, like you say, people start trying to trade these cars back in.

    The consumer will base his price on the pre-scrappage price, whereas the dealer will base his price on the post-scrappage figure.

    Catch 22.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    It's going to be hilarious when people try to trade these cars in after a year or two. I spoke to one dealer recently who said he doesn't see Megane's as 21k cars anymore, he sees them as 15k cars, and reckons he'd give 10k for one a year old.

    This is yet another drawback of the scrappage scheme, and like you say, the consequences won't make themselves apparent for quite some time to come.

    Renault are heading for a crash landing similar to what happened with Citroen about 10 years ago when they started giving cars away, and that was at a time when there was absolutely no need to be discounting so heavily!

    I could understand the fuss about Renaults if they were actually something interesting like the Renaultsport models, (when Renault want to they can by all accounts make cars that are fantastic to drive) which sell in droves in the UK but all that was bought here was cheap disposable rubbish.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22,818 ✭✭✭✭Anan1


    Yes, I work in the industry but I don't see what that has to do with it?
    It means you have a vested interest.
    How many day to day consumer items are manufactured in Ireland? In fairness, if Ireland didn't import these goods, we wouldn't have TV's, Radios, Cookers, shower units...........the list is endless.

    We'd be back to the times of spuds and wattle and daub homes.
    Nobody's suggesting that we stop importing consumer goods. I just don't think our government should be encouraging it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,812 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    I have to disagree with you there - it's of huge benefit to the thousands of PAYE workers who are employed in the motor trade. If these people were to be made redundant the Taxpayer would end up footing a bill of hundreds of millions to support these people.
    There have been hundreds of thousands of people let go from other sectors why should one get preferential treatment? We should have been supporting what's left of out native industries not services for imported items.
    Also, the scrappage scheme has encouraged alot of people to buy low emission cars. Explain to me how that's not good for the enviroment?

    A good quality 10 year old car would have at least another 5 years life when maintained correctly.
    This car has been made so can be taken as starting out at neutral emissions, this car then needs to be scrapped which produces pollution, then the car that was ordered needs to be manufactured (there's no overstock of cars any more after all the plant closures over the last few years), this new car then needs to be transported half way around the world to Ireland(or at least several thousand KM from Europe).

    Say that the average scrapped car was a 30mpg car and replaced with a 60mpg car. We've reduced Irish emissions by 50% but created a huge amount of pollution elsewhere to do this. How many miles will the new car have to be driven before the energy used in it's production is recovered and will any of these cars actually make that mileage?

    How is this good for the environment?
    People here are trying to encourage buying Irish products, but you've just claimed that one of the biggest Irish made items out there are poorly made?

    Not only that, but if people had have paid more attention to what they were spending their money on in the first place, they wouldn't have to worry about this problem.

    It also wouldn't have kept half as many people in employment, which goes back to my first point above.

    The houses where built to spec but the spec wasn't the best or anywhere near good enough, which is partly how we got to be in the state we're in.
    That's someone's personal choice - if they want to buy a new car instead of building an extension then it's up to them to do so.

    Alot of people put money into home improvements instead of buying a car, so this is kind of a moot point.

    People can buy what they want. But then every industry should have gotten similar deals as the motor trade. It would have been just as easy to do VAT refunds for building renovations and it would have kept honest tax paying builders working.
    Again, the Irish motor trade provides direct employment in Ireland. Thousands of people in fact. Just because car's aren't built in Ireland anymore does not mean that the motor trade is useless.

    I can also assure you that the majority of people who bought a new car in the last two years more than likely did so with their own cash. The banks in Ireland simply do not have the money to lend.


    Again, I don't see your point. We DO have a Motor Industry in Ireland. While it is not involved in the manufacturing end of things, it is involved in the sales, and maintenance end of things.

    The motor industry currently provides thousands of jobs but not for long. Now the scappage is gone there are big changes on the way and the only benefit we'll have is loads of 11 reg cars that'll all be wrecked in a few years as they aren't at all suitable for the use their being used for.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Eoin wrote: »
    I imagine it's also kept a lot of people in employment as well.

    Yes, in Germany, France, Italy, Japan and mostly Korea.
    Some of these cars where on sale for E8k, what will they be worth in 10 years time?
    The greens have created the throwaway car culture, buy it, drive it for 5 years, another guy will have it for tuppence, as soon as anything major goes wrong, such as DMF cutch, injectors, ECU (and they WILL go wrong, these are McCars, made crappily and cheaply) they are not worth repairing, so scrap them for another McCar.
    Of course making and recycling all these cars will produce HUGE levels of CO2, but that will be just another reason to slap more tax onto petrol.
    It is an environmental disaster waiting to happen, it does nothing but to take a lot of good old cars out of the market and replacing them with cars that have a life expectency of 10 years.
    I hate the greens for this, I hate their smugness, their arrogance, their stupidity, but most of all I hate their hypocricy, the sellout of the environment, for what I don't know, because people have seen them for the weasly, lying bastards they are and kicked them out, hopefully never to be seen again.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Yes, in Germany, France, Italy, Japan and mostly Korea.
    Some of these cars where on sale for E8k, what will they be worth in 10 years time?
    The greens have created the throwaway car culture, buy it, drive it for 5 years, another guy will have it for tuppence, as soon as anything major goes wrong, such as DMF cutch, injectors, ECU (and they WILL go wrong, these are McCars, made crappily and cheaply) they are not worth repairing, so scrap them for another McCar.
    Of course making and recycling all these cars will produce HUGE levels of CO2, but that will be just another reason to slap more tax onto petrol.
    It is an environmental disaster waiting to happen, it does nothing but to take a lot of good old cars out of the market and replacing them with cars that have a life expectency of 10 years.
    I hate the greens for this, I hate their smugness, their arrogance, their stupidity, but most of all I hate their hypocricy, the sellout of the environment, for what I don't know, because people have seen them for the weasly, lying bastards they are and kicked them out, hopefully never to be seen again.

    Nice rant:)!

    I do think it is ironic that in the quest to force car manfacturers to fit expensive technology that will cause more hassle and cost than the fuel savings available, that cars will now have a shorter working life, meaning more pollution overall due to the fact that more cars will have to be made and more cars will be scapped.

    It is a shame to think that so many cars from the 90s, when reliability was never better, are now gone to the crusher because of some ill thought out scheme:(!


  • Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭gk5000


    It's going to be hilarious when people try to trade these cars in after a year or two. I spoke to one dealer recently who said he doesn't see Megane's as 21k cars anymore, he sees them as 15k cars, and reckons he'd give 10k for one a year old.
    How would the resale value of a Megane be any worse than say an equivalent Ford or Opel?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Because people think they're getting a great deal. They're buying a car which is worth 21k for 15k, so they think they'll get a few years of depreciation free motoring. This isn't peculiar to Renault in case anyone thinks I'm having a go at Renault - it's the same with all scrappage deals. Personally, I think fair play to Renault for getting so many cars on the road!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,540 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Because the vast, vast majority of people who have been buying Renaults over the past two years getting four to five grand off their car! Even before there was scrappage, Renault had invented their own "scrappage" scheme (dealers were free to sell on the cars that were being "scrapped" under Renault's own one though!), which actually was far more generous than the Government's one.


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