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  • #2762
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    MJohnston wrote: »
    You see plenty of the latter though?

    Not when the tackle is completed, its a penalty offense. If the tackler doesn't hold on though, then the tackle isn't completed and you can keep going.


  • #2763
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Not when the tackle is completed, its a penalty offense. If the tackler doesn't hold on though, then the tackle isn't completed and you can keep going.

    I asked this in the other aws thread but what actually constitutes held in the tackle and at what point does it become not releasing? I was watching Damien McKenzie the other day and h just kept getting up and running when he was tackled. Until a prop sat on him.


  • #2764
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,999 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    pickarooney wrote: »
    I asked this in the other aws thread but what actually constitutes held in the tackle and at what point does it become not releasing? I was watching Damien McKenzie the other day and h just kept getting up and running when he was tackled. Until a prop sat on him.

    If a player is tackled and held on the ground I don't think they have the right to get up and run again. If they're not held then it's not a tackle.

    Connacht did this a lot against Leinster in the RDS I noticed (and I'm sure do it a lot against other teams too), their players would crawl a bit on the ground after the tackle to eke out a few more yards, it was less blatant than actually getting up and running though.


  • #2765
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    The tackle is completed when the players knee touches the ground. If he's still held at that point he can't get back up unless he releases the ball, gets back up and then regathers the ball. At least that's my understanding of it anyway.


  • #2766
    Quintis
    Registered Users Posts: 671 ✭✭✭Quintis


    Question, today in Highlanders v Tahs, Foley kicked forward in the 22, it was blocked/ricocheted off Whitelock's foot, went forward where Buckman gathered and scored, they checked to see if Buckman was ahead of Whitelock when he blocked from the kick? Why would there be offside here, is it not open play, does a block from a kick create an offside line?


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  • #2767
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,967 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Yes it does

    You're offside in open play if you're ahead of your team mate who last played the ball.

    Happens from a knock on too


  • #2768
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,999 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Quintis wrote: »
    Question, today in Highlanders v Tahs, Foley kicked forward in the 22, it was blocked/ricocheted off Whitelock's foot, went forward where Buckman gathered and scored, they checked to see if Buckman was ahead of Whitelock when he blocked from the kick? Why would there be offside here, is it not open play, does a block from a kick create an offside line?

    You can never play the ball while ahead of a teammate who has just played the ball himself.

    Edited my original post because you can legally be ahead of the ball at a ruck or maul of course, maybe one or two other situations.


  • #2769
    b.gud
    Registered Users Posts: 4,786 ✭✭✭b.gud


    Watching the Rebels v Crusaders when Mo'unga was taking the conversion he needed someone to hold the ball so it didn't fall off the tee. The person bringing on the tee seemed to signal for someone to come over and do it at which point the hooker came over to hold it. Is there a law that says it has to be a player that holds the ball? It seemed like it would be easier if the tee carrier did it


  • #2770
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    b.gud wrote:
    Watching the Rebels v Crusaders when Mo'unga was taking the conversion he needed someone to hold the ball so it didn't fall off the tee. The person bringing on the tee seemed to signal for someone to come over and do it at which point the hooker came over to hold it. Is there a law that says it has to be a player that holds the ball? It seemed like it would be easier if the tee carrier did it
    It has to be a player who is part of the 15 in the game. Can't be sub/medic who comes on with a tee. It's the same with a penalty and considering the game is still on if a penalty is missed and ball remains in play then it should be the same with a conversion.


  • #2771
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,956 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    It has to be a player who is part of the 15 in the game. Can't be sub/medic who comes on with a tee. It's the same with a penalty and considering the game is still on if a penalty is missed and ball remains in play then it should be the same with a conversion.

    In the good on days before all these new fangled kicking tees, he who carried the bucket of sand or sawdust got to hold the ball for the kicker :)


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  • #2772
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    http://www.worldrugby.org/news/266973

    2. Law 20.9 (b) Handling in the scrum – exception
    The number eight shall be allowed to pick the ball from the feet of the second-rows.
    Rationale: To promote continuity.

    Can the 8 now pick the ball and the scrum continue to drive forward?

    3. Law 20.8 (b) Striking after the throw-in
    Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front-row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball. One player from the team who put the ball in must strike for the ball.
    Sanction: Free-kick
    Rationale: To promote a fair contest for possession.

    Can anyone clarify this one I don't understand the "One player from the team who put the ball in must strike for the ball."

    4. Law 15.4 (c)
    The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then can only play from their own side of the tackle “gate”.
    Rationale: To make the tackle/ruck simpler for players and referees and more consistent with the rest of that law.


    5. Law 16 Ruck
    A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside lines are created. Players on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives, no hands can be used.
    Rationale: To make the ruck simpler for players and referees.

    Aka the anti Italian law is very interesting .


    6. Law 16.4: Other ruck offences
    A player must not kick the ball out of a ruck. The player can only hook it in a backwards motion.
    Sanction: Penalty
    Rationale: To promote player welfare and to make it consistent with scrum law.


    Boo I loved this law


  • #2773
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    LeinsterDub wrote: »

    3. Law 20.8 (b) Striking after the throw-in
    Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front-row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball. One player from the team who put the ball in must strike for the ball.
    Sanction: Free-kick
    Rationale: To promote a fair contest for possession.

    Can anyone clarify this one I don't understand the "One player from the team who put the ball in must strike for the ball."

    Some teams don't strike or hook the ball at all in the scrum. Because the put in is so crooked they instead put the ball in and then drive over the ball. Greg Feek loves doing this. It leads to a lot of resets in situations where the scrum goes down but it would have been playable had the ball been hooked.

    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    6. Law 16.4: Other ruck offences
    A player must not kick the ball out of a ruck. The player can only hook it in a backwards motion.
    Sanction: Penalty
    Rationale: To promote player welfare and to make it consistent with scrum law.


    Boo I loved this law

    Well. There goes my entire career.


  • #2774
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Interesting questions.

    I presume any player in the front row can hook the ball back. That is what it refers to by 'one player' from the front row.

    The question about the number 8 picking up the ball - I'd imagine once he picks up the ball a new offside line is created and the opposition are free to tackle him.

    I didn't know you couldn't kick from the ruck any longer. But what do they mean by 'hook back' being allowed?


  • #2775
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,500 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    I didn't know you couldn't kick from the ruck any longer. But what do they mean by 'hook back' being allowed?

    Presumably the difference is 'kick from' is an aimless kick that goes flying out of a ruck, 'hook back' is pulling the ball back with the foot to a place where you (or maybe someone behind you) can pick it up?


  • #2776
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,971 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    Interesting questions.

    I presume any player in the front row can hook the ball back. That is what it refers to by 'one player'

    The question about the number 8 picking up the ball - I'd imagine once he picks up the ball a new offside line is created and the opposition are free to tackle him.

    I didn't know you couldn't kick from the ruck any longer. But what do they mean by 'hook back' being allowed?

    The true meaning of Rucking - Dragging the ball back to your own side using your foot..

    The question will be , are you allowed to "ruck" the ball if there's a body in the way?? :-)


  • #2777
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Presumably the difference is 'kick from' is an aimless kick that goes flying out of a ruck, 'hook back' is pulling the ball back with the foot to a place where you (or maybe someone behind you) can pick it up?

    Indeed. Like a scrum half would.


  • #2778
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I've actually been penalised, much to my dismay, for kicking the ball out of a ruck before. Because rucking is of course using the heel and we've just been messing with the whole thing for years.

    But I am genuinely sad that its gone now because for people like me; who don't have the brains, speed, size, skill, power, technique, hands, feet, carrying or step to be otherwise effective back rows, we now have nothing left.


  • #2779
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,999 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    5. Law 16 Ruck
    A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside lines are created. Players on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives, no hands can be used.
    Rationale: To make the ruck simpler for players and referees.

    So what's the difference here, previously it took two players over the ball to form a ruck?


  • #2780
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    So what's the difference here, previously it took two players over the ball to form a ruck?

    Yes

    Good bye 0-ball.


  • #2781
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,971 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    4. Law 15.4 (c)
    The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then can only play from their own side of the tackle “gate”.
    Rationale: To make the tackle/ruck simpler for players and referees and more consistent with the rest of that law.

    So Green tackles Blue and ends up on ground on the Blue side of the ball. Under existing rules if they stood up immediately and if no other Blue player was present they could play the ball there and then. With this new rule they have to stand-up and then step back to the Green side before they play the ball, suspect that will give undue advantage to the attack.


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  • #2782
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    So what's the difference here, previously it took two players over the ball to form a ruck?

    I'd imagine it is to get a player (trying to win possession back at a ruck - think of Sam Warburton) to release the ball straight away once a support player arrives. Upto this Warburton and others were able to remain competing for the ball at the ruck and thus slowing down the play. It is a very good rule.


  • #2783
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,500 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Yes

    Good bye 0-ball.

    Should call this one the Eddie Jones Memorial Law.

    Memorial because he died after crying all of the water out of his body.


  • #2784
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,999 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    I'd imagine it is to get a player (trying to win possession back at a ruck - think of Sam Warburton) to release the ball straight away once a support player arrives. Upto this Warburton and others were able to remain competing for the ball at the ruck and thus slowing down the play. It is a very good rule.

    I don't really like it. Much prefer that if you latch on before the ruck forms you have the rights to hang onto it.


  • #2785
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Presumably the difference is 'kick from' is an aimless kick that goes flying out of a ruck, 'hook back' is pulling the ball back with the foot to a place where you (or maybe someone behind you) can pick it up?

    You're only allowed accixentally kick your own players in the head now.


  • #2786
    Tigerandahalf
    Registered Users Posts: 7,811 ✭✭✭Tigerandahalf


    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I don't really like it. Much prefer that if you latch on before the ruck forms you have the rights to hang onto it.

    It was killing the game. Slowing it down too much. It is noteworthy that Warburton and others like him aren't having the same influence over games.


  • #2787
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,085 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I've actually been penalised, much to my dismay, for kicking the ball out of a ruck before. Because rucking is of course using the heel and we've just been messing with the whole thing for years.

    But I am genuinely sad that its gone now because for people like me; who don't have the brains, speed, size, skill, power, technique, hands, feet, carrying or step to be otherwise effective back rows, we now have nothing left.

    Welcome to the second row.


  • #2788
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,458 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    I'd imagine it is to get a player (trying to win possession back at a ruck - think of Sam Warburton) to release the ball straight away once a support player arrives. Upto this Warburton and others were able to remain competing for the ball at the ruck and thus slowing down the play. It is a very good rule.
    Interested Observer wrote: »
    I don't really like it. Much prefer that if you latch on before the ruck forms you have the rights to hang onto it.
    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    It was killing the game. Slowing it down too much. It is noteworthy that Warburton and others like him aren't having the same influence over games.


    Is the "hands" part really going to make a massive difference to how it's currently reffed anyway?

    Currently, if you've hands on before the opposition arrive, then the ref will allow you try to play the ball, and once the generally with call some derivative of "hands away now/leave it" or else will award a penalty against the ball carried for holding on.

    I can't imagine many refs just blowing for penalties without calling "hands away" first. If someone's gotten their paws on the ball before the opposition get there, but have been prevented from playing it, then surely holding on still will apply.


  • #2789
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tigerandahalf wrote: »
    I'd imagine it is to get a player (trying to win possession back at a ruck - think of Sam Warburton) to release the ball straight away once a support player arrives. Upto this Warburton and others were able to remain competing for the ball at the ruck and thus slowing down the play. It is a very good rule.

    No, what you're describing is actually illegal already, they just get away with it.

    It's nothing to do with that. It's to make it easier for referees and players to tell where the offside line is.


  • #2790
    emmet02
    Registered Users Posts: 24,816 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    http://www.worldrugby.org/news/266973

    2. Law 20.9 (b) Handling in the scrum – exception
    The number eight shall be allowed to pick the ball from the feet of the second-rows.
    Rationale: To promote continuity.

    Can the 8 now pick the ball and the scrum continue to drive forward?

    3. Law 20.8 (b) Striking after the throw-in
    Once the ball touches the ground in the tunnel, any front-row player may use either foot to try to win possession of the ball. One player from the team who put the ball in must strike for the ball.
    Sanction: Free-kick
    Rationale: To promote a fair contest for possession.

    Can anyone clarify this one I don't understand the "One player from the team who put the ball in must strike for the ball."

    4. Law 15.4 (c)
    The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then can only play from their own side of the tackle “gate”.
    Rationale: To make the tackle/ruck simpler for players and referees and more consistent with the rest of that law.


    5. Law 16 Ruck
    A ruck commences when at least one player is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler). At this point the offside lines are created. Players on their feet may use their hands to pick up the ball as long as this is immediate. As soon as an opposition player arrives, no hands can be used.
    Rationale: To make the ruck simpler for players and referees.

    Aka the anti Italian law is very interesting .


    6. Law 16.4: Other ruck offences
    A player must not kick the ball out of a ruck. The player can only hook it in a backwards motion.
    Sanction: Penalty
    Rationale: To promote player welfare and to make it consistent with scrum law.


    Boo I loved this law

    Someone must hook the ball. It cannot be thrown into the second row's feet.

    It reads like an attempt to just drive over the ball is not allowed either, a clean hook must at least be attempted.


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  • #2791
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,971 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    emmet02 wrote: »
    Someone must hook the ball. It cannot be thrown into the second row's feet.

    It reads like an attempt to just drive over the ball is not allowed either, a clean hook must at least be attempted.

    I don't think so - Stepping over the ball on the drive is "winning" the ball.

    This is designed to stop those resets where the ball sits in the middle of the tunnel with no one willing or able to strike for it , now it'll be a free-kick (which oddly enough will more often than not be another scrum so I don't think they will get quite the enhancement they are looking for)

    The other change for the scrum is the one that allows the scrum-half to stand on his side of the centre line on put in.
    1. Law 20.5 and 20.6 (d)
    No signal from referee. The scrum-half must throw the ball in straight but is allowed to align their shoulder on the middle line of the scrum, therefore allowing them to stand a shoulder width towards their own side of the middle line.
    Rationale: To promote scrum stability, a fair contest for possession while also giving the advantage to the team throwing in (non-offending team).

    How the above promotes "a fair contest for possession" I fail to see.

    So they have to put it in "straight" but the alignment makes it all but impossible for a strike against the head , you could still in theory be "driven" off your own ball , but the strike against the head is dead.


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