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new powers

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  • #92
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    You would say that.

    You have stated on these forums that you have no interest in applying for regular or the reserve so my question is why post so negatively on a subject you know little about , obviously have such a high degree of contempt for and fail to take on board the well informed opinion of serving members.
    Why have you not applied??


  • #93
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    Absolute rubbish. Another scare mongering comment from the ill informed. Reserves have never been used to undermine anything. We have never taken overtime from regulars , we have nothing to do with pay scales . Why do GRs have to continually hear this type of fuzzy logic . No one with a clear understanding of what the Reseves do would make such a comment and expect to be taken seriously
    Raider190 wrote: »
    Suprised at this canyon86 as you are waiting to join the GR. Is this really what you think ??????

    Well raider,

    Look at it this way, give all reserves full public order powers, that will greatly reduce the need for X number of full timers to be on shift, obviously some ft will be on duty, but it will reduce,

    To the public they won't notice any different, this is what agree,
    Also the student gardai are getting shafted with pay, no question, and this is as Santa Cruz says similar to nurses etc, or do you believe the pay etc is fantastic raider?

    My intentions for joining the reserves are outlined previously,


  • #94
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    Well raider,

    Look at it this way, give all reserves full public order powers, that will greatly reduce the need for X number of full timers to be on shift, obviously some ft will be on duty, but it will reduce,

    To the public they won't notice any different, this is what agree,
    Also the student gardai are getting shafted with pay, no question, and this is as Santa Cruz says similar to nurses etc, or do you believe the pay etc is fantastic raider?

    My intentions for joining the reserves are outlined previously,

    No disrespect intended but this exactly what I mean by opinions from unqualified sources. Public order is just a small part of what the regular do. What about theft, misuse of drugs act,, robbery, UT, fraud,
    assault, serious assault, sexual assault etc


  • #95
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    No disrespect intended but this exactly what I mean by opinions from unqualified sources. Public order is just a small part of what the regular do. What about theft, misuse of drugs act,, robbery, UT, fraud,
    assault, serious assault, sexual assault etc

    I was picking public order as an example, just for the sake of a discussion,

    Your letting on you are a commissioner talking down on people!

    You really give off an arrogant attitude raider I ll be honest,


  • #96
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    No disrespect intended but this exactly what I mean by opinions from unqualified sources. Public order is just a small part of what the regular do. What about theft, misuse of drugs act,, robbery, UT, fraud,
    assault, serious assault, sexual assault etc

    Any comment to make on the second half of my previous post?


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  • #97
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    I was picking public order as an example, just for the sake of a discussion,

    Your letting on you are a commissioner talking down on people!

    You really give off an arrogant attitude raider I ll be honest,

    I am sorry you feel that way but let's state the clear facts here. You are not a member of AGS so your opinions are your own and not based on your training or experience. I have been a member fir the past 6 years contributed thousands of hours and gained a variety of experience within this time so would be considered to reasonably knowledgeable on the operation of the
    Garda Reserve
    If you consider me to be arrogant because I present the facts then if you are successful in joining the reserve you will be instructed by similar individuals who have more experience than you. Are they too to be considered arrogant????!!


  • #98
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    Any comment to make on the second half of my previous post?

    Pay scales have nothing to do with the Garda Reserve this is the governments remit and dictated by Europe.

    The simple truth with the Reserve there are more good people out there protecting good people against bad people. If your mother, sister or daughter were been attacked would you care who it was who came to their aid. Regular member or a reserve. No you would not


  • #99
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    I am sorry you feel that way but let's state the clear facts here. You are not a member of AGS so your opinions are your own and not based on your training or experience. I have been a member fir the past 6 years contributed thousands of hours and gained a variety of experience within this time so would be considered to reasonably knowledgeable on the operation of the
    Garda Reserve
    If you consider me to be arrogant because I present the facts then if you are successful in joining the reserve you will be instructed by similar individuals who have more experience than you. Are they too to be considered arrogant????!!

    You ll have to start reading posts correctly and not looking for opportunities to get on your high horse and talk down on people,

    Clearly stated I was using public order as an example,
    I won't be changing my opinions by listening to you, and I won't be talked down to either,


  • #100
    Mc Jakester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭Mc Jakester


    If and when we have to make an arrest!
    and it goes to court. "When we get P.O powers" if its related to that!....
    We as members will have to give evidence being the arresting member or as a witness...
    We will be summoned to court, your employer will have to abide to the summons. Fact!
    Same with fcps, if they are not paid!! off to court you go...
    From submitting a fine it takes no less then 5/6months to go to court! If not paid by the defendant...
    Thanks to all members giving up our free time over the years. To make some difference out there!
    "What goes on behind closed doors as a members of AGS... it's hard to explain to the public that is not inn AGS. Which to a degree we can't...!
    Thanks once again guys....
    Lets keep on track, no fighting...


  • #101
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    You ll have to start reading posts correctly and not looking for opportunities to get on your high horse and talk down on people,

    Clearly stated I was using public order as an example,
    I won't be changing my opinions by listening to you, and I won't be talked down to either,
    I am not talking down to anyone but you have no policing experience and have yet to be offered a position as a Garda reserve I am clearly stating the facts and whether or not you change your opinions well that is your concern .
    If you are serious about joining the reserve I suggest you research exactly what it is we do and if you are not willing to accept a qualified opinion again that is your prerogative but an open mind and the ability to clearly define facts is s key quality both for a member of the regular and Reserve also a must for completing the hard training ahead of you should you be accepted.


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  • #102
    b_mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 155 ✭✭b_mac


    Mc Jakester wrote: »
    If and when we have to make an arrest!
    and it goes to court. "When we get P.O powers" if its related to that!....
    We as members will have to give evidence being the arresting member or as a witness...
    We will be summoned to court, your employer will have to abide to the summons

    Thought as much.

    Would Chief Superintendent Raider care to explain why he says otherwise?


  • #103
    Santa Cruz
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭Santa Cruz


    Raider190 wrote: »
    You have seem??? You are not a reserve or a full time member so how have you seen anything. If a GR makes an arrest it does not mean they have to turn up in court. Amy regular or reserve will know of the procedure I mean and this just reinforces my opinion the you are offering opinions on a subject which you are unqualified to do so.

    Firstly you don't know anything about my career experience so you don't know what I have seen or not seen. Secondly if a Garda or a Reserve Garda (when they have powers of arrest) make an arrest and the case is not dealt with by a guilty plea it will be necessary for the arresting member to attend District court to prove the case. In addition if there is a subsequent appeal to the Circuit Court the presence of the member will also be required. I have seen cases drag through the District and Circuit Court from months in to years due to adjournments, defendants failing to turn up etc. I cannot see how a Reserve will be able to get time off rom their full time job for these court appearances.


  • #104
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Moderator post:

    Warning issued for baiting/sniping.

    Don't get personal. Attack the post, never the poster.

    No further comment on-thread about this post, please and thanks.

    Back on topic...
    b_mac wrote: »
    Thought as much.

    Would Chief Superintendent Raider care to explain why he says otherwise?


  • #105
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    I am not talking down to anyone but you have no policing experience and have yet to be offered a position as a Garda reserve I am clearly stating the facts and whether or not you change your opinions well that is your concern .
    If you are serious about joining the reserve I suggest you research exactly what it is we do and if you are not willing to accept a qualified opinion again that is your prerogative but an open mind and the ability to clearly define facts is s key quality both for a member of the regular and Reserve also a must for completing the hard training ahead of you should you be accepted.

    I hope all GR aren't as up themselves as you! "I suggest" who are you to suggest anything to me?
    You are a GR Raider not a bloody commissioner! Get over yourself !!!!


  • #106
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Moderator post:

    Warning issued for baiting/sniping.

    Don't get personal. Attack the post, never the poster.

    No further comment on-thread about this post, please and thanks.

    Back on topic...
    Canyon86 wrote: »
    I hope all GR aren't as up themselves as you! "I suggest" who are you to suggest anything to me?
    You are a GR Raider not a bloody commissioner! Get over yourself !!!!


  • #107
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Santa Cruz wrote: »
    Firstly you don't know anything about my career experience so you don't know what I have seen or not seen. Secondly if a Garda or a Reserve Garda (when they have powers of arrest) make an arrest and the case is not dealt with by a guilty plea it will be necessary for the arresting member to attend District court to prove the case. In addition if there is a subsequent appeal to the Circuit Court the presence of the member will also be required. I have seen cases drag through the District and Circuit Court from months in to years due to adjournments, defendants failing to turn up etc. I cannot see how a Reserve will be able to get time off rom their full time job for these court appearances.

    I have completed duties at both aviva and croke park and have never seen any civilians attend the pre match briefing so unless you are privy to the events rostering procedure which is completed by senior Garda management I cannot give credence to your comments.

    With regard to court appearances you are correct however approx 16% of public order cases result in the suspected offender going not guilty the remaining 84% go with a guilty plea. This is dealt with by means of a court presenter , a Garda sgt in most cases . This procedure was introduced some time ago in order to reduce the time spent in court by arresting Gardai . With regard to employers supporting their employees with time off I think you would surprised at the level of support some gr's receive from their respective employers. I know from a number of colleagues they have found no problem at all and in fact have been facilitated greatly in both court appearances and time off for the many courses which reserves are offered within AGS. Remember there are a lot of public spirited people who value what the GR do and commend their self sacrifice and dedication to their duties. Perhaps if we had more supporters rather than those who prefere to offer their ill informed opinions based on here say and google gathered information our society would be a better place for us all.


  • #108
    bluetop
    Registered Users Posts: 383 ✭✭bluetop


    All this talk about what if's, the powers have not been granted as yet so what is the point in this discussion its all hearsay and what do we know about hearsay.

    As for having the powers and not using them well that will be down to the individual "remember" one thing about this when and i say when and if it happens you dont exercise your powers FT might be a little bit miffed that you are leaving them still with all the work load now that you have got the powers, so thats another thing in the pot.

    As for having to do reports etc if you are worth your weight as a GR your colleagues will only be too happy to help and guide you in the way things need to be written, so your not on your own, and a lot of court stuff in now handled by court presenters.

    As i have said about everything is up in the air so talking about it and even arguing about it is pointless, why not wait and see what come is it the cart before the horse as it always is.


  • #109
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    bluetop wrote: »
    All this talk about what if's, the powers have not been granted as yet so what is the point in this discussion its all hearsay and what do we know about hearsay.

    As for having the powers and not using them well that will be down to the individual "remember" one thing about this when and i say when and if it happens you dont exercise your powers FT might be a little bit miffed that you are leaving them still with all the work load now that you have got the powers, so thats another thing in the pot.

    As for having to do reports etc if you are worth your weight as a GR your colleagues will only be too happy to help and guide you in the way things need to be written, so your not on your own, and a lot of court stuff in now handled by court presenters.

    As i have said about everything is up in the air so talking about it and even arguing about it is pointless, why not wait and see what come is it the cart before the horse as it always is.

    Stated from a position of experience. Well said blue top.

    Officially have been inform the process has begun and it won't be long before the commissioner signs off.


  • #110
    mfergus
    Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭mfergus


    Raider190 wrote: »

    With regard to court appearances you are correct however approx 16% of public order cases result in the suspected offender going not guilty the remaining 84% go with a guilty plea. ll.

    Did you just make up these statistics or is that how the 100% is actually broken down?

    Edit: if on the off chance you didn't just make it up, can you provide a link? Or is this one of these "experience" things?


  • #111
    Kaizersoze81
    Registered Users Posts: 1,238 ✭✭✭Kaizersoze81


    Raider190 wrote: »
    With regard to court appearances you are correct however approx 16% of public order cases result in the suspected offender going not guilty the remaining 84% go with a guilty plea. This is dealt with by means of a court presenter , a Garda sgt in most cases . This procedure was introduced some time ago in order to reduce the time spent in court by arresting Gardai .

    Wrong. They might go guilty, but they'll do it after the solicitors have looked for a hearing date. This requires the guard to attend court in anticipation that a hearing will be taking place. The vast majority of them then plead guilty on the hearing date, thus wasting the guards time, and making more money for the solicitors. The system is a joke. If somebody looks for a hearing date then they should be presumed they are going ahead with it, and not have the opportunity to plead guilty at the last minute. Its a handy earner for the solicitors, thats all.


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  • #112
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    mfergus wrote: »
    Did you just make up these statistics or is that how the 100% is actually broken down?

    Edit: if on the off chance you didn't just make it up, can you provide a link? Or is this one of these "experience" things?

    If you are a member am sure you will know where to research the facts


  • #113
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Kaizersoze81 wrote: »
    Wrong. They might go guilty, but they'll do it after the solicitors have looked for a hearing date. This requires the guard to attend court in anticipation that a hearing will be taking place. The vast majority of them then plead guilty on the hearing date, thus wasting the guards tvtime, and making more money for the solicitors. The system is a joke. If somebody looks for a hearing date then they should be presumed they are going ahead with it, and not have the opportunity to plead guilty at the last minute. Its a handy earner for the solicitors, thats all.

    Sorry dont agree have been involved in many Po cases and have rarely had to appear or has my full time colleague. Maybe it's a case that I have been lucky or the offenders have been co operative in putting their hands up and going guilty


  • #114
    Shield
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Help & Feedback Category Moderators Posts: 9,631 CMod ✭✭✭✭Shield


    Moderator post:

    Folks can we please get this back on-topic instead of talking about stats, where to find them internally, and so on.

    This thread is (I would have imagined) about the new powers Garda Reserve will have, what they will be/should be, whether serving GR and/or regular full-time members are happy with this, etc..

    Back let's get this back into a thread that kinda, sorta resembles the above?

    Thanks, and back on topic please.


  • #115
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    I for one will be delighted when the new powers are finally devolved.


  • #116
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    mfergus wrote: »
    Did you just make up these statistics or is that how the 100% is actually broken down?

    Edit: if on the off chance you didn't just make it up, can you provide a link? Or is this one of these "experience" things?

    No link available I am sorry wish there was but not possible


  • #117
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Kaizersoze81 wrote: »
    Wrong. They might go guilty, but they'll do it after the solicitors have looked for a hearing date. This requires the guard to attend court in anticipation that a hearing will be taking place. The vast majority of them then plead guilty on the hearing date, thus wasting the guards time, and making more money for the solicitors. The system is a joke. If somebody looks for a hearing date then they should be presumed they are going ahead with it, and not have the opportunity to plead guilty at the last minute. Its a handy earner for the solicitors, thats all.

    Do agree on your point regarding solicitors . The minimum rate is I believe 250 euros for first hearing and 50 euro after that . I would assume it changes depending on which court district , circuit etc


  • #118
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    Well raider,

    Look at it this way, give all reserves full public order powers, that will greatly reduce the need for X number of full timers to be on shift, obviously some ft will be on duty, but it will reduce,

    To the public they won't notice any different, this is what agree,
    Also the student gardai are getting shafted with pay, no question, and this is as Santa Cruz says similar to nurses etc, or do you believe the pay etc is fantastic raider?

    My intentions for joining the reserves are outlined previously,
    As you are no doubt aware the soon to be devolved powers are in fact full public order powers

    I would be very interested for you to expand on this why the full time requirement would reduce. If the average unit is say for instance 15 members or so depending on what station you are in and the average number of reserves for that unit is say 4 and those reserve comply to the minimum hours required of 208 per year and report for duty say 2 days per month how will this reduce the number of full timers required.

    As for the public I would never underestimate them they know exactly what the difference between a regular and the reserve.

    Let's take the rate of pay. Given that the average age of a trainee Garda may be somewhere between 18 and 28 their expectations of achieving a high salary may not be the same for some older age groups. Taking into account that any individual who puts themselves in harms way in order to protect our citizens should be given the rewards that such commitment deserves it is never going to happen. Any career which involves a vocation will always be abused by the powers that be. So no I do not believe the pay is fantastic but if you speak to any professional Garda the pay is not the driving motive to doing the job. You have stated that you are attempting to join the reserve and for our services we are paid nothing so you must have seriously thought why exactly you are willing to put yourself in harms way. I know I seriously thought about it before I joined


  • #119
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    I would be very interested for you to expand on this . If the average unit is say for instance 15 members or so depending on what station you are in and the average number of reserves for that unit is say 4 and those reserve comply to the minimum hours required of 208 per year and report for duty say 2 days per month how will this reduce the number of full timers required.

    Raider I made a promise to myself not to respond to your comments as I ll end up losing my cool and getting banned,you ll understand this

    regards

    Canyon


  • #120
    Raider190
    Site Banned Posts: 819 ✭✭✭Raider190


    Canyon86 wrote: »
    Raider I made a promise to myself not to respond to your comments as I ll end up losing my cool and getting banned,you ll understand this

    regards

    Canyon

    That's fine thought you would may wish to expand on your comments as you intend to join my self and my colleagues in the Garda Reserve and I was trying to understand the logic behind them. Understand if you feel unable to justify your comments with an explanation but if you do make it you may realise that your preceptions change as I know mine certainly did. How an organisation looks from the outside to the uninitiated is totally different when you are working within it on a regular basis


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  • #121
    Canyon86
    Registered Users Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭Canyon86


    Raider190 wrote: »
    That's fine thought you would may wish to expand on your comments as you intend to join my self and my colleagues in the Garda Reserve and I was trying to understand the logic behind them. Understand if you feel unable to justify your comments with an explanation but if you do make it you may realise that your preceptions change as I know mine certainly did. How an organisation looks from the outside to the uninitiated is totally different when you are working within it on a regular basis

    Glad you understand Raider,


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