Race Relations in Ireland

Zombrex · 07-10-2009 4:32pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Your missing my point, Leona does pop music, yet she won an award, ive never seen Britney or Kylie win awards have you?? they do pop music, Leona won because she is a successful black woman.

Leona Lewis's album, which I should point out I've not listened to, is classifed by Amazon.com as R&B Soul, a genre that is covered by the MOBO awards.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/leona-lewis-R-B-Soul-Music/s?ie=UTF8&keywords=Leona%20Lewis&rh=n%3A754576%2Ck%3ALeona%20Lewis&page=1

Amy Whinehouse, a white woman, who's style of music is also covered by the MOBO awards, won the award in 2007.

Lewis is also half-black, her dad is black her mum is white (and Irish I think).

I'm really failing to see what point it is you think you are making? The MOBO awards ignore white performers who's music is not covered by genre classification? Yeah, I'll give you that one.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Amy won because she sings Jazz and blues which would be considered by the MOBOs as black music.

So that kinda blows your argument!!!

I'm failing to see how.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

And gaelic is not calling it 'white' which would be racist!!! Doesnt matter if there were no black celts!

That is just silly. No one thinks there were black Celts, yet no one find the term Gaelic football offensive. I wonder why?

You are just inventing an argument to feel oppressed by.

Fink Goddie · 07-10-2009 4:33pm

Wicknight wrote: »

I think you shot yourself in the foot there with that comment, as you highlighted black Americans have 350 years of oppression behind them, you don't whip that clean in a short period of time.

The black middle class in America has slowly begun to emerge from the end of segregation (which remember was only 40 years ago, within the lifetime of a large percentage of Americans alive today).

The black middle class only hit its stride in the late 80s and early 90s. There is an issue with downward mobility though, children of middle class black people ending up worse off than their parents, which slows the increase in the middle class.

It will be a while until a black American feels on par with a similar white America.

How did i shoot myself in the foot?? Do you live in the past and bring up things that happened years ago?
Having black award ceremonies doesnt help bridge the divide does it?

At the end of the day there would be a riot if there was a mowo awards, and that is unfair!!!

Zombrex · 07-10-2009 4:35pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Having a black awards is saying that all black people are a group or are something different to everyone else and this only makes divisions worse.

Umm, you don't seem to be over flowing with concern that things like the MOBO awards worsen stereotypes about black people.

Quite the opposite in fact, you seem to be using the MOBOs as some sort of evidence that white people are being oppressed by blacks.

Fink Goddie · 07-10-2009 4:42pm

Wicknight wrote: »

Umm, you don't seem to be over flowing with concern that things like the MOBO awards worsen stereotypes about black people.

Quite the opposite in fact, you seem to be using the MOBOs as some sort of evidence that white people are being oppressed by blacks.

Answer me this, if there was a MOWO awards would there be uproar??
If there was white history week would there be uproar??

U know there would!

Zombrex · 07-10-2009 4:46pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

How did i shoot myself in the foot?? Do you live in the past and bring up things that happened years ago?

No, but my economic situation, where I live and the lower class status of my family do.

Try telling a young black man being raised in a Chicago project because for the last 350 years his ancestors have been fighting slavery and economic oblivion, to "get over it"

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Having black award ceremonies doesnt help bridge the divide does it?

It helps gives young black men and women a feeling of representation in the wider community, rather than feeling that their culture is being ignored.

I agree entirely that it would be better if mainstream media had done this on their own, as they are now, and as such awards like the MOBO Awards would have been unnecessary.

But unfortunately that was not the case.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

At the end of the day there would be a riot if there was a mowo awards, and that is unfair!!!

You can invent hypotheticals to feel oppressed if you like but I see no evidence of that.

The Country Music Awards basically is the MoWo awards. When was the last time you saw black people rioting at the CMAs because they were racist?

Zombrex · 07-10-2009 4:50pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Answer me this, if there was a MOWO awards would there be uproar??

Possibly if it was being put on by the Arian Alliance. :rolleyes:

The issue you are ignoring, possibly out of ignorance or possibly deliberately, is that the reason why there is "uproar" over things like White Power marches is because they are organised by race hate groups, not because they are "celebrating white culture".

I think hardly anyone would bat an eyelid if "white history week" was put on if it wasn't being put on by a white supremacy group try to make a point. There isn't up roar because it is white history week, there is uproar because there is white history week presented by the KKK

But those seem to be the only groups bothered about such things.

Fink Goddie · 07-10-2009 4:53pm

Wicknight wrote: »

The Country Music Awards basically is the MoWo awards. When was the last time you saw black people rioting at the CMAs because they were racist?

No its not, there's no mention of skin its just a genre of music!

What about the BET awards, It screams of discrimination, again if we had a white entertainment awards there'd be uproar.

If black people want to be treated equally then why is it ok for them to do this and not us??

No need for a White or Black anything today!!!!!!!!!!

It should be a two way street or there'll always be a divide, double standards will breed racism!

Zombrex · 07-10-2009 5:04pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

If black people want to be treated equally then why is it ok for them to do this and not us??

No one has told you not to. You have invented "uproar" so you can feel that if you did do it you would be oppressed. You can then claim a double standard exists.

How about you put on your Music of White Origin Award show and get back to me if you are fire bombed :rolleyes:

Hazys · 07-10-2009 5:19pm

Dades wrote: »

Irish people work in shops too, you know, and drive taxis. I work in IT with a host of different nationalities. Or by proper interaction do you only mean socialise with?

I don't think the vast majority of Irish people have an issue with any nationality as long as they are pulling their weight. In the same way they don't like a Romanian who begs for a living, or a coloured lady with 6 kids in the welfare queue they will also look down on some Irish layabout smoking butts on a corner waiting for the bookies to open.

It's non-contributors to society that rile people up.

What was trying to say (and i probably wasnt all that clear) in terms of interaction, i meant that foreigners are new to this country so very few of us would have friends, neighbours, people we went to school with who were of a different race so we dont have that long term integration with them like you would have in the US or UK and that a lot of people's views are of foreigners are immature unlike in the US or UK who would have a more mutured view on race.

The main point of my OP was to ask in 10-15 years when we are more integrated with the immigrants who have arrived and sons and daughters who were born here in the past 30 years, how will we have handled race relations and where will be?

Will be still be complaing about the black irish people using the race card in 15 years? Even tho black people dont have the history of black people in the US. Will the first Irish MOBO awards cause uproar?

I feel we have a good opportunity to handle the different nationalities and races that have come to Ireland recently and integrate them well into our society unlike the US for example but sometimes I am a bit worried about the country when i see threads debating the viabilty of mix race mariages, reverse racism and black taxi drivers, again this maybe just people's immaturity to new races and it will be fizzled out as time goes on but it may not be also.

Please note I'm not advocating opening the doors to the country for every 3rd world person but handling the new people we have in our society now and i am aware racism and ignorance will always exist in some shape or form.

irish_bob · 07-10-2009 7:55pm

the MOBO awards is a silly arguement , the mobo awards are based around music which is traditonally dominated by black artists , r+b , urban , hip hop , soul music in general

apsalar · 07-10-2009 9:14pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Answer me this, if there was a MOWO awards would there be uproar??
If there was white history week would there be uproar??

U know there would!

The OP asked about race relations in Ireland! The Mobo awards are in the Uk, Black history month in the US. We live in neither of those countries and their history regards race relations and current day problems as such are complex and difficult to define. I fail to see how the development of race relations in say, the US as a result of Barack Obama's presidency have anything to do with those of present day Ireland.

asdasd · 07-10-2009 9:26pm

and that a lot of people's views are of foreigners are immature unlike in the US or UK who would have a more mutured view on race.

Neither the UK, or the US have mature views on race, or are succesful in integrating people. Think about the existence of Black and White in the US - at all. After 300 years. Ireland can be compared to the US in 300 years. I suspect that we will have no black population left - but most people will have black ancestory.

I fail to see how the development of race relations in say, the US as a result of Barack Obama's presidency have anything to do with those of present day Ireland.

The obsession with white, and black is an American thing though. If they had oppressed blue people, the OP would be starting a thread on whether we had matured to the same extent as the US with respect to blue people.

Fink Goddie · 08-10-2009 9:43am

apsalar wrote: »

The OP asked about race relations in Ireland! The Mobo awards are in the Uk, Black history month in the US. We live in neither of those countries and their history regards race relations and current day problems as such are complex and difficult to define. I fail to see how the development of race relations in say, the US as a result of Barack Obama's presidency have anything to do with those of present day Ireland.

Debates expand and develop, just because the OP was talking about Ireland doesnt mean examples from around the world cant be mentioned.

Wicknight wrote: »

No one has told you not to. You have invented "uproar" so you can feel that if you did do it you would be oppressed. You can then claim a double standard exists.

How about you put on your Music of White Origin Award show and get back to me if you are fire bombed :rolleyes:

Dont be so naive!

Zombrex · 08-10-2009 9:57am

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Dont be so naive!

Like I said the only groups who seem to go out of their way to specifically use the term "white" attached with events are white supremacists, mainly because "white culture" isn't a particularly good term as "white" culture" is far more varied than black culture in places like America and the UK.

These events are dismissed as racist, not because they have "white" in the title but because they are racist gatherings.

To extrapolate from a "White Power" match being dismissed as racist that it must be because they used the term "white" in their title, and therefore you couldn't put on a show that had "white" in the title without also being dismissed as being racist, is missing the point by a football field.

No one has any issue with white people celebrating what could be classified as "white" culture. Again when was the last time the CMA's were dismissed as being racist.

Your "Music of White Origin Award" show would only be dismissed as racist if it actually was racist, ie you were a skin head putting on an awards show about how great it is to be white.

Fink Goddie · 08-10-2009 11:18am

Wicknight wrote: »

No one has any issue with white people celebrating what could be classified as "white" culture. Again when was the last time the CMA's were dismissed as being racist.

Again The country music awards doesnt discriminate in its title, its uses the genre of music not skin colour, this is why its not seen as racist.

Hazys · 08-10-2009 2:27pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Again The country music awards doesnt discriminate in its title, its uses the genre of music not skin colour, this is why its not seen as racist.

Can we drop the MOBO talk its going nowhere.

Zombrex · 08-10-2009 2:29pm

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Again The country music awards doesnt discriminate in its title, its uses the genre of music not skin colour, this is why its not seen as racist.

No it isn't. It is not seen as racist because the event is not racist (neither is the MOBOs)

Again, if you think the only reason that events such as a White Power Rally are seen as racist is because they have "white" in the title you completely missing the point.

People are not sitting around thinking that a "European-Origin Power Rally" by Nazi skin heads is ok but as soon as they stick "White" on the flyer they have crossed the racist line.

The CMA event would not suddenly become perceived racist because they change the name to Music of White Origin awards. People (in general) are not stupid, they know when an event is actually racist, and these White Power rallies and events popular in America and Europe are seen as racist because they are being put on by race hate groups

asdasd · 08-10-2009 2:32pm

People are not sitting around thinking that a "European-Origin Power Rally" by Nazi skin heads is ok

Thats an extreme case but European is more acceptable than white.

The thing to do is celebrate European culture, or a specific part of European culture, like german irish, british etc. Paddys day, OctoberFest etc. I am sure there is even a European cultue show on somewhere in the world, or America ( or even Europe).

But you have to use those words - German, Irish, ?/basque, English, Celtic, not White.

Thats because of the lunatics who have white shows. So yeah, I agree the term white has been sullied by racists.

Zombrex · 08-10-2009 3:38pm

asdasd wrote: »

Thats an extreme case but European is more acceptable than white.

Acceptable to whom? Who are these people who cry "racist" because someone has a totally not racist event that has "white" in the title. Has that ever actually happened?

The only events I can think of that were met with cries of racism that ever used the term "white" in their events are skin heads. It is hardly shocking that these are denounced as racist events.

asdasd wrote: »

But you have to use those words - German, Irish, ?/basque, English, Celtic, not White.

Says who exactly?

asdasd · 08-10-2009 3:45pm

Says who exactly?

The powers that be. I can see your point with regards to black as used. They should use Hip Hop etc.

That said there is some logic.

European Festival of Food - Black person from France serving French food. Non conspicuous.
White festival of Food - no Black person from France. Wouldnt make sense.

The term European is not racist, therefore, while white can be.

Zombrex · 08-10-2009 4:02pm

asdasd wrote: »

The powers that be.

That is not particularly convincing.

People seem to be inventing an oppression in order to feel there is a double standard, or at the very least completely miss-understanding why people actually objected to certain events and festivals such as "White Power" festivals.

Do you have any evidence that this actually happens, that someone putting on an event that was not racist in nature but who used the term "white" was hounded for being a racist?

asdasd · 08-10-2009 4:14pm

Do you have any evidence that this actually happens, that someone putting on an event that was not racist in nature but who used the term "white" was hounded for being a racist?

Well I am not making the argument. In fact - and the English was simple - I was makign the argument that the term white could be seen as racist. So argue with the other guy.

PaulieD · 08-10-2009 5:17pm

Hazys wrote: »

Id like to see these facts and figures of the millions of Irish slaves in the carribean and the large irish-carribbean communites that evolved from it.

Sure.

By 1637 a census showed that 69% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves, which records show was a cause of concern to the English planters. But there were not enough political prisoners to supply the demand, so every petty infraction carried a sentence of transporting, and slaver gangs combed the country sides to kidnap enough people to fill out their quotas.

http://www.giftofireland.com/IrishSlaves.htm

The demand for labor on these distant plantations prompted mass kidnappings in Ireland. A pamphlet published in 1660 accused the British of sending soldiers to grab any Irish people they could in order to sell them to Barbados for profit: "It was the usual practice with Colonel Strubber, Governor of Galway, and other commanders in the said country, to take people out of their beds at night and sell them for slaves to the Indies, and by computations sold out of the said country about a thousand souls. "In Black Folk Then and Now, Du Bois concurs: "Even young Irish peasants were hunted down as men hunt down game, and were forcibly put aboard ship, and sold to plantations in Barbados."
According to Peter Berresford Ellis in To Hell or Connaught, soldiers commanded by Henry Cromwell, Oliver's son, seized a thousand "Irish wenches" to sell to Barbados. Henry justified the action by saying, "Although we must use force in taking them up , it is so much for their own good and likely to be of so great an advantage to the public." He also suggested that 2,000 Irish boys of 12 to 14 years of age could be seized for the same purpose: "Who knows but it might be a means to make them Englishmen." In 1667 Parliament passed the Act to Regulate Negroes on British Plantations. Punishments included a severe whipping for striking a Christian. For the second offense: branding on the face with a hot iron. There was no punishment for "inadvertently" whipping a slave to death.

http://irelandsown.net/afroirish.html

Hazys · 08-10-2009 5:52pm

PaulieD wrote: »

Sure.

By 1637 a census showed that 69% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves, which records show was a cause of concern to the English planters. But there were not enough political prisoners to supply the demand, so every petty infraction carried a sentence of transporting, and slaver gangs combed the country sides to kidnap enough people to fill out their quotas.

http://www.giftofireland.com/IrishSlaves.htm

The demand for labor on these distant plantations prompted mass kidnappings in Ireland. A pamphlet published in 1660 accused the British of sending soldiers to grab any Irish people they could in order to sell them to Barbados for profit: "It was the usual practice with Colonel Strubber, Governor of Galway, and other commanders in the said country, to take people out of their beds at night and sell them for slaves to the Indies, and by computations sold out of the said country about a thousand souls. "In Black Folk Then and Now, Du Bois concurs: "Even young Irish peasants were hunted down as men hunt down game, and were forcibly put aboard ship, and sold to plantations in Barbados."
According to Peter Berresford Ellis in To Hell or Connaught, soldiers commanded by Henry Cromwell, Oliver's son, seized a thousand "Irish wenches" to sell to Barbados. Henry justified the action by saying, "Although we must use force in taking them up , it is so much for their own good and likely to be of so great an advantage to the public." He also suggested that 2,000 Irish boys of 12 to 14 years of age could be seized for the same purpose: "Who knows but it might be a means to make them Englishmen." In 1667 Parliament passed the Act to Regulate Negroes on British Plantations. Punishments included a severe whipping for striking a Christian. For the second offense: branding on the face with a hot iron. There was no punishment for "inadvertently" whipping a slave to death.

http://irelandsown.net/afroirish.html

The population of Monsterrat is currently 5,000 people i have no idea what the population was in 1637 but i couldn't have been much. How this fact proves Irish people suffered more from slavery than Africans is beyond me?

Yes, its a well know fact that other races and nationalities we're used as slaves not just africans. At certain stages in every country's history slave ownership existed, Africans had slave's in Africa, Irish people had slave's in Ireland but the greatest exploit of slavery was the millions of African slaves bought, sold, killed all along the Americas and the years of opression based on the colour of their skin that followed slavery, most notably in the US but also all along the Americas.

Slavery of Africans was abolished in 1865 in the US (i have no idea what % of slaves were non-african but id be suprised if it was greater than 1% during those years) and discrimination continued for the next 100 years or so. This discrimination was primarily based on black people, yes the Anglo Saxon population looked down on the Irish, Jewish, Italians and the other immigrant groups but they werent restricted on schooling or housing or even how they were seen in a court of law like the black population was.

If you somehow honestly believe this BS that Irish people suffered worse or even equally as Africans from slavery then i think you need to take a good look at yourself in the mirror.

asdasd · 08-10-2009 8:40pm

How this fact proves Irish people suffered more from slavery than Africans is beyond me?

Aruably we suffered more from tenant farming, penal laws, and famine than Africans as a whole suffered from slavery. Although I suppose it depends on whether we include inter-African slavery. Either way our populationis less than it used to be, which is fairly unique except for Peoples who were totally victims of geneocide. like Native Americans.

Slavery of Africans was abolished in 1865 in the US (i have no idea what % of slaves were non-african but id be suprised if it was greater than 1% during those years) and discrimination continued for the next 100 years or so.

That would be relevent to race relations in Ireland, how now? the Russians discriminated against the Volga Germans. Also unrelated.

Kooli · 09-10-2009 9:49am

i hate these 'double standards' arguments that always pop up in any thread about racism (or sexism for that matter - "If that ad was about a woman there'd be uproar, so I am now offended" etc. etc.)

You cannot take these examples (MOBOs, black history month etc) out of their cultural and historical context. The reason these things were generated by the black community is because 'music' and 'history' used to be basically 'white music' and 'white history' even thought that wasn't explicit. All types of mainstream culture was biased towards the white perspective. So this was the black community's way of redressing this balance and bringing their own culture to the fore.

Because white music and white history are already the cultural norm, there would be no reason to have 'white history month' without it having a racist agenda.

The fact is that the MOBO's do NOT actually make you feel oppressed, discriminated against or belittled as a white man. You are just annoyed at the double standard. You don't watch the MOBOs and feel uncomfortable or upset that your race is not being represented. You just use it as an excuse to belittle the arguments of those who are ACTUALLY discriminated against.

Where there is a power imbalance, that is when the 'double standard' is understandable, reasonable and a good idea.

asdasd · 09-10-2009 10:06am

You cannot take these examples (MOBOs, black history month etc) out of their cultural and historical context. The reason these things were generated by the black community is because 'music' and 'history' used to be basically 'white music' and 'white history' even thought that wasn't explicit. All types of mainstream culture was biased towards the white perspective. So this was the black community's way of redressing this balance and bringing their own culture to the fore.

Define "white" music. Take into account Hungarian, Finnish, Russian, Basque, and other folk music. Discuss if any of these musics are "dominant". World dominant, or otherwise.

The fact is that the MOBO's do NOT actually make you feel oppressed, discriminated against or belittled as a white man. You are just annoyed at the double standard. You don't watch the MOBOs and feel uncomfortable or upset that your race is not being represented. You just use it as an excuse to belittle the arguments of those who are ACTUALLY discriminated against

I would say that a American Black music is far more dominant than most white music, it is in fact one of the most dominating forms of cultural expressions of music anywhere.

I'll believe the opposite when I hear Hungarian, or Scottish folk is being played from the cars of Detroit, or Baltimore - as opposed to Hip-Hop in Budapest and the Scottish highlands.

But , as I said, define 'white".

Immediately after the post where I ask how the position of blacks in America has anthing to do with Ireland you come out with spiel which makes everybody in Europe exactly the same as America. We are all whites, ignoring the specific ethnicities.

That's the real cultural imperialism of America, we abandon our own history ( lest we get angry about the English, that would be racist) and we get to feel guilt and "dominent" about a culture ( American) which is not ours.

f*ck that. American black culture is world dominent. Most of Europe is not.

Get a new script. Try and think outside sociology 101.

Kooli · 09-10-2009 10:24am

asdasd wrote: »

That's the real cultural imperialism of America, we abandon our own history ( lest we get angry about the English, that would be racist) and we get to feel guilt and "dominent" about a culture ( American) which is not ours.

.

I was talking about America and the UK as that is where the MOBOs and Black History month are. We do not have these things. People just feel they need to feel hard done by when they hear about them even though they are not part of the culture from which it has arisen.

Yes black music is now dominant. But that is now. Remember that Michael Jackson was the first black artist to be shown on MTV! And that was only when he got SO popular they didn't really have a choice!

In western countries, the dominant culture is white. If you don't agree with that, then this conversation is over frankly. So promotion of a culture which has experienced serious oppression or discrimination is not about racism, it is about providing a forum for that culture to be publicly represented and celebrated. And Black History month is about redressing the balance where the history books have essentially provided an account of history from a white perspective.

Yes there are lots of different types of 'white' music (or Music Of White Origin). Similarly there are lots of different types of 'black' music (or Music Of Black Origin). What is your point?

My point is that people CHOOSE to feel offended by such things, rather than ACTUALLY feeling hurt, dismissed or pushed aside by such things. To compare this to the actual hurt experienced by minority communities is pretty clueless. It is not 'the same'. The MOBOs are not a mainstream music awards ceremony that excludes white people (and as we've said, they actually don't exclude white people). If they were the only music awards that mattered (the equivalent of the oscars), then you might have a case.

Hazys · 09-10-2009 9:16pm

asdasd wrote: »

Aruably we suffered more from tenant farming, penal laws, and famine than Africans as a whole suffered from slavery. Fair enough but thats not what i was arguing. I was arguing what ArthurGuiness said that Irish people suffered more from slavery than africans. Although I suppose it depends on whether we include inter-African slavery. Either way our populationis less than it used to be, which is fairly unique except for Peoples who were totally victims of geneocide. like Native Americans.

Ireland's population went from around 8 million to 2 million in the space of 50 years during the famine which is pretty dramatic but again it wasnt the argument.

That would be relevent to race relations in Ireland, how now? I wasnt the one who took this thread off topic and boy how its gon off topic! the Russians discriminated against the Volga Germans. Also unrelated.

.

ArthurGuinness · 10-10-2009 2:08am

Hazys - You would make a great politician,you are great at twisting words, misquoting people, completely dismissing anything other than your views as complete rubbish and general bull****, re-read my post and my replies a couple more times, you haven't listen or tried to understand what I have had to say on this topic, you simply accused me of being a racist and tried to turn this whole thing into an argument. I look forward to seeing you on the back benches very soon.

Race Relations in Ireland

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