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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)
Comments
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Actually that is untrue. I believe ISAW resurrected it in post 1970. Marien then repeated her claim in post 1977. I responded to Marien in post 1980.
You would believe wrong then.
Because in post 1966 ( the one I was replying to in 1970)
Marien statedDo you accept that atheism/theism do not cause atrocities ?
Which is stating theism does not cause atrocities.
Which contradicts her earlier unproven and avoided assertion that theism caused rape because theists believed ( in her opinion) that God ordered rape ( an atrocity) in the Bible.I get enough stick from people about what I actually do, without anyone wrongly accusing me of doing stuff I didn't do.
I didn't accuse you of anything.
I am sure you are quite aware when I do accuse you and you can rely on me to tell you.
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And this handful (even including the contentious examples) is small enough to analyse the underpinning historical factors.
I think you may mean "is large enough". I would think yes.
How many countries in the UN about 150? that is about a fifteenth. Put it this way if it was the population of Ireland and you did a survey of 266,000 people would you consider that representative. In fact if you include China and Russia you are up near a third of the population of the world. So in terms of population that would be a sample of 1.2 million Irish people - more than vote in elections. I would not consider that a "handful".
Similarly communist countries can be examined to determine any patterns caused by Marxism. In terms of religion Cuba for example was not respectful of Christianity but it was more tolerant. And China became economically successful co incidentally when it relaxed it's pro atheist anti religious policies.
We can also look at ancient and nineteenth century atheistic regimes which predate State communism.
As I have stated how big does a "handful" or a Scotsman have to be before you eventually say it is a sample?So I ask you (again): Why do you infer that it is atheism, rather than, say, Totalitarianism, anti-clericalism, state-enforced suppression of religion, that is responsible for atrocities?
AS I stated so long as you leave Christianity alone I didn't want to go into all this. But if you insist atheistic regimes are different to theistic ones then I have to take you to task on that.
Either you can't ever criticise Christianity or you have to accept the same for atheism.
Let us take your examples in reverse
If a State is enforcing one religion over another ( almost never happened with Christianity) then I accept that is an atrocity you can chalk up to Christianity.
How many dead did it cause in 2000 years?
If it is Christians supporting the persecution of clerics or other faiths or of a different christian denomination I also accept it can be added to christian atrocities.
Again how many dead?
The Totalitarian I have also dealt with. If it was authoritarian Totalitarian or democracy i supplied figures.
How is it the atheistic ones always come out on top for murdering?Again, you are trying to introduce a tangent. You said atheism is the cause of atrocities. History shows both atheists and theists (not just Christians) causing great atrocities.
It shows Christians vanishingly small in the atrocity league with atheism consistently holding top place.If you cannot defend non-Christian theists, you cannot defend the premise that great atrocities are a facet of atheism, and hence you cannot defend the claim that atheism causes atrocities.
That isn't a valid logical argument. Islam could also cause atrocities or Paganism. They still don't get anywhere near atheistic regimes but this group is about Christianity and I have no interest in rehearsing the differences between Christianity and Islam or Christianity and animism or whatever.Which you never addressed. Do you believe the great leap forward would have killed on the order of 50 million if there were only, say 1 million people living in China?
I like the way you switched "population density" with just simply "population"
Nice try. The thing is above try to dismiss the same huge population of China as a "handful"
As stated before
'population density' and 'technology' arguments are easily
demolished by observing that BOTH were DIMINISHED under the atheist
regimes from what they were under previous, better, times.
Countries with similar population densities thrived without atheism. Countries with atheism as a central principle in society became economic backwaters.This is unrelated to what I said. How many times do I have to explain this? I am not saying population densities caused the atrocities. I am saying the reason the death toll is so high is because when state-sponsored famine atrocities are executed, the number will be high.
All that is saying is if an atheist causes an atrocity because of atheism he will kill the same number of people that a christian will kill doing the same atrocity because of Christianity. so how come the atheists do it far more frequently?
How come all the atheistic regimes committed atrocities ( whether they had huge or tiny populations) and not all the Christian regimes did ( in fact only a tiny minority of them)?
The idea that atheism only comes about in huge populations is also untrue just as Countries which are religious have huge populations of followers. Ther are more christians that anyone else. christiany make atheists look like a small number. So how come there are few christian famines and how come if you look at famines it is the Christians who are first on the scene and the atheists are nowhere to be found?I am refuting your naive claim that "atheism" was why the number was so high.
Well it certainly was not Christianity. You can refute away to my friends from china who were persecuted for their beliefs by a State who want their own official atheist version of the Church.And again, I ask you not to quote the morons from those groups. They make you look bad for both associating your view with theirs, and for trying to build a straw-man.
...'population density' and 'technology' arguments are easily
demolished by observing that BOTH were DIMINISHED under the atheist
regimes from what they were under previous, better, times.And I said I did not tender the above as examples of Christianity causing atrocities. I tendered the above as demonstrating the flabby logic of "atheism causes atrocities". The above categorically shows that atrocities are clearly an effect of something other than atheism.
I don't know about that but I'm happy to leave atheism alone as a root cause when you and other atheists are happy to accept Christianity isn't a threat to the world and a cause of atrocities.A deliberately dishonest tactic. Emperor divinity only collapsed after WWII.
Those were the stats I got.
I resent you calling me dishonest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Buddhism
introduced from India during the Han Dynasty, traditionally in the 1st century.
Buddhism is effectively atheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan
Buddhism first arrived in Japan in the 6th century
...
From the beginning, the largest form of Buddhism in Japan was the Mahayana school. According to the Agency of Cultural Affairs, 91 million Japanese identify themselves as Buddhist.Before 1868, there were three main forms of Shinto: Shrine Shinto, the most popular type; Folk (or Popular) Shinto, practiced by the peasants; and Imperial Household Shinto, practiced by the imperial family of Japan. In the 18th and 19th centuries, independent Shinto sects – Sect Shinto – formed, some of which were very radical, such as the monotheistic Tenrikyo. These became known as the Shinto Sects or the New Religions. Following the Meiji Restoration in 1868, Shinto and Buddhism were forcefully separated. The Emperor Meiji made Shinto the official religion, creating a form of Shinto known as State Shinto by merging Shrine, Folk, and Imperial Household Shinto. The radical Sect Shinto was separated from State Shinto. Under Meiji, Japan became a moderate theocracy, with shrines under government control. Shinto soon became a reason for Japanese nationalism
Yes Ill admit in WWII they enforced Emperor Worship. But similar arguments apply as to juche; or to Shinto/Bhuddism being atheistic; or to the "religion" only becoming established in 1868. But I'm happy to accept this non christian regime just like the Nazis was also non atheist. It certainly was not christian.Modern Japan is not religious. Japan during WWII was not only religious, but theistic, worshipping a God King.
Which only became imposed at that time. traditionally they were atheist/Buddhist. But yes like elevating Hitler for nationalist purposes they evevated Emporor Worship . But like North Korea I look on this as not an example of religion . But whatever argument for it not being atheist it certainly isn't christian
Nope . you gave examples of a few groups who did some good charitable works along christian principles. I don't recollect you showing me "There is no God" governments which did great works.Atheistic religions (atheism itself is not a religion) have not always. I have corrected you on this before.0 -
Fixed that for you.!And China became economically successful when it co incidentally relaxed it's pro atheist anti religious policies.
See this is going to be a problem, if we keep moving the goalposts no one can win (not that winning is the point anyway) I'l define my use of the terms so we know where I stand;But like North Korea I look on this as not an example of religion
Atheist = believe in no God/gods
Theist = believe in A God/ gods
Christian = believe that Christ was God
Religion = Worship of a God/gods leaders or ideals. (what you might call idols
)
Anti theist, religion, cleric = seeking to remove all trace of from society.
OK so can we agree that: the love of money is the root of all evil?
Corruption is power? People kill people? People are not rational? God won't stop it (So far anyway)? It might help to get to what causes it? The blame game is a waste of time? Power-hungry, ignorant, prejudiced bigotry isn't just for Christmas.. er Christians (or atheists)0 -
I think you may mean "is large enough". I would think yes.
I mean small enough to look at in more detail. If there had been, say, 1,000 atheist regimes over history, and they had all committed atrocities, then there might be something to the claim.How many countries in the UN about 150? that is about a fifteenth. Put it this way if it was the population of Ireland and you did a survey of 266,000 people would you consider that representative. In fact if you include China and Russia you are up near a third of the population of the world. So in terms of population that would be a sample of 1.2 million Irish people - more than vote in elections. I would not consider that a "handful".
Using population as metric is completely irrelevant. You would have took at a "regime population" throughout history. We see that the number of such regimes are small enough to analyse in more detail.Similarly communist countries can be examined to determine any patterns caused by Marxism. In terms of religion Cuba for example was not respectful of Christianity but it was more tolerant. And China became economically successful co incidentally when it relaxed it's pro atheist anti religious policies.
We can also look at ancient and nineteenth century atheistic regimes which predate State communism.
As I have stated how big does a "handful" or a Scotsman have to be before you eventually say it is a sample?
We can indeed look at these regimes. That is what I am asking you to do. What is the argument, based on these regimes, that atheism will lead to atrocities, as opposed to, say Totalitarianism, anti-clericalism coupled with anti-pluralism? Modern Japan has a largely atheist population. In fact, it is an example of a secular pluralist society, where Christianity et al are in the minority, but free to practise their religion without persecution. Do you believe they are on the road to another massacre?AS I stated so long as you leave Christianity alone I didn't want to go into all this. But if you insist atheistic regimes are different to theistic ones then I have to take you to task on that.
Either you can't ever criticise Christianity or you have to accept the same for atheism.
I am not insisting they are different. I have said before that I want neither. I want secular pluralism. Sure, I would be pleased if atheists were in the majority, but only if this came through discourse and not oppression. I am specifically addressing the claim that atheism causes atrocities: That if a society becomes atheist, through whatever means, they will start killing people.Let us take your examples in reverse
If a State is enforcing one religion over another ( almost never happened with Christianity) then I accept that is an atrocity you can chalk up to Christianity.
How many dead did it cause in 2000 years?
If it is Christians supporting the persecution of clerics or other faiths or of a different christian denomination I also accept it can be added to christian atrocities.
Again how many dead?
The Totalitarian I have also dealt with. If it was authoritarian Totalitarian or democracy i supplied figures.
How is it the atheistic ones always come out on top for murdering?
It shows Christians vanishingly small in the atrocity league with atheism consistently holding top place.
So how come the atheists do it far more frequently?
How come all the atheistic regimes committed atrocities ( whether they had huge or tiny populations) and not all the Christian regimes did ( in fact only a tiny minority of them)?
Does this mean you are now changing your position from "Atheism causes atrocities." To "state-enforced Christianity is comparatively benign"?That isn't a valid logical argument. Islam could also cause atrocities or Paganism. They still don't get anywhere near atheistic regimes but this group is about Christianity and I have no interest in rehearsing the differences between Christianity and Islam or Christianity and animism or whatever.
You are the one who brought them into it when you said history shows that atheism causes atrocities. It is perfectly appropriate that theist atrocities are up there as well, implying other causes.I like the way you switched "population density" with just simply "population"
Nice try. The thing is above try to dismiss the same huge population of China as a "handful"
As stated before
'population density' and 'technology' arguments are easily
demolished by observing that BOTH were DIMINISHED under the atheist
regimes from what they were under previous, better, times.
Countries with similar population densities thrived without atheism. Countries with atheism as a central principle in society became economic backwaters.
I have made it perfectly clear what I mean by population density (not just population). From my post #1830 (A post I assumed you missed, as you did not respond to it) :
"And I refer you to my earlier remark about not imposing other discussions onto this one. I have never made the "Leopold of Belgium is evidence of Christianity causing regimes in the Congo" argument (as I have pointed out numerous times), and I am well aware that high population does not automatically result in famine. Mao's famine was entirely state-sponsored. It was a repulsive socio-economic experiment in rapid industrialisation that cost millions of lives. But the number of deaths is directly linked to the high population. Is it an excuse? Of course not, but you are acting like atheism was the contingency, when it was clearly a number of factors, none of which being atheism."All that is saying is if an atheist causes an atrocity because of atheism he will kill the same number of people that a christian will kill doing the same atrocity because of Christianity.
Bingo. Atheism is not the reason the death toll was so high.The idea that atheism only comes about in huge populations is also untrue just as Countries which are religious have huge populations of followers. Ther are more christians that anyone else. christiany make atheists look like a small number. So how come there are few christian famines and how come if you look at famines it is the Christians who are first on the scene and the atheists are nowhere to be found?
I can't parse this paragraph. What are you asking?Well it certainly was not Christianity. You can refute away to my friends from china who were persecuted for their beliefs by a State who want their own official atheist version of the Church.
And I am not saying it was Christianity.I don't know about that but I'm happy to leave atheism alone as a root cause when you and other atheists are happy to accept Christianity isn't a threat to the world and a cause of atrocities.
Do you mean:
"I no longer believe atheism is a root cause."
or
"I still believe atheism is a root cause, but I will not supply an argument for why I think this."Those were the stats I got.
I resent you calling me dishonest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China#Buddhism
introduced from India during the Han Dynasty, traditionally in the 1st century.
Buddhism is effectively atheist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Japan
Buddhism first arrived in Japan in the 6th century
...
From the beginning, the largest form of Buddhism in Japan was the Mahayana school. According to the Agency of Cultural Affairs, 91 million Japanese identify themselves as Buddhist.
Yes Ill admit in WWII they enforced Emperor Worship. But similar arguments apply as to juche; or to Shinto/Bhuddism being atheistic; or to the "religion" only becoming established in 1868. But I'm happy to accept this non christian regime just like the Nazis was also non atheist. It certainly was not christian.
WWII Japan was not an atheist regimes. While North Korea and Stalinist Russia can be called atheist (North Korea came close to theism when it was suggested Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were the same, transcendant being), the Emperor of Japan was a God. Again, I do not tender examples to argue that they committed atrocities because they were theists. I do it to show that atrocities stem from something other than atheism. Do you see, for example, similarities between atheist regimes like Stalin's russia, and "non atheist" regimes like Nazi Germany, or WWII Japan, or a variety of examples in Africa?Which only became imposed at that time. traditionally they were atheist/Buddhist. But yes like elevating Hitler for nationalist purposes they evevated Emporor Worship . But like North Korea I look on this as not an example of religion . But whatever argument for it not being atheist it certainly isn't christian
North Korea is definitely atheist (Though WWII Japan wasn't).Nope . you gave examples of a few groups who did some good charitable works along christian principles. I don't recollect you showing me "There is no God" governments which did great works.
You specifically said atheist religions all cause atrocities. Jainism is an example of a peaceful atheist religion, as are atheist branches of Unitarianism0 -
Fixed that for you.!
I don't understand. Are you claiming that all these atheistic regimes persecuting religion just happened to coincide with their economic collapse?See this is going to be a problem, if we keep moving the goalposts no one can win (not that winning is the point anyway) I'l define my use of the terms so we know where I stand;
Atheist = believe in no God/gods
Theist = believe in A God/ gods
Christian = believe that Christ was God
Religion = Worship of a God/gods leaders or ideals. (what you might call idols )
I'm with you all the way up to the definition of religion.
Morbert is claiming atheism can be a religion.
But the juche thing is clearly an invented religion = not a religion
Id think ancestor worship goes in the same pile although Im willing to say it isn't necessarily atheism. However the traditional religion in Japan/china Bhuddism is atheistic.
One thing is certain- it ISN'T Christianity so you can't chalk up any deaths to christianity - which is the whole goalpost you have in the first place!Anti theist, religion, cleric = seeking to remove all trace of from society.
OK so can we agree that: the love of money is the root of all evil?
Corruption is power? People kill people? People are not rational?
This isn't a discussion about what evil is or whether worship of the material is a worse evil or corruption or whether or not people are rational.
Reason is reason and logic is logic whether or not you happen to be reasonable or not.
As for people killing others. How come atheistic ( no golaposts involved atheistoc= promoting "there is no God or gods " your defiition) regimes have such a record
in killijng people?God won't stop it (So far anyway)?
That would be your belief. It would not be the Christian belief.It might help to get to what causes it?
Im not making the claim that no atrocities happened because of religion or atheism. Im just asking you - how come all the atheistic regimes killed hundreds of millions and the christian ones didn't?The blame game is a waste of time? Power-hungry, ignorant, prejudiced bigotry isn't just for Christmas.. er Christians (or atheists)
How come all the power-hungry, ignorant, prejudiced bigoted atheists killed hundreds of millions and contributed nothing and the power-hungry, ignorant, prejudiced bigoted Christians didn't and built societies instead?0 -
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