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FG lies on property taxation

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Comments

  • #32
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,508 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Nationally Fine Gael are not going to introduce a property tax. If a Labour led council introduces one in their particular council for example then it's hardly Fine Gael's fault.


  • #33
    yosemite_sam
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭yosemite_sam


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    I am thoroughly sick and tired that apparently FG have got away with claiming that they will not impose a Property tax. This is simply not true. They will not directly impose it but ill empower Local County Councils with the means to generate revenue by introducing Property taxes at their discretion and similarly increase rates including water rates.
    I point you to an extract from the FG manifesto which clearly gives this power to the Councils (Which predominately are controlled by FG) and please bear in mind that these councillors have a 4 year period of grace before they need to answer to the electorate and as such to the homeowners they will be punishing severely.



    Fine Gael will restore power to Local Government. Recognising the disconnect between local authorities,
    councillors and their respective communities Fine Gael will empower local authorities to solve problems at a local level.

    16.1 Local Government Reform


    Restoring Power to Local Level:
    We will confront the traditional, centralised top down approach to delivery and responsibility of local services by transferring powers and services from unelected Quangos to
    Local Authorities in areas such as job and housing supports. By doing so we intend to make local authorities more relevant to the communities they serve and to give people a say in how local services are provided.


    Now tell me where the term Stealth taxation comes from? I believe FG have many hidden Stealth taxes in their manifesto which makes them appear like a low tax party
    A property tax is a fair way to raise revenue, I pay business rate 12000 euro a year and think it only right that the burden should be shared


  • #34
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    Well obviously the system worked to some extent with you. I am bothered for exactly that reason. I cannot speak the language but I would like my children to be able to and my grandchildren.
    I feel the same. That is why I would rather my children actually made a positive choice to learn to speak a living language, rather than be forced to learn a load of poetry and other guff in a dead language that has as much relevance in modern Ireland as Latin (I had to learn both at school).
    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    Does it bother you that a lot of decisions are being made by EUROPE and not Ireland?
    Yes it does. But the language issue is something we can try to address ourselves, and the current compulsory sytem clearly has not worked.


  • #35
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    So Labour will have to more than double FG's proposed taxes? Because they are using the same growth assumptions as FG. Man, the news just gets worse and worse for the Labour Party.
    That is correct Labours direct taxation will be approx. double FG but spending cuts ie. social welfare, rent allowance, public sector pay will be half. But NO STEALTH TAXES. I believe, be it FF FG Labour SF or Greens are all chasing votes and as usual promising the best scenario possible. We are in for dark times ahead and they will be much darker than what is being estimated by all the politicians. I wouldnt vote independant as I believe it is a wasted vote and my only options are FG or Labour as they will probably make up the next government. So as was stated in other post the electorate must choose the best of a bad lot. I do not wish to come across as aggressive or anti FG or any other party, I am just so pissed off at our political system telling lies to us and leaving us in a mess.


  • #36
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I feel the same. That is why I would rather my children actually made a positive choice to learn to speak a living language, rather than be forced to learn a load of poetry and other guff in a dead language that has as much relevance in modern Ireland as Latin (I had to learn both at school).

    Yes it does. But the language issue is something we can try to address ourselves, and the current compulsory sytem clearly has not worked.

    Well I can agree that we both have the same wishes just differing ideas how it can be achieved. Maybe you are right maybe I am but either way I respect your opinion as it is your honest belief.


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  • #37
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    dsmythy wrote: »
    Nationally Fine Gael are not going to introduce a property tax. If a Labour led council introduces one in their particular council for example then it's hardly Fine Gael's fault.

    I just want to say that the majority of councils are controlled by FG councillors. Please correct me if I am wrong.


  • #38
    dsmythy
    Registered Users Posts: 10,508 ✭✭✭✭dsmythy


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    I just want to say that the majority of councils are controlled by FG councillors. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    I don't actually know though I think they are likely to since they are the biggest local representative party. I'd say many would need support from other parties in each council area to get a local property tax through. I'm all for more powers to local government. Hopefully it will get people looking at councillors rather than national TD's for local problems and accountability.


  • #39
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    dsmythy wrote: »
    I don't actually know though I think they are likely to since they are the biggest local representative party. I'd say many would need support from other parties in each council area to get a local property tax through. I'm all for more powers to local government. Hopefully it will get people looking at councillors rather than national TD's for local problems and accountability.

    Maybe so, but then there should be no need to disguise the fact that FG are passing the buck onto the councillors for property tax, they should come out and say that they will be introducing property tax but it will be decided at local authority level. I just think they should come clean on it instead of political games.


  • #40
    jmayo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,078 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    Firstly I do not support SF and I used to vote for Billy Timmins father Goddfrey, have since become apolitical. I vote for the person not the party but am sick of lies.

    But the party is the ultimate deciding factor.

    For example you vote for local ffer, he "appears" honest enough and is hardworking.

    But then he goes into the Dáil and supports an unethical toe rag for taoiseach, he thinks it is ok that his party's leader and the lead of the country can't explain wads of cash in wall safes.
    He backs disasterous legislation or lack of and he sees no problem with his party allowing the economy be subverted for the benefit of a few party supporters.

    Subsequently he backs a complete moron for taoiseach.

    Then he votes support in a liar and votes support to financial legislation that will cost every single one of us, man, woman and child anything upto 20,000.

    Now please tell me why would you vote for this guy again ?
    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    Why would I be ashamed to vote for a person who I believe has the characteristics to be fair and honest regardless of political party, I dont give a damn about which party they belong to. There is a lack of sincerely honest politicians and IF I can find one that I believe in they will get my vote.

    One cannot be fair and honest and then go vote support for unethical politicans as party leader or vote support for a slanderer and liar.

    Just like one can't claim a politican is fair and honest if they refuse to condemn the brutal killing of a member of our police force and then collect the killers from jail.
    One can't either say that the colleagues of the politican are fiar and honest if they condone such behaviour from their colleague.
    jimaneejeebus wrote: »
    Originally Posted by ednwireland viewpost.gif
    aaah another low post count user, where you all coming from ?

    It's ok-you probably didn't realise you were speaking to the king of the internet?

    You are fairly new around here :rolleyes: so let me tell you this.
    That poster is not the king of the internet, but they do however store it in a special box and if you are nice they will let you see it. ;)

    Now be nice and you never know they may let you and your other newly arrived friends see it. ;)


  • #41
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    jmayo wrote: »
    But the party is the ultimate deciding factor.

    For example you vote for local ffer, he "appears" honest enough and is hardworking.

    But then he goes into the Dáil and supports an unethical toe rag for taoiseach, he thinks it is ok that his party's leader and the lead of the country can't explain wads of cash in wall safes.
    He backs disasterous legislation or lack of and he sees no problem with his party allowing the economy be subverted for the benefit of a few party supporters.

    Subsequently he backs a complete moron for taoiseach.

    Then he votes support in a liar and votes support to financial legislation that will cost every single one of us, man, woman and child anything upto 20,000.

    Now please tell me why would you vote for this guy again ?



    One cannot be fair and honest and then go vote support for unethical politicans as party leader or vote support for a slanderer and liar.

    Just like one can't claim a politican is fair and honest if they refuse to condemn the brutal killing of a member of our police force and then collect the killers from jail.
    One can't either say that the colleagues of the politican are fiar and honest if they condone such behaviour from their colleague.



    You are fairly new around here :rolleyes: so let me tell you this.
    That poster is not the king of the internet, but they do however store it in a special box and if you are nice they will let you see it. ;)

    Now be nice and you never know they may let you and your other newly arrived friends see it. ;)

    Firstly I intend to vote as if I dont it is an insult to democracy
    Secondly I would not vote for SF as they have not proved to me that they are seperate from the IRA
    Thirdly I have to vote for a mainstream party otherwise its a wasted vote.
    Taking all the above into consideration I have to vote for the person as none of the political parties have any thorough answers and saying that its a case of voting for the best of a bad lot.


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  • #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    local taxes need to be fairly raised-its proressive imho to do that as its locally accountable.

    As for irish...for fairness if this thread is about that change the title,its off topic.
    Fg you'd swear from what the op is saying want to ban the language...they actually want it to live..as with current policy its dying.

    Nice to see balance on the forum now,with the addition of a few fg bashing threads to the sf , labour and ff ones .. Is there an election on? :rolleyes:


  • #43
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Deleted User wrote: »
    local taxes need to be fairly raised-its proressive imho to do that as its locally accountable.

    As for irish...for fairness if this thread is about that change the title,its off topic.
    Fg you'd swear fom what the op is saying want to ban the language...they actually want it to live..as with current policy its dying.

    Nice to see balance on the forum now,with the addition of a few fg bashing threads to the sf , labour and ff ones .. Is there an election on? :rolleyes:

    Hi again BB, I dont want to bash FG I just want them to be honest about their policies on Property Tax.


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    As I said to you on the other thread,it's all there in black and white in their manifesto.
    They are not rising any new income taxes and they want councils to be responsible if needed to raise their own finance locally.

    That couldn't be clearer.
    It's totally honest and in fact if you disagree strongly enough with that policy to over rule policies you may like,then you are informed so vote accordingly.

    Using the terms dishonesty or lies is ridiculous frankly because it's all there open and transparent what they stand for..


  • #45
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Deleted User wrote: »
    As I said to you on the other thread,it's all there in black and white in their manifesto.
    They are not rising any new income taxes and they want councils to be responsible if needed to raise their own finance locally.

    That couldn't be clearer.
    It's totally honest and in fact if you disagree strongly enough with that policy to over rule policies you may like,then you are informed so vote accordingly.

    Using the terms dishonesty or lies is ridiculous frankly because it's all there open and transparent what they stand for..

    OK then tell me that it is not logical to assume that Councils will have to introduce property tax and that this policy FG proposes will give them the means to do that?
    They cant claim they are a party that will not introduce porperty tax when in fact they are providing the means to introduce it but just using local councils which they control the vast majority of to impose it in their stead.
    Am sorry but I dont agree that they can claim one thing and do another albeit by indirect means. They will be responsible for giving the power to impose the tax therefore it is an indirect form of taxation or stealth taxation.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    My point is,they are giving the local council's the power to do so and this is transparent.Theres no dishonesty about it.
    If an FG controlled council introduce one,you can point out to them if it's against FG policy and call them hypocrites then.
    If you are looking for a party that won't facilitate some kind of property tax or other to fund local government,you'll be looking a long time.


  • #47
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Deleted User wrote: »
    My point is,they are giving the local council's the power to do so and this is transparent.Theres no dishonesty about it.
    If an FG controlled council introduce one,you can point out to them if it's against FG policy and call them hypocrites then.
    If you are looking for a party that won't facilitate some kind of property tax or other to fund local government,you'll be looking a long time.

    Be a bit late by then calling them hypocrites.


  • #48
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    Be a bit late by then calling them hypocrites.

    Looks like FG might get an overall majority, time to see if this is stealth taxation or just rumours? I know how I feel and what history tells us about the FG party.


  • #49
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Deleted User wrote: »
    .

    Using the terms dishonesty or lies is ridiculous frankly because it's all there open and transparent what they stand for..

    I missed this earlier, saying politics is open and transparent and that their manifesto is clear and easily understandable is not very correct? I wish they would put the figures or caps on what the property tax and increased rates will be. That might give us an idea on what their Tax policy will be in real terms.


  • #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    I missed this earlier, saying politics is open and transparent and that their manifesto is clear and easily understandable is not very correct? I wish they would put the figures or caps on what the property tax and increased rates will be. That might give us an idea on what their Tax policy will be in real terms.
    You miss my point.
    The policy for local revenue raising is there.
    If you disagree and believe it should all come from central funds [income tax :eek:] then you can choose to vote for someone else.
    Bumping this thread all the time ain't changing that fact.


  • #51
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    Looks like FG might get an overall majority, time to see if this is stealth taxation or just rumours? I know how I feel and what history tells us about the FG party.
    Here's what I feel and know.

    Fianna Failure ruined us. No chance of a vote.

    They left us a huge hole in the public finances. We all agree on this.

    Labour propose to raise taxes to fill two thirds of this gap, and make cuts to close one third.

    Fine Gael propose to raise taxes to fill one third of this gap, and make cuts to close two thirds.

    So Labour - according to their own plans - have admitted that they will be increasing our taxes by twice what FG plan to do, in order that they don't have to tackle the excessive cost of our public sector.

    So whatever way you spin 'FG stealth taxes' or 'FG property taxes' or 'FG university fees', the fact is that Labour plan to take TWICE as much extra money from us. And it's not me saying that, it's them.


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  • #52
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Here's what I feel and know.

    Fianna Failure ruined us. No chance of a vote.

    They left us a huge hole in the public finances. We all agree on this.

    Labour propose to raise taxes to fill two thirds of this gap, and make cuts to close one third.

    Fine Gael propose to raise taxes to fill one third of this gap, and make cuts to close two thirds.

    So Labour - according to their own plans - have admitted that they will be increasing our taxes by twice what FG plan to do, in order that they don't have to tackle the excessive cost of our public sector.

    So whatever way you spin 'FG stealth taxes' or 'FG property taxes' or 'FG university fees', the fact is that Labour plan to take TWICE as much extra money from us. And it's not me saying that, it's them.

    The problem I have with this is that FG claim their taxes will represent 1/3 of the cuts but stealth taxes are still taxes no matter what way you spin it. FG cut 30000 Public sector jobs, social welfare, rent allowance etc etc (That is 2/3 of the gap filled)
    They propose direct taxation of 1/3 of the gap.
    But why do they need stealth taxes then?
    If the gap is filled then stealth taxes will be extra on top of what they needed.
    If as you say they have filled the gap with 1/3 in direct taxes and 2/3 in cuts then they do not require a property tax do they?
    Or is this more smokescreening?


  • #53
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Auctionmcd wrote: »
    They propose direct taxation of 1/3 of the gap.
    But why do they need stealth taxes then?
    If the gap is filled then stealth taxes will be extra on top of what they needed.
    It seems to me that the issue here is that you are treating a tabloid invention ('stealth taxes') as something real. There are no stealth taxes, there are only taxes. Do you ever hear of 'stealth spending'?


  • #54
    Auctionmcd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Auctionmcd


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    It seems to me that the issue here is that you are treating a tabloid invention ('stealth taxes') as something real. There are no stealth taxes, there are only taxes. Do you ever hear of 'stealth spending'?

    Ok so a tax that is not defined or outlined in any way is not considered a stealth tax? It is only considered a tax when it is implemented and that is what I take issue with, where do FG include property tax in their manifesto?


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