Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Planning issues - post them here MOD WARNING post #1

12357112

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭cue


    It is not a strategic road nor is it a conservation area. I would not bother applying for permission unless I have a perfectly good case. However, I was warned at the start of this process that a good case meant, at best, a gamble. I did not believe this. I believe that there are processes and systems in place to help and serve people. Planners were there to look at the big picture, curtail aggressive development and protect the environment, things that I may not take into consideration when pursuing my own goals. Fair enough. I have no problem walking away from this if it is not good for everyone.I trust people and it is an attitude that has worked well for me. Rarely do I get let down and if I do a lot of the time it is to do with my expectations. However, I am gobsmacked by the fact that I receive no results for services rendered apart from an embarressed shrug and a weak explanation about "local needs" that does not make sense. I was told time and time again, by people in similar situations and people who deal with the authorities that this "process" was completely random and inconsistent. I believe that if you followed instructions, took guidance from authorities, and work with instead of against people, results are either guaranteed or change is needed somewhere. I know that I will eventually get permission to build a home to rear my children because I have not been given a reason why I cannot which makes sense. I know plenty of people who were in the same situation as me, and they eventually received permission. The reason I am writing is just to voice my feelings, and this forum may not be the place for that, as planning is so impersonal. I feel frustrated, powerless and strangely - rejected by my own community. But thank you all for your own experiences so far and hope to see you in the "Live build" thread sometime.:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    cue wrote: »
    It is not a strategic road nor is it a conservation area. I would not bother applying for permission unless I have a perfectly good case. However, I was warned at the start of this process that a good case meant, at best, a gamble. I did not believe this. I believe that there are processes and systems in place to help and serve people. Planners were there to look at the big picture, curtail aggressive development and protect the environment, things that I may not take into consideration when pursuing my own goals. Fair enough. I have no problem walking away from this if it is not good for everyone.I trust people and it is an attitude that has worked well for me. Rarely do I get let down and if I do a lot of the time it is to do with my expectations. However, I am gobsmacked by the fact that I receive no results for services rendered apart from an embarressed shrug and a weak explanation about "local needs" that does not make sense. I was told time and time again, by people in similar situations and people who deal with the authorities that this "process" was completely random and inconsistent. I believe that if you followed instructions, took guidance from authorities, and work with instead of against people, results are either guaranteed or change is needed somewhere. I know that I will eventually get permission to build a home to rear my children because I have not been given a reason why I cannot which makes sense. I know plenty of people who were in the same situation as me, and they eventually received permission. The reason I am writing is just to voice my feelings, and this forum may not be the place for that, as planning is so impersonal. I feel frustrated, powerless and strangely - rejected by my own community. But thank you all for your own experiences so far and hope to see you in the "Live build" thread sometime.:D

    Thats a damn good post and maybe you could to worse things than print it and take it to a meeting with the local planner.

    Every county has its own development plan and that plan will curtail developments in certain areas. Like it or lump it you are stuck with it but dont forget one very important thing - the plan was adopted by the guy/girl you or your extended family voted for. The whole process involves (simple format) the planners proposing the way they want to see the county develop over the next 5 years. That proposal goes to a full meeting of the council where the elected members (councilors) put their hand up in the air and vote for its adoption or non adoption or whatever.

    What I am saying to you here is that you should discuss this with your local councilor and remind him/her that you did not vote them into office so as they could adopt a development plan that discriminated against you and your family.

    Good luck with it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 jendavnlillie


    cue wrote: »
    Yes! Yes! Born 1 mile from farm in 1969. Lived on farm til 1987 and went to UK. Returned 1993 and lived in town where I was born, schooled, played football etc etc etc until now. All family live on farm. Uncles next door. Grandparents door after that.4 generations now on the land. Surrounded by countless cousins. Supporting documentation to prove all but they still refuse and can get no clear answer off architects, councillors etc apart from " you live in the town now". House plans thay are happy with. Just local needs!!!

    Hi, we were told that we do not mention that had at any point owned a house, wheither in the area we are applying in or even in a different county. They can say that basically you have/had a house and therefore have no need to build a one-off. We also had to show documentation giving proof that we lived within 3 miles of our site for the past 5 years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15 jendavnlillie


    cue wrote: »
    However, I am gobsmacked by the fact that I receive no results for services rendered apart from an embarressed shrug and a weak explanation about "local needs" that does not make sense. I was told time and time again, by people in similar situations and people who deal with the authorities that this "process" was completely random and inconsistent. I believe that if you followed instructions, took guidance from authorities, and work with instead of against people, results are either guaranteed or change is needed somewhere.

    Your point about the inconsistancies in relation to the local needs seems to be a big issue, no matter what county. I spent months talking to planners and councilors trying to find out exactly what " local needs " meant and not one person could give me a straight forward answer as to what we had to do. Some people said you had to live within 2 mile, 3 km 5 miles of the proposed dwelling....that you had to show you were/would be giving something back to the community....documentation showing proof of residency in the area for a period of no less than 5 years....some people went on about the traffic congestion......
    A simple set of guidelines can't be that hard to produce. From what I've heard it depends entirley on who you get and what humor they're in on that particular day.
    A couple I know told me recently whenthey were looking to change they're chicken farm from agricultural to commercial, they spent nearly 2 years trying to get the permission, going in for meetings with one planner in particular. On one occasion they were both in his office and he had a heated conversation over the phone with someone, obviously in relation to planning, when the planner got off the phone, he asked the guy to hold up a pile of applications on his desk, took the application of the person who had just been on the phone, put it to the bottom of the pile and said " that'll sort him out!"
    They were told by a councilor that she should go in by herself and wear something short, ( I nearly fell off my chair when they told me this, so I know it sounds crazy but..) so she did. And low and behold they got their permission not too long afterwards.

    Pathetic. In this day and age, in our so called democratic society, you'd think that it wouldn't matter how large your arse pocket is but unfortunatley we are still living in the world of.. " its not what you know but who you know"


  • Administrators, Sports Moderators Posts: 21,676 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭smashey


    Pathetic. In this day and age, in our so called democratic society, you'd think that it wouldn't matter how large your arse pocket is but unfortunatley we are still living in the world of.. " its not what you know but who you know"

    You're new to this forum so I'll be gentle here.

    We don't particularly like comments like that here. If you have a problem with the planners, take it up with the relevant Co. Manager. While allowing some rants, this forum will not be a space for generalisations like this.

    Remember this when posting next and we'll all get along just fine.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    They were told by a councilor that she should go in by herself and wear something short, ( I nearly fell off my chair when they told me this, so I know it sounds crazy but..) so she did. And low and behold they got their permission not too long afterwards.
    Try going in naked and you will probably come out with both the permission and a brown envelope* :D

    I also agree with smasheys sentiments on your post. I know planning can be a frustrating process but this forum and particularly this thread is all about seeking (and giving) advice on planning issues.





    *to cover the naughty bits


  • Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭cue


    Still waiting for a copy of the planners report but the architect read it down the phone to me and even he is angry. Refusal was on two main points. Firstly, I submitted bank details which contain my current address, 1 mile away from the farm. They are not happy about this - architect says it is something to do with a public file. Secondly, they say that I have not given enough documentation to prove my links to the rural area in question for at least five years. We have no idea how they can say this as I have submitted quite a sizeable file containing every scrap of paper containing my name and address up to age 18 and lots more afterwards. The architect is going to have a chat with the planner in question and I am going to visit the local councillor again. Thanks Muffler for the explanation of the relationship between planners and councillors. That is useful info. That whole area was a bit of a mystery to me and that certainly does not help when trying to get things done.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭ollie30


    hi all, my brother is soon to start on his build but didnt like the provision for the downstairs bedroom.now he doesnt want to change the rest of the house in any great way so he rang the local planners and asked could he build a 200sq ft extension to the rear of the house comprising just 1 storey(2 storey house) and asked can this be agreed to on a house thats not yet built and without further planning.they replied that he could as long as it's to the rear and not over 40sq mtrs and that even if the house wasnt started yet it wouldnt matter as he could just build it the day after the house would be completed to get round the loop hole so its basicily the same thing.however his engineer thats signing off the build states that technically the planner is wrong and that a proposed new build would need further planning and is refusing to sign off if the extension goes ahead,can someone explain who,s right and what can be done to get around this problem


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    ollie30 wrote: »
    hi all, my brother is soon to start on his build but didnt like the provision for the downstairs bedroom.now he doesnt want to change the rest of the house in any great way so he rang the local planners and asked could he build a 200sq ft extension to the rear of the house comprising just 1 storey(2 storey house) and asked can this be agreed to on a house thats not yet built and without further planning.they replied that he could as long as it's to the rear and not over 40sq mtrs and that even if the house wasnt started yet it wouldnt matter as he could just build it the day after the house would be completed to get round the loop hole so its basicily the same thing.however his engineer thats signing off the build states that technically the planner is wrong and that a proposed new build would need further planning and is refusing to sign off if the extension goes ahead,can someone explain who,s right and what can be done to get around this problem
    The engineer is 100% correct and i suspect that the person in the planning dept. was a member of the admin staff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 64 ✭✭alinoee


    Ollie, the simplest way is to submit revised drawings to LA. He could also try to phase construction (depends on house design) or change engeneer.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭sandyg


    When we applied for local neeeds we had to get the following:
    3 letters: one from local garda, priest and school to state that we lived within the area and attended the local school. We had to live within 4 kms of a "crows fly's" to the site. They enquired if we owned a house to which we didnt as we had applied for temporary planning at the time for a mobile home on the site and had sold ours before attending the first planning meeting. Got the planning first time round.


  • Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭cue


    sandyg wrote: »
    one from local garda,
    I wonder do the Gardai have different county guidelines aswell? When I approached them for a letter for my application they told me that I had been informed wrong and that they did not get involved in the planning process.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭ollie30


    thank you,much appreciated


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 254 ✭✭sandyg


    A letter from your local T.D./Councillor should suffice if you are one letter short!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 Twain


    Hi

    I own a plot of land which I intend to build on in a few years time. At the moment I don't want the expense of applying for full planning permission, getting plans drawn up, especially when there is a possibility that permission won't be granted.
    The county council are getting stricter in recent times about giving permission.
    My question is: Could I apply for outline permission only and at a later date get plans drawn up before applying for full permission.
    I've searched for more information on outline permission but I'm not sure what it involves. Do you need an architect?

    Many thanks for any replies


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Twain wrote: »
    Hi

    I own a plot of land which I intend to build on in a few years time. At the moment I don't want the expense of applying for full planning permission, getting plans drawn up, especially when there is a possibility that permission won't be granted.
    The county council are getting stricter in recent times about giving permission.
    My question is: Could I apply for outline permission only and at a later date get plans drawn up before applying for full permission.
    I've searched for more information on outline permission but I'm not sure what it involves. Do you need an architect?

    Many thanks for any replies
    Yeah you can apply for outline PP. If successful you need to then make another application for "permission consequent" within 3 years of the outline PP being granted. If that application is OK then you will have another 5 years to start and complete your project.

    You dont necessarily need an architect for the outline application - a draughtsman/technician/engineer can prepare (and submit) the application. But you do need someone who is familiar with the planning process.

    At the stage of applying for outline PP you will need to demonstrate that you satisfy the requirements of the "local needs" issue if you are proposing to build in a rural area and also have a site assessment carried out (re sewage treatment & disposal). Site location and site layout maps need to be submitted.

    The only real difference between the outline and full PP is that with outline you dont submit house plans but you will have to submit all other documentation.


    Edit: This doc. from Donegal Co. Council will give you an insight - just ignore town names etc as the regs are the same throughout the country


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 Twain


    Thanks Muffler, that's very helpful


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    ollie30 wrote: »
    hi all, my brother is soon to start on his build but didnt like the provision for the downstairs bedroom.now he doesnt want to change the rest of the house in any great way so he rang the local planners and asked could he build a 200sq ft extension to the rear of the house comprising just 1 storey(2 storey house) and asked can this be agreed to on a house thats not yet built and without further planning.they replied that he could as long as it's to the rear and not over 40sq mtrs and that even if the house wasnt started yet it wouldnt matter as he could just build it the day after the house would be completed to get round the loop hole so its basicily the same thing.however his engineer thats signing off the build states that technically the planner is wrong and that a proposed new build would need further planning and is refusing to sign off if the extension goes ahead,can someone explain who,s right and what can be done to get around this problem

    Hi
    Im an engineer working signing off one off houses, mortgage drawdowns etc and I dont see a problem to be honest provided the extension is within all the limits for exempted development. Tell your engineer to sign it or you will get someone else. Nobody could have a problem with it as long as no other alterations being proposed. What I would do in that case is issue completion cert for the main build then issue a second cert for the extension stating that in my opinion, it is exempt development. This is then perfectly acceptable and should you go to sell in future, there is paperwork for the extension and solicitor will be happy with cert stating planning exempt.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Twain wrote: »
    Hi

    I own a plot of land which I intend to build on in a few years time. At the moment I don't want the expense of applying for full planning permission, getting plans drawn up, especially when there is a possibility that permission won't be granted.
    The county council are getting stricter in recent times about giving permission.
    My question is: Could I apply for outline permission only and at a later date get plans drawn up before applying for full permission.
    I've searched for more information on outline permission but I'm not sure what it involves. Do you need an architect?

    Many thanks for any replies


    The only difference is that no house design required. To be honest, it will cost you nearly double by going outline route then full planning. If you have idea of house design, I would go full permission


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    mickdw wrote: »
    Hi
    I dont see a problem to be honest provided the extension is within all the limits for exempted development.
    Do you genuinely consider this to be exempted development?
    mickdw wrote: »
    Tell your engineer to sign it or you will get someone else.
    And would you find this an acceptable way for a client to approach you with a similar problem?

    mickdw wrote: »
    Nobody could have a problem with it as long as no other alterations being proposed.
    And why would anyone have a problem if it is exempt.

    mickdw wrote: »
    What I would do in that case is issue completion cert for the main build then issue a second cert for the extension stating that in my opinion, it is exempt development.
    Is this not a bit odd - giving 2 certs for a new house - one for the house itself and one for an extension to the house. Doesn't add up.


    mickdw, Im not having a go here or nit picking as such but I find your comments a wee bit at odds with planning legislation. I dont think I have seen you posting here before so welcome to the forum. Given your line of work you should be able to offer some good advice here.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 willywilliams


    I've lived outside of Ireland (US) for the last 15 years. I've put in my planning application and have been very honest and up front about my situation. My parents contacted our local councillor and he thinks the planner will want me to show employment in the area to prove I am returning home. As I dont plan to return until later in year obviously I dont have a job lined up. Does anyone have any thoughts on this issue or has anyone run into it before? Thanks!


  • Administrators, Sports Moderators Posts: 21,676 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭smashey


    Don't they allow for returning emigrants?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 willywilliams


    The development plan for the county, which I assume is similar to most counties states: "Certain special needs are also recognized ... persons local to an area are considered to include ... Returning emigrants who have lived for substantial parts of their lives in rural areas, then moved abroad and who now wish to return to reside near other family members, to work locally, to care for elderly members of their family or to retire." So I meet the definition, and the councillor says it depends on the planner, but most likely I will need to prove I am returning home. I am not sure how I can do that without physically showing up at his/her office with my clothes, kids, dogs and knick knacks. What physical state is a "returning emigrant". If I move home I am an returned emigrant?


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    smashey wrote: »
    Don't they allow for returning emigrants?
    The OP's development should indeed make allowance for this. i am open to correction but I am fairly sure the DOE issued guidelines in this regard to all the planning authorities.

    willywilliams, you should try and find the development plan for your county online and look for the section of the plan that details rural housing policy. You should then see a list of exemptions or people/applicants that are deemed to meet the rural housing criteria.Both your engineer and local councillor should be aware of these exemptions.

    In relation to the employment question if your family have a farm get a letter from the registered owner of the farm confirming that you are returning to take charge of the running of the farm on a full time basis*****



    *****I can only tell you to do that if its actually true (go to confessions later) as we dont allow the flaunting of planning regs on this forum ;)


    Edit: You found the answers yourself :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    The development plan for the county, which I assume is similar to most counties states: "Certain special needs are also recognized ... persons local to an area are considered to include ... Returning emigrants who have lived for substantial parts of their lives in rural areas, then moved abroad and who now wish to return to reside near other family members, to work locally, to care for elderly members of their family or to retire." So I meet the definition, and the councillor says it depends on the planner, but most likely I will need to prove I am returning home. I am not sure how I can do that without physically showing up at his/her office with my clothes, kids, dogs and knick knacks. What physical state is a "returning emigrant". If I move home I am an returned emigrant?
    I would think that a letter of confirmation of your status from a local councillor, member of the clergy, solicitor etc would suffice but again you would need this defined by the local planner or most likely it should state this in the development plan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19 willywilliams


    I suppose I should wait and see what happens with the application and if the Planner requests further information (no doubt they will). I like to be proactive, though.
    Thanks for your help.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    muffler wrote: »
    Do you genuinely consider this to be exempted development?

    And would you find this an acceptable way for a client to approach you with a similar problem?

    Is this not a bit odd - giving 2 certs for a new house - one for the house itself and one for an extension to the house. Doesn't add up.


    mickdw, Im not having a go here or nit picking as such but I find your comments a wee bit at odds with planning legislation. I dont think I have seen you posting here before so welcome to the forum. Given your line of work you should be able to offer some good advice here.

    I suggested the two certs as this is how I would handle it if the extension was constructed as an add on to an original house. So yes technically, it is only planning compliant if constructed after the main build. Same end result and worst planning issues are having a blind eye turned.
    Believe me I have clients regularily who do approach me that way.


    Edit: Just stuck my post in there. Better quoting a post so as we know who said what and what the reply related to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 227 ✭✭dfcelt


    Does anyone know if there is a mimimum width/size that a site must adhere to relative to obtaining planning with a septic tank?
    Almost finished my application drgs and current landowner (father in law) is wondering if we could limit our roadside dimension to 30m in order for him to install a new entrance to the rest of his field adjacent to our site. The lane dips quite a bit after about 40m so ideally he would need me to limit our frontage to 30m to enable his new gate to be installed. We can extend back into the field as much as we like and extend across the field as much as we like but its the frontage which may become an issue. I'm thinking of 30m wide at roadside, 40m wide in field & length 60/65m. Any more than 1/2 acre and cutting the lawn will depress me every summer!
    Percolation holes dug and approved for septic tank. Plans of house hopefully finalised this week, I'll post them up here for comments/suggestions/ridicule.


  • Administrators, Sports Moderators Posts: 21,676 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭smashey


    The width would be dictated by the location of the tank and the percolation area which has to be minimum distances from drains, boundaries etc.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 15,944 ✭✭✭✭Villain


    smashey do you have those distances, i.e. tank from dwelling and from well etc?


Advertisement