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Pumped Cavity versus Xtratherm rigid Insulation

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    #32
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The R Tech wrote: »
    What do people think about, the level of workmanship deteriorating when block layers don't have to deal with insulation in the cavity. Such defects as mortar dropping down to the DPC, un-scrapped joints etc. In addition for pumped insulation the deap software requires thermal imaging to ensure there are no air pockets in the corners etc. to use the y-Value.
    Any thoughts guys

    i wouldnt agree, its actually much easier keep a 150+ cavity cleaner than having to deal with partial fill insulation.

    the success of any in-homogenous construction such as a cavity wall is dependent on the workmanship... be it with partial fill, full fill, or pumped insulation.


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    #33
    The R Tech
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭The R Tech


    Sorry i was referring to full fill insulation as partial fill is more or less gone now!
    However it is still very difficult to remove fallen debris or cement from 100mm or 150mm
    Also just a note a 150mm full fill cavity has a u-value of 0.13 Vs 0.19 for pumped bead.
    Sorry just the other point of the thermal imaging for air pockets in the bead or foam insulation what do people think.


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    #34
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The R Tech wrote: »
    Sorry i was referring to full fill insulation as partial fill is more or less gone now!
    However it is still very difficult to remove fallen debris or cement from 100mm or 150mm
    Also just a note a 150mm full fill cavity has a u-value of 0.13 Vs 0.19 for pumped bead.
    Sorry just the other point of the thermal imaging for air pockets in the bead or foam insulation what do people think.

    no its not, a brush will clear most dpcs ????

    as i said, its all down to workmanship, regardless of the insulation method.
    Full fill insulation certainly requires a strong attention to detail and care as well.

    the 0.08 thermal bridging factor is applicable for new builds once the
    relevant drawings be signed off by the developer, builder, site
    engineer or architect

    why do you think thermal imagining would have to be carried out in order to input this value?
    or are you talking about a calculated thermal bridging factor?


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    #35
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,700 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    I can see where R Tech is coming from.

    No matter how many times you drum it into block layers, it is very hard to get them to use some/any form of mechanism to prevent mortar snots dropping down the cavity as the wall is built up.

    A lot easier/fail safe, to a certain extent, to be installing full full insulation at the same time the wall is being built up and clean top of each panel of insulation as they go.


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    #36
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,981 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    DOCARCH wrote: »
    I can see where R Tech is coming from.

    No matter how many times you drum it into block layers, it is very hard to get them to use some/any form of mechanism to prevent mortar snots dropping down the cavity as the wall is built up.

    A lot easier/fail safe, to a certain extent, to be installing full full insulation at the same time the wall is being built up and clean top of each panel of insulation as they go.

    agreed, its easier to keep the cavity clean with full fill insulation.

    however where 'workmanship' comes into the picture here is the installation of the insulation boards themselves. Ive seen probably 5 different house builds using this over the last few years and NONE have been perfect.

    Problems have ranged from gaps between boards horizontally due to mortar on the wall ties, vertical gaps due to boards being 10-20 mm short due to an opening so the gaps are just spaced between the boards, a lack of understanding as to the need to start the insulation 225mm below the finished floor level.

    that being said, its definitely a better system than the partial fill... but its far from a perfect system.

    edit: the cleanest cavities ive seen are the ones where the clients themselves are clued in and remove the mortar droppings themselves.


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    #37
    murphy31ie
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭murphy31ie


    Sorry if this has already been talked about somewhere else, any advice on the best bead to use for pumping the cavity, the cavity is 150mm. Any suggestions are most welcome.


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    #38
    staff1986
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭staff1986


    Hoping to start a direct labour built bungalow in March. Decided to go with 150mm full fill board insulation.

    Is it necessary to tape the joints of the insulation boards?

    Thanks


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    #39
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users Posts: 12,194 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    staff1986 wrote: »
    Hoping to start a direct labour built bungalow in March. Decided to go with 150mm full fill board insulation.

    Is it necessary to tape the joints of the insulation boards?

    Thanks
    yes but the other question is how will u manage the air gaps around the wall ties?

    What made u decide on this solution?
    What did u dismiss and why?

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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    #40
    staff1986
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭staff1986


    I dont know is the honest answer. I will contact the Xtratherm agent who I'm dealing with and try get some information/installation details from him. They are the experts of their own products.

    Initially I was going with bonded bead. I did a good bit of research and one issue which was repeated in a few places was with driving rain on exposed sites. My site is very exposed and this was a concern. My BER guy and a family friend who builds high-spec houses in Dublin both had the same concern over bonded bead (I didnt prompt the question). This made my mind up. If my site wasnt exposed I'd probably still be undecided.

    Regarding options (limited to a budget), there was full fill rigid board v.s. partial fill rigid board and insulated slab on internal wall. It was a lifestyle choice really. insulated slab offers a quick heat up / cool down while the full fill utilises the thermal mass of the blocks which will hold the heat, slowing the heat up / cool down time.

    Hope this helps.


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    #41
    Eleni2015
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭Eleni2015


    Hi Staff, just curious as to how driving rain affects the bonded bead insulation?


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    #42
    staff1986
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭staff1986


    From what I have read/heard driving rain can cause water infiltration through the external leaf into the insulation. The concern is the water will travel across the bonded bead and make contact with the internal leaf. The full fill rigid board insulation acts as a barrier preventing this water ingress. As far as I know this is issue is not a problem / proven fact with bonded bead, but more of a concern shared by some.


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    #43
    BryanF
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 10,140 Mod ✭✭✭✭BryanF


    staff1986 wrote: »
    From what I have read/heard driving rain can cause water infiltration through the external leaf into the insulation. The concern is the water will travel across the bonded bead and make contact with the internal leaf. The full fill rigid board insulation acts as a barrier preventing this water ingress. As far as I know this is issue is not a problem / proven fact with bonded bead, but more of a concern shared by some.
    Unless this is a brick facade:

    Where have you read this?

    This was covered to death here a few year ago, I think the regular posters are just tired of discussing it.

    Beads In Principle are better at avoiding water infiltration over boards


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    #44
    JonathonS
    Registered Users Posts: 702 ✭✭✭JonathonS


    BryanF wrote: »
    Beads In Principle are better at avoiding water infiltration over boards

    +1. You should also consider BASF Walltite, although it is considerably more expensive than beads.


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    #45
    Murphy14
    Registered Users Posts: 167 ✭✭Murphy14


    staff1986 wrote: »
    From what I have read/heard driving rain can cause water infiltration through the external leaf into the insulation. The concern is the water will travel across the bonded bead and make contact with the internal leaf. The full fill rigid board insulation acts as a barrier preventing this water ingress. As far as I know this is issue is not a problem / proven fact with bonded bead, but more of a concern shared by some.
    Water should not travel across bonded bead the adhesive thats used to bond the beads is also a water repellent plus the shape of the bead if water enters cavity it would run down to dpc rather than across


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    #46
    staff1986
    Registered Users Posts: 12 ✭staff1986


    Thanks for the heads up on BASF Walltite.

    Ok fair enough there has been loads of discussions on this before and there's no point in flogging a dead horse, but what would be really helpful to me (I need to make a decision on insulation in next few weeks) would be peoples first hand experience who have constructed houses and lived in houses over the past 1-4 years that have been insulated with bonded bead or xtratherm cavitytherm.

    What was the construction experience like?

    What has comfort level/heating been like in the house?

    Thanks in advance as this would be really helpful to me


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    #47
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    Just at the plastering stage so can't comment on comfort levels yet. The beads took the insulation installation out of the hands of the blockies which was a blessing. I've seen insulation boards on site and between the blockies and the weather the quality of the rigid board construction was poor. Anyway, just my experience!


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    #48
    qaz123
    Registered Users Posts: 60 ✭✭qaz123


    Currently trying to decide to go for 110mm partial fill board with 50 mm thermal board sand and cemented or 150mm full fill xtratherm insulation.

    Looking for people with experience of either with underfloor heating run by heat pump.
    How do you find it


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    #49
    BarneyMc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭BarneyMc


    qaz123 wrote: »
    Currently trying to decide to go for 110mm partial fill board with 50 mm thermal board sand and cemented or 150mm full fill xtratherm insulation.

    Looking for people with experience of either with underfloor heating run by heat pump.
    How do you find it

    If it's down to those 2 choices then the latter. Keep your insulation in 1 layer.


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    #50
    bravojohnny
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭bravojohnny


    ^^^^
    This

    In my opinion insulation should be in kept in the same location.


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    #51
    Elsie161211
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭Elsie161211


    How about a 110mm partial fill with a 6" Quinnlite block, scratch coat and plaster. No need for insulated board on the inside then?


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