Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

10-07-2017 6:18pm

That line used to be double tracked between Galway and Mullingar, so there would be no need to CPO any extra land.

Stephen15 · 10-07-2017 6:28pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That line used to be double tracked between Galway and Mullingar, so there would be no need to CPO any extra land.

Why were the Galway trains moved it was before my time but it seems silly if the line was double track.

10-07-2017 6:30pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why were the Galway trains moved it was before my time but it seems silly if the line was double track.

Something to do with capacity in Dublin I think (they did close Broadstone).

Stephen15 · 10-07-2017 6:36pm

westtip wrote: »

Actually I would not disagree with double tracking Athlone - Galway indeed that would have been a better way to spend the 105 million wasted on Athenry Ennis, and is what a good rail lobby for the west would have fought for as it would allow express trains and slower stopping trains on the line at the same time. For example a train leaving Galway at 7 in the morning arriving in Dublin at 8.30 - that is what the rail lobby should have fought for. If it were to be double tracked it would probably require more land alongside it to be CPO'd, so adding a greenway wouldn't be a problem. The problem with West on Track is that they let the train lobby down by campaigning for a heap of S H one T which has probably set back railway lobbying for decades (in the west at least)

I agree with that to an extent but I feel that WRC made sense if the line speeds were faster and there was a better frequency more might use it. I'm in Italy on holidays currently and I have to say the trains in Ireland are like toy trains compared to the fast electric trains. There's also a better choice of trains with high speed services, Intercity services and cheap stopping regional services.

Del.Monte · 10-07-2017 8:45pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Why were the Galway trains moved it was before my time but it seems silly if the line was double track.

The Athlone/Mullingar line was singled by the GSR long before the Galway trains were moved to Heuston in 1973.

marno21 · 10-07-2017 8:50pm

L1011 wrote: »

Rosslare is a roro port. It will not help rail no matter how much more important it gets.

Apologies, was getting mixed up between ports during those posts last night. Long drive home from the Munster final didn't help...

Del.Monte wrote: »

I've no idea what age you are, but can only put down your naive optimism over closures to your youth or that you're new to the railway scene. Both Tralee and Sligo lines have been proposed for closure previously and when they carried freight as well as passenger traffic. It's long been Govt./CIE's policy to withdraw east of the Shannon and if you don't believe me you should get out some of the old reports - McKinsey etc. and have read before you dismiss anyone with a different opinion as talking nonsense.

I am in my early twenties - you can say whatever about me being "naively optimistic" or whatever, but there's no need for unfounded cynicism either.

Of course there will be a plan to close Limerick-Ballybrophy when it has the subvention figures it has and the low ridership. It's an outlier in the Irish rail network, and the lack of passengers means there will be little objection to its closure.

Tralee and Sligo have much lower (30x) subventions per passenger and the vast amounts of passengers using these services along with political campaigning will mean they won't be closed.

It's a miracle Limerick-Ballybrophy wasn't closed down 40 years ago, it's been tried with better timetables in the last few years and its still not viable.

end of the road · 10-07-2017 9:05pm

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies, was getting mixed up between ports during those posts last night. Long drive home from the Munster final didn't help...

I am in my early twenties - you can say whatever about me being "naively optimistic" or whatever, but there's no need for unfounded cynicism either.

Of course there will be a plan to close Limerick-Ballybrophy when it has the subvention figures it has and the low ridership. It's an outlier in the Irish rail network, and the lack of passengers means there will be little objection to its closure.

Tralee and Sligo have much lower (30x) subventions per passenger and the vast amounts of passengers using these services along with political campaigning will mean they won't be closed.

It's a miracle Limerick-Ballybrophy wasn't closed down 40 years ago, it's been tried with better timetables in the last few years and its still not viable.

barely tried on very margianel timetables on barely able to function infrastructure dispite money been spent on relaying some track. of course it's not going to work or be viable.
nothing can be done for it now but a functioning country wouldn't have allowed CIE to run it into the ground or behave toards it as it has. it will go eventually but it won't stop at that and don't under estimate the idea of sligo and others becoming targets for closure again in the future.

McAlban · 10-07-2017 9:28pm

It's Just too slow,

e.g. If you live a 5 Minute Walk from Nenagh Station, and work In Premier Business Centre or Eastway Business Park on the Ballysimon Road in Limerick. You can get the 7.45 Train to Colbert, Walk to the Firestation and get the Eurobus out the Ballysimon Road, and If you're very Lucky. Make it to work by 09:00.

Or you can have the extra Half Hour in Bed, Take the Car at 8.15, have time to stop in for a coffee at Junction 27 and still be in work before 9.

IE 222 · 10-07-2017 9:59pm

The locals have just as much to blame for the poor performance as does IE. If there is no demand there ain't much point providing a service, 20 - 30 people aint demand. Maybe a Neagh - Dublin service could work in the future. These rural lines will struggle unless someone pushes large social/affordable housing developments along the lines and force people into them.

eastwest · 10-07-2017 10:04pm

end of the road wrote: »

i don't remember saying it was.

if that was the case the subsidies to the railway would be a lot higher then they are, and as things stand they are quite small. there will be some on free travel and expences but i would have no reason what so ever to believe they are in a majority in any way.
trains are actually a safer way to travel then a bus ever could, anti-social behaviour is the only issue that would make it a bit unsafe and that is very easily fixed.

Irish Rail are paid by dept of social protection for the free travel scheme.

Grandeeod · 10-07-2017 10:15pm

marno21 wrote: »

Apologies, was getting mixed up between ports during those posts last night. Long drive home from the Munster final didn't help...

I am in my early twenties - you can say whatever about me being "naively optimistic" or whatever, but there's no need for unfounded cynicism either.

Of course there will be a plan to close Limerick-Ballybrophy when it has the subvention figures it has and the low ridership. It's an outlier in the Irish rail network, and the lack of passengers means there will be little objection to its closure.

Tralee and Sligo have much lower (30x) subventions per passenger and the vast amounts of passengers using these services along with political campaigning will mean they won't be closed.

It's a miracle Limerick-Ballybrophy wasn't closed down 40 years ago, it's been tried with better timetables in the last few years and its still not viable.

Hi Marno.

I've bolded one sentence in your post and I believe its the cause of a lot of issues on this forum and others. What I would say is that there is a political culture in Ireland towards major and I mean "major" rail projects in this country that is inherently negative. The supporting evidence lies in history and until something major like MN or DU is actually built, then history will still continue to support justified cynicism. I note your age and I respect you revealing it. That said I believe you should have some respect for the cynical views of the older generation because some of them have been directly involved in trying to improve things both before the birth of the internet and during the internets infancy days. Nothing has changed. MN and DU are still no nearer to being realised. The projects were mooted when you were probably around a single digit age. DART and an underground railway for Dublin was mooted when I was around 3 years old back in the early 1970s. The cynicism is well founded.

IE 222 · 10-07-2017 10:16pm

eastwest wrote: »

Irish Rail are paid by dept of social protection for the free travel scheme.

Getting it is the problem. They only get a fraction of what they should be receiving.

marno21 · 10-07-2017 11:26pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Hi Marno.

I've bolded one sentence in your post and I believe its the cause of a lot of issues on this forum and others. What I would say is that there is a political culture in Ireland towards major and I mean "major" rail projects in this country that is inherently negative. The supporting evidence lies in history and until something major like MN or DU is actually built, then history will still continue to support justified cynicism. I note your age and I respect you revealing it. That said I believe you should have some respect for the cynical views of the older generation because some of them have been directly involved in trying to improve things both before the birth of the internet and during the internets infancy days. Nothing has changed. MN and DU are still no nearer to being realised. The projects were mooted when you were probably around a single digit age. DART and an underground railway for Dublin was mooted when I was around 3 years old back in the early 1970s. The cynicism is well founded.

Well in fairness, I was talking about line closures as opposed to new projects.

I'm not surprised DART Underground is being long fingered. If I were in charge I wouldn't give that volume of money to a Union strangled mess like CIE.

What I'm on about is the belief that CIE are going to have Mallow-Tralee, Longford-Sligo etc closed. That simply will not fly.

end of the road · 11-07-2017 12:11am

marno21 wrote: »

Well in fairness, I was talking about line closures as opposed to new projects.

I'm not surprised DART Underground is being long fingered. If I were in charge I wouldn't give that volume of money to a Union strangled mess like CIE.

the thing is whoever you would give the money to is very likely to have a union. so the question then is whether it is worth not having critical infrastructure that needed building years ago because a pay rise might be asked for. in my view no . politics will decide whether we get it in the end. i reccan we never will.

marno21 wrote: »

What I'm on about is the belief that CIE are going to have Mallow-Tralee, Longford-Sligo etc closed. That simply will not fly.

i bet people thought the same back in the 50s and later about the couple of more controversial closure proposals that ended up being caried out, that they wouldn't fly. it did fly and they happened.
we will see in time which of us is right. i hope it is you who is right. i certainly don't want to be the one proven right.

Grandeeod · 11-07-2017 12:12am

marno21 wrote: »

What I'm on about is the belief that CIE are going to have Mallow-Tralee, Longford-Sligo etc closed. That simply will not fly.

In your opinion, it may not fly, but once again history suggests you are wrong. Since the 1970s Limerick - Ballybrophy and Rosslare - Waterford were singled out for closure. One has happened already, while the other is being talked about yet again. In fact as recently as 2002 CIE wanted to close the entire Rosslare - Limerick Junction route. They are nearly there.

As for the Sligo line, it is being discussed already.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/sligodublin-rail-service-under-threat-35233693.html

In a broader picture, a lot is being considered.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/rail-report-routes-around-country-at-risk-of-closure-1.2840423

These closures have been on the cards for years now and as the years progress it would appear that many may be imminent. I'm not defending any of it or promoting any kind of defense against closure. I am merely pointing out to you that these issues are alive and shrouded in history, which in turn leads to a very healthy and justified cynicism from those of us embroiled in this history as witnesses. Its worth your while considering this.

Stephen15 · 11-07-2017 12:34am

end of the road wrote: »

the thing is whoever you would give the money to is very likely to have a union. so the question then is whether it is worth not having critical infrastructure that needed building years ago because a pay rise might be asked for. in my view no . politics will decide whether we get it in the end. i reccan we never will.

i bet people thought the same back in the 50s and later about the couple of more controversial closure proposals that ended up being caried out, that they wouldn't fly. it did fly and they happened.
we will see in time which of us is right. i hope it is you who is right. i certainly don't want to be the one proven right.

Roads don't have a union

1950's and today different time and place. The EU wasn't around back then and there weren't very many lobby groups either. I would somewhat think that IE is saying that they'd close certain lines because they are playing a game to try and secure more goverment and EU funding since there have been many EU funded rail projects across Europe which some would argue have been a great waste of money.

Ste.phen · 11-07-2017 9:04am

Stephen15 wrote: »

My suggestion for the Dublin to Galway would revert the trains back to Connolly via the disused Mullingar to Athone line which is now a greenway with the track still in place.

I cycled that greenway back in April- the tracks are semi-present, by which I mean the greenway tarmac covers one set of the two sets of tracks (unsure if they're still under there or were removed) but it switches which set is visible/which side of the alignment is the cycle greenway periodically - there isn't a complete alignment currently.

(Not to mention the removed level crossings)

Idbatterim · 11-07-2017 10:36am

the relatively small distances in Ireland, Irish Rail, only one population centre of any significance. I read about the fortune that is going to be thrown at road building again in a government announcement expected this week. Honestly, self driving cars wont be too far off in terms of Irish planning timescales...

hytrogen · 11-07-2017 4:30pm

marno21 wrote:

It's a miracle Limerick-Ballybrophy wasn't closed down 40 years ago, it's been tried with better timetables in the last few years and its still not viable.

If they had kept the branch line as far as Ballina/Killaloe you wouldn't have the mayhem each day on that bridge and plenty more people would be using it to commute to Limerick each day.
It's quite a busy and scenic twintownship to be fair but a bottleneck nonetheless with commuters getting onto the motorway or to Nenagh.

marno21 · 11-07-2017 6:44pm

end of the road wrote: »

the thing is whoever you would give the money to is very likely to have a union. so the question then is whether it is worth not having critical infrastructure that needed building years ago because a pay rise might be asked for. in my view no . politics will decide whether we get it in the end. i reccan we never will.

i bet people thought the same back in the 50s and later about the couple of more controversial closure proposals that ended up being caried out, that they wouldn't fly. it did fly and they happened.
we will see in time which of us is right. i hope it is you who is right. i certainly don't want to be the one proven right.

CIE is an inefficient riddled mess of an organisation that completely fails to live up to its remit. Giving 4bn euro to them for capex is a bit much now in fairness.

Most of Ireland's remaining network is either Dublin centred or used for suburban services e.g. the Cork suburban. Dublin works well as a destination because

1. It's quite far from a lot of the places served by rail
2. A lot of people need to go there
3. It's got a reasonably good (by Irish standards) public transport network
4. It can be quite difficult and slow to drive around there.

Most services between cities not Dublin are not viable because:

1. A large proportion of workers don't work near the railway station
2. As per point 1, there is terrible access from most parts of the city by train/bus to the terminal station
3. There are less people needing to travel between the cities/to the cities
4. In most cases, its easier to drive.

Besides Dublin and commuter rail, you have:

* Limerick-Galway (specifically Ennis-Athenry, people commute to Limerick from Ennis)
* Limerick-Ballybrophy
* Limerick Junction-Waterford

If I work in Raheen/Castletroy, why would I get the train to Limerick when it would take me 3/4x as long to get to work?

Grandeeod wrote: »

In your opinion, it may not fly, but once again history suggests you are wrong. Since the 1970s Limerick - Ballybrophy and Rosslare - Waterford were singled out for closure. One has happened already, while the other is being talked about yet again. In fact as recently as 2002 CIE wanted to close the entire Rosslare - Limerick Junction route. They are nearly there.

As for the Sligo line, it is being discussed already.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/sligodublin-rail-service-under-threat-35233693.html

In a broader picture, a lot is being considered.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/rail-report-routes-around-country-at-risk-of-closure-1.2840423

These closures have been on the cards for years now and as the years progress it would appear that many may be imminent. I'm not defending any of it or promoting any kind of defense against closure. I am merely pointing out to you that these issues are alive and shrouded in history, which in turn leads to a very healthy and justified cynicism from those of us embroiled in this history as witnesses. Its worth your while considering this.

I'm not surprised they are trying to close the Lim-Wat and Lim-Ballybrophy line given user figures.

The Sligo line closure talk is, in my opinion, kite flying to highlight funding shortages. A much better way to sort this would be complete reform of the rail sector.

A lot of the service closed in the past weren't viable either.

hytrogen wrote: »

If they had kept the branch line as far as Ballina/Killaloe you wouldn't have the mayhem each day on that bridge and plenty more people would be using it to commute to Limerick each day.
It's quite a busy and scenic twintownship to be fair but a bottleneck nonetheless with commuters getting onto the motorway or to Nenagh.

The mayhem on the bridge is being solved with a new bridge. If there was a rail service there would be mayhem at the railway station because everyone would still need to drive into the train station.

Nevertheless, most people in Limerick don't work near the train station.

Quackster · 11-07-2017 7:12pm

We thought we'd never have a decent stadium in this country. Now we have several.

We thought we'd never have a 50m pool in this country. Now we have several.

We thought we'd never have a decent motorway network in this country. Now we're getting there.

Significantly enhanced rail services for the Greater Dublin region will eventually be delivered as the percentage of TDs representing the region in the Dail continues to increase and because these enhanced rail services are actually needed.

Meanwhile, fantasies such as the WRC will fade from memory while we're all out enjoying the health benefits of our national integrated greenway network!

end of the road · 11-07-2017 7:14pm

marno21 wrote: »

CIE is an inefficient riddled mess of an organisation that completely fails to live up to its remit. Giving 4bn euro to them for capex is a bit much now in fairness.

well who else are we going to give it to. set up a new state operator and close CIE? well i'd agree with that. either way, why should we remain without critical infrastructure?

marno21 wrote: »

I'm not surprised they are trying to close the Lim-Wat and Lim-Ballybrophy line given user figures.

IE's reasoning for closing lines is nothing to do with user figures. never has been and never will be. it's part of their own agenda, or a government agenda, i'm not sure which.
limerick junction to waterford has the potential for decent user figures and can still be brought back from the brink. the infrastructure has mostly been renewed and there is no reason that speeds couldn't be improved quickly and cheaply. the sligo line was on the verge of closure even in the early 90s dispite having good user figures, so to think it couldn't become a target again is a very big under estimation of IE'S capability.

marno21 wrote: »

A lot of the service closed in the past weren't viable either.

yes, a number weren't. a couple however were going through quite a rough patch but could have been viable again. the people at the time however thought the closure of those services wouldn't fly, and they did.

Grandeeod · 11-07-2017 7:19pm

marno21 wrote: »

The Sligo line closure talk is, in my opinion, kite flying to highlight funding shortages. A much better way to sort this would be complete reform of the rail sector.

Back in the 1970s and as recently as 2002, the Rosslare - LJ and Ballybrophy - Limerick routes were used as kite flying exercises to highlight funding shortages. In fact much of the closure of the network in the early 60s was based on "funding shortages" and happened because road congestion wasn't an issue. I appreciate completely that many closures were justified, but the policy took a lot of railways with it that we would really appreciate today.

Do not doubt that the kite flying exercises in relation to Sligo, Tralee, Rosslare or even Mayo will result in closure during your lifetime. CIE and Irish politicians have a repetitive and negative attitude to railways and you will never see any kind of reform of the rail sector within CIE operated lines due to a historically created culture that runs from the Government all the way through management, staff and unions. Its septic. A failed brand. A failed experiment dating back to the 1940s that's now based on entitlement and conflict. the customer is a mere victim.

Grandeeod · 11-07-2017 7:26pm

Quackster wrote: »

We thought we'd never have a decent stadium in this country. Now we have several.

We thought we'd never have a 50m pool in this country. Now we have several.

We thought we'd never have a decent motorway network in this country. Now we're getting there.

Significantly enhanced rail services for the Greater Dublin region will eventually be delivered as the percentage of TDs representing the region in the Dail continues to increase and because these enhanced rail services are actually needed.

Meanwhile, fantasies such as the WRC will fade from memory while we're all out enjoying the health benefits of our national integrated greenway network!

The WRC is a fooking joke. We know that. But it will take at least another generation (imo) for Dublin to get close to what it needs as the rural mentality is driven out of even Dublin based TDs.

As for all that talk about pools, motorways and stadiums...tonnes of money was spent on them and they commanded a lot more media/Government time than railways as far back as the 1970s. Nice sentiments but no linky.

Del.Monte · 11-07-2017 7:35pm

@ marno21 It's a chicken and egg situation and if you don't provide a service at times that suit people then it's hardly surprising that it's not used. Before your time - as far back as the 1960s/70s CIE were providing a diabolical service on routes such as the Limerick Jn/Rosslare line and in its latter stage it was beyond useless.

Apart from the timetable between Waterford and Rosslare it was the demolition of the line - while in use - that had to be seen to be believed. One station - Ballycullane - had no buildings at all and not even a nameboard! At the end the trains were timed to suit nobody but the staff.

At the other end of the route - Cahir was one of the demanned stations and things were so bad there that if the daily train didn't arrive you didn't have any way of finding out what had happened. Eventually CIE gave into public outcry and installed a 'payphone' so that you could ring Clonmel or Limerick Junction to find out what the story was.

What so many of people seem unable to comprehend is that just because CIE can't run a proverbial piss-up in a brewery it does not follow that roads are good and railways are bad.

There are all sorts of EU fines coming down the tracks (sorry) for Ireland not meeting itsr greenhouse gas emissions that will make CIE's losses pale into insignificance and, please, don't tell me about driverless cars running on magic electricity and farting cows..I'm out of this thread - for now.

eastwest · 11-07-2017 8:24pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

There are all sorts of EU fines coming down the tracks (sorry) for Ireland not meeting itsr greenhouse gas emissions that will make CIE's losses pale into insignificance and, please, don't tell me about driverless cars running on magic electricity and farting cows..I'm out of this thread - for now.

A train carrying eight or ten passengers is anything but green; a minibus or a couple of cars will generate far less greenhouse gases than a locomotive hauling tons of empty carriages through the countryside.
Still, you can set you watch by it, if you still use a watch.

end of the road · 11-07-2017 8:46pm

eastwest wrote: »

A train carrying eight or ten passengers is anything but green

it will always be greener then the road traffic. it has to run anyway as it has a return journey to make which may have multiples of the numbers.

eastwest wrote: »

a minibus or a couple of cars will generate far less greenhouse gases than a locomotive hauling tons of empty carriages through the countryside.

except we don't have locomotives hauling tons of empty carriages through the countryside, all services bar some cork and all belfast services are operated by multiple units (the intercity type units are actually quite clean in terms of emissions)
the wrc is mostly 2 car sets apart from the certain trains which require more carriges. the number of cars and minny buses that would be required to take all the passengers from the services that do get good loadings are unlikely to be greener when added up.

Grandeeod · 11-07-2017 8:48pm

For a few years now I have realised that my opinion of rail transport in Ireland fills the gap between this kind of opinion-

Del.Monte wrote: »

@ marno21 It's a chicken and egg situation and if you don't provide a service at times that suit people then it's hardly surprising that it's not used. Before your time - as far back as the 1960s/70s CIE were providing a diabolical service on routes such as the Limerick Jn/Rosslare line and in its latter stage it was beyond useless.

Apart from the timetable between Waterford and Rosslare it was the demolition of the line - while in use - that had to be seen to be believed. One station - Ballycullane - had no buildings at all and not even a nameboard! At the end the trains were timed to suit nobody but the staff.

At the other end of the route - Cahir was one of the demanned stations and things were so bad there that if the daily train didn't arrive you didn't have any way of finding out what had happened. Eventually CIE gave into public outcry and installed a 'payphone' so that you could ring Clonmel or Limerick Junction to find out what the story was.

What so many of people seem unable to comprehend is that just because CIE can't run a proverbial piss-up in a brewery it does not follow that roads are good and railways are bad.

There are all sorts of EU fines coming down the tracks (sorry) for Ireland not meeting itsr greenhouse gas emissions that will make CIE's losses pale into insignificance and, please, don't tell me about driverless cars running on magic electricity and farting cows..I'm out of this thread - for now.

- and this kind of opinion.

eastwest wrote: »

A train carrying eight or ten passengers is anything but green; a minibus or a couple of cars will generate far less greenhouse gases than a locomotive hauling tons of empty carriages through the countryside.
Still, you can set you watch by it, if you still use a watch.

It's a lonely place.:(

Stephen15 · 11-07-2017 10:35pm

end of the road wrote: »

IE's reasoning for closing lines is nothing to do with user figures. never has been and never will be. it's part of their own agenda, or a government agenda, i'm not sure which.
limerick junction to waterford has the potential for decent user figures and can still be brought back from the brink. the infrastructure has mostly been renewed and there is no reason that speeds couldn't be improved quickly and cheaply. the sligo line was on the verge of closure even in the early 90s dispite having good user figures, so to think it couldn't become a target again is a very big under estimation of IE'S capability.

Limerick Junction is not a town or a city and Waterford is a dump. Everyone wants to go to Dublin or Cork not Waterford or Limerick Junction. Trains need to connect population centres in order to be viable not some rural backwater which the Limerick Junction to Waterford line and the Limerick to Ballybrophy line. In fact nearly all the lines in Ireland just connect rural areas to cities even Dublin to Cork none of the stops are large places. Only line in Ireland that doesn't do this is Dublin to Belfast which has some biggish towns on the line.

marno21 · 11-07-2017 10:39pm

I'll reply to all the posts with one because they're very similar.

I'm in agreement with most of what the pro-rail posters are saying. The rail network is an important part of the Irish transport network, both the intercity lines and the commuter services.

I think that Limerick-Ballybrophy should be closed for several reasons, mainly the subvention costs and the fact that no amount of viable improvements can save it. It's a relic from the older days and its a miracle its still here, it's only here in 2017 because of Alan Kelly.

Limerick-Waterford is a joke of a line simply because of the way CIE run it. It would be just about able to sustain itself if parts of the track were improved and a proper service was run, along with Sunday services.

Athenry-Ennis will stay cos its new. Gorey-Rosslare will struggle with the new M11 but I'd hope it stays.

Whatever about CIE closing lines one by one; beyond the 4 mentioned above, the rest are not heavy loss makers and carry a relatively decent amount of passengers.

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Comments