Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

woodchopper · 05-02-2014 11:59pm

T runner wrote: »

Are you a troll?

Woodie, 3:45 km pace is 94% of 2:30 pace not 103%. Being able to convert from mile to km pace and understanding %-ages is an advantage in this game young man.

.

Your Marathon pb is 2.35 not 2.29xx. Therefore your marathon pace is about 5.55-56. Using Canova method 356 seconds multiplied by 26.2= 9327.2 divided by 60( 60 minutes in an hour)= 155.45. This is 2 hours and 35 minutes and change. Your current MP is 5.56 based of pb.

Now 22 miles at 3.45km equals to about 22 at 6 minutes pace. So you are right its not 103% its 99.5-100%. You must be the only athlete on the planet that could run 22 miles at race pace and recover. I guess your like a fine wine you get better with age! I think its time you actually got a coach because left to your own devices Im afraid its a recipe for disaster.

Also hammer a couple of hard 5ks in the taper phase just to sharpen these aging legs!

Chivito550 · 06-02-2014 9:43am

I know bugger all about marathon training at that level but your bickering reminded me of something. A club mate of mine ran the Melbourne marathon in 2:26 last year. In training he ran a full marathon in 2:32. Insane stuff. It worked out well for him though.

TRR · 06-02-2014 11:13am

Chivito550 wrote: »

I know bugger all about marathon training at that level but your bickering reminded me of something. A club mate of mine ran the Melbourne marathon in 2:26 last year. In training he ran a full marathon in 2:32. Insane stuff. It worked out well for him though.

Wouldn't see that as a success personally. Sean Hehir posted up a 27 mile run on facebook that worked out around 2.32 for a marathon before DCM and then ran 2.18 on the day. That's a 14 minute differential or 30+ seconds. That seems more appropriate. Not knowing anything about your clubmate or his running history but at first glance looks like he may have overcooked that training run if that was his return marathon day.

Krusty_Clown · 06-02-2014 12:11pm

Hi T-Runner, just so it's clear, are you talking about running 25k at 95% (e.g. faster) than planned marathon pace, or running 25k at 105% (marathon pace plus 5%)?

95% = 3:22/km (5:26/mile)
105% = 3:44/km (6:00/mile)
(based on a target of 2:29:45).

I presume it's not the latter, as it's a pretty straightforward marathon session (Jack Daniels has a number of 15 mile/24km sessions at 100% of marathon pace. If it's the former, the problem I'd see is that you're running 25k at half-marathon pace, which would suggest that your half-marathon pace should be faster (and by consequence, your marathon target should be more aggressive).

TRR · 06-02-2014 1:11pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi T-Runner, just so it's clear, are you talking about running 25k at 95% (e.g. faster) than planned marathon pace, or running 25k at 105% (marathon pace plus 5%)?

95% = 3:22/km (5:26/mile)
105% = 3:44/km (6:00/mile)
(based on a target of 2:29:45).

Thanks for asking this, I thought I was just being a bit thick

Chivito550 · 06-02-2014 1:17pm

TRR wrote: »

Wouldn't see that as a success personally. Sean Hehir posted up a 27 mile run on facebook that worked out around 2.32 for a marathon before DCM and then ran 2.18 on the day. That's a 14 minute differential or 30+ seconds. That seems more appropriate. Not knowing anything about your clubmate or his running history but at first glance looks like he may have overcooked that training run if that was his return marathon day.

I dunno. He was absolutely over the moon with his result. By all accounts he's running marathons in training every 2 weeks. The approach is quite Japanese, which is where his background is, so that may explain things.

Larry Brent · 06-02-2014 1:42pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi T-Runner, just so it's clear, are you talking about running 25k at 95% (e.g. faster) than planned marathon pace, or running 25k at 105% (marathon pace plus 5%)?

95% = 3:22/km (5:26/mile)
105% = 3:44/km (6:00/mile)
(based on a target of 2:29:45).

I presume it's not the latter, as it's a pretty straightforward marathon session (Jack Daniels has a number of 15 mile/24km sessions at 100% of marathon pace. If it's the former, the problem I'd see is that you're running 25k at half-marathon pace, which would suggest that your half-marathon pace should be faster (and by consequence, your marathon target should be more aggressive).

95% MP is slower than MP, 105% is faster as Canova uses these percentages. Think 95% ‘effort' - this will be easier than an all out 100% effort.

From the John Davis .pdf ‘Something New in Marathon Training

A note on percentages: Renato Canova calculates percentages of speeds differently than most Americans. For example, to calculate 90% of 5:00 mile pace, an American would do the following:
5: 00 / 0.90 = 5: 33.3

However, Renato Canova does the following:
(5: 00 / 100) × 10 + 5: 00 = 5: 30.0

While the difference here is small, it can become significant in different scenarios. The logic is that 90%
slower than 5:00 pace is that same pace plus 10%.

T runner · 06-02-2014 1:50pm

woodchopper wrote: »

Your Marathon pb is 2.35 not 2.29xx. Therefore your marathon pace is about 5.55-56. Using Canova method 356 seconds multiplied by 26.2= 9327.2 divided by 60( 60 minutes in an hour)= 155.45. This is 2 hours and 35 minutes and change. Your current MP is 5.56 based of pb.

Now 22 miles at 3.45km equals to about 22 at 6 minutes pace. So you are right its not 103% its 99.5-100%. You must be the only athlete on the planet that could run 22 miles at race pace and recover. I guess your like a fine wine you get better with age! I think its time you actually got a coach because left to your own devices Im afraid its a recipe for disaster.

Also hammer a couple of hard 5ks in the taper phase just to sharpen these aging legs!

Look Woodie. 2:30 pace is a significant improvement on 2:35 pace. Canova's calculations assume current PB close to Target PB.

When I run these sessions, presumably I will be closer to 2:30 fitness than 2:35 fitness. If my marathon PB happened to be 2:40 are you suggesting I should base my specific sessions around that pace?

When I ran my last marathon, my PR was 2:45.
That means that when I ran 25k @ 3:46 that was 25k @ 105% of WMP (according to you.) and that marked me for "disaster".

*Note WMP=Woodie's suggested MP

Similarly this session I did in 2012, according to you, would translate to:

15k @ 4min pace (97.5% WMP) 5 k @ 1min hard 1 min easy (>100% WMP)
10k @ 2:30 MP (=110% WMP)
2k easy
3k all out uphill.(=110% WMP)

Current marathon fitness and Target marathon pace are most important, especially when current PR is a lot slower than target PR.
We'll have to give Woodie's MP the oul Woodie angry face :mad:.

Below is the quote from Lets run where Canova suggests a duration run progression for a 2:30 marathoner.

He suggests two alternating long runs: 3:40 pace for 2hrs30, and a specific marathon paced long run involving PMP pace.

Both of his suggestions are too hard for me. However, I understand the reasoning of the sessions. They should be as specific as possible.
For me that means the progressions I outlined, culminating in 35k @ 3:45. and 5 x 5k pmp with a float 1k recovery. I will use progressive sessions to try and make those sessions. Even if I don't get there, my training will have been as specific as possible for me assuming the target pace is right for me.

Apologies to Charlie Chaplin for my last post. His autobiography is the funniest thing you could ever read.

"A coach is like a parent. Your role is to teach and to help grow."

When I speak about FAST LONG RUN, don't think that ALWAYS long run must be fast. If I go to prepare a Marathon, I use one specific long run every week, alternating two different ways :
a) DURATION - I don't have particular care about the pace. I start from 1:30, and in short time I move to 1:45 - 2:00 - 2:15 - 2:30. This training is at 70% of your HM pace (for ex., if you have a PB in HM of 70.20 that is a pace of 3:20 per km, and is the first time that you want to prepare a marathon, your pace for DURATION can start from 4:20. At the beginning of your training (may be 5 months before your Marathon), once a week you go for DURATION, in order to reach the ability in lasting the full marathon time, in short time, because your long run is very easy.

b) When you are able running, for example, 2:30, you can start to qualify the DURATION using a progression for the last 15:00, after 30:00, and so and so.

c) But, when you are able running 2:30 of DURATION, you start also your training of DISTANCE. Distance is a precise distance (forgive me again), that you go to run at even pace, about 90/95% of your HM pace (and this has to become your Marathon pace).....

d) When you have both DURATION and DISTANCE in your program, the system is TO QUALIFY THE SPEED OF THE DURATION, and TO EXTEND THE DURATION OF THE PACE OF THE DISTANCE. You can alternate these 2 long runs, one in one week, the second in the next week. At the end, you become able to build a funnel, ***where your DURATION is 2:30 at 3:40***, and your DISTANCE are 36 or 38 km at 3:30. When you are able to do this, be sure that you can run your full marathon at 3:30 finishing faster the last 10k, and, if you go for a HM one month before your Marathon (of course we can use, in every week, another specific workout of extension : so, no more than 2 workouts per week), your PB can move from 65 to 64 without big problems.
All the other days are for GENERAL VOLUME (many km slow or following your sensation, in any case easy) or for RECRUITMENT OF THE HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF FIBRES (using very short sprints uphill).

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?

T runner · 06-02-2014 2:44pm

Sorry about the confusion. I meant paces as Larry has explained. So 95% of MP is got by multiplying MP by 1.05

To calculate quickly, I always know what 10% of PMP is (21s for 2:30 target) and can easily work things out once I remember that.

Chivito550 wrote: »

I know bugger all about marathon training at that level but your bickering reminded me of something. A club mate of mine ran the Melbourne marathon in 2:26 last year. In training he ran a full marathon in 2:32. Insane stuff. It worked out well for him though.

TRR wrote: »

Wouldn't see that as a success personally. Sean Hehir posted up a 27 mile run on facebook that worked out around 2.32 for a marathon before DCM and then ran 2.18 on the day. That's a 14 minute differential or 30+ seconds. That seems more appropriate. Not knowing anything about your clubmate or his running history but at first glance looks like he may have overcooked that training run if that was his return marathon day.

Chivito550 wrote: »

I dunno. He was absolutely over the moon with his result. By all accounts he's running marathons in training every 2 weeks. The approach is quite Japanese, which is where his background is, so that may explain things.

One suggestion (Canova) is to build to a run of race duration @ 95% race pace.
Assuming the clubmate was targeting 2:25, That would be 95% of that, but continuing for the distance. He was happy with the result so that might fit.

Another consideration is the predisposition of the runner.

To run and recover from these marathon distance workouts he'd have to be slow twitch guy big time. You don't want to exhaust your type 2a fibres during this run. But not a problem for a slow twitch guy. He doesnt have that many anyway, and his marathon speed is coming massively from his slow twitch fibres. He gets his time from running long distances progressively faster.
Possibly a potential ultra elite runner?

Sean may have a lot more medium fibres. He has great aerobic power (lots of type 2's) and achives his marathon time by extending his aerobic power to race relevant distances. He still has to be able to run the whole distance at fast pace in training, but running at too close to race pace will give him a recovery problem that the other runner might not face.

Might be an explanation..might be complete horses**t.

Chivito550 · 06-02-2014 3:03pm

T runner wrote: »

Soory about the confusion. I meant paces as Larry has explained. So 95% of MP is got by multiplying MP by 1.05

To calculate quickly, I always know what 10% of PMP is (21s for 2:30 target) and can easily work things out once I remember that.

One suggestion (Canova) is to build to a run of race duration @ 95% race pace.
Assuming the clubmate was targeting 2:25, That would be 95% of that, but continuing for the distance. He was happy with the result so that might fit.

Another consideration is the predisposition of the runner.

To run and recover from these marathon distance workouts he'd have to be slow twitch guy big time. You don't want to exhaust your type 2a fibres during this run. But not a problem for a slow twitch guy. He doesnt have that many anyway, and his marathon speed is coming massively from his slow twitch fibres. He gets his time from running long distances progressively faster.
Possibly a potential ultra elite runner?

Sean may have a lot more medium fibres. He has great aerobic power (lots of type 2's) and achives his marathon time by extending his aerobic power to race relevant distances. He still has to be able to run the whole distance at fast pace in training, but running at too close to race pace will give him a recovery problem that the other runner might not face.

Might be an explanation..might be complete horses**t. Only Woodie will now. Woodie?

Certainly one theory. He has run 1:57 for 800m in the past though, so he doesn't lack speed. It's a bit of a head scratcher. There could definitely be a cultural element to it. The Japanese have been known for unorthodox methods of running and training for marathons.

drquirky · 06-02-2014 3:15pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Certainly one theory. He has run 1:57 for 800m in the past though, so he doesn't lack speed. It's a bit of a head scratcher. There could definitely be a cultural element to it. The Japanese have been known for unorthodox methods of running and training for marathons.

Lots of ways to skin a cat! Sometimes I think we overanalyse the hell out of running. Pretty sure the Bill Rodgers/ Steve Prefontaines/ Eamon Coughlins of the world were't spending hours handwringing over percentage of planned marathon pace and the like…

T runner · 06-02-2014 3:54pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

Certainly one theory. He has run 1:57 for 800m in the past though, so he doesn't lack speed. It's a bit of a head scratcher. There could definitely be a cultural element to it. The Japanese have been known for unorthodox methods of running and training for marathons.

OK. Maybe he's just used to this session and has progressed it as far, or damn near, as it will go. It is in line with the peak session (95% MP for 2:25) that Canova suggests for this runners ability to develop his peak resistance.
Would you know his half time by any chance? I think getting your MP as close to 95% of HMP as possible, is an indication of good marathon training.

Edit: I also remember hearing of Japanese of them doing 6 hr hard mountain hikes in the earliest phase. Presumable this was to improve efficiency at fat burning, as well as gaining some toughness. They weren't unused to putting on nearly a stone weight in the off -season either apparrently.

Japanese runners seem to be consistently strong in the last 10k and consistently tough.

drquirky wrote: »

Lots of ways to skin a cat! Sometimes I think we overanalyse the hell out of running. Pretty sure the Bill Rodgers/ Steve Prefontaines/ Eamon Coughlins of the world were't spending hours handwringing over percentage of planned marathon pace and the like…

But they didn't have Woodie pecking at their schedule!

Seriously you're probably right. But at World record--world championship gold level, you can be sure someone was handwringing over their schedules!

ecoli · 06-02-2014 4:01pm

Mod: little late with this so apologies but guys, keep things civil, there are interesting points being made so please keep the personal abuse out of it (goes for everyone)

bangkok · 06-02-2014 4:03pm

good luck

T runner · 06-02-2014 4:07pm

Wednesday: Lunch 5.5k inc. 8 x 80-100m uphill accelerations.

Concentrated on an even acceleration. Controlled and relaxed.

PM: 18k inc. 15-16 @ effort

No watch or HRM. Legs a bit heavy from weekly mileage and Lunchtime Strides. Will try and be fresher for Saturdays effort.

Into the wind. Nothing special but I tried to make sure I kept it controlled and the cadence up till the end. Never allowed the effort to go near "hanging on" at
the end. Glad to have it done. Getting good work in as the evenings start to brighten is a positive feeling.

Thursday AM: 12.5 easy.

Lower legs a little stiff. Did some strides at slower than M pace after 20 mins to try and clear stiffness for the recovery paced run. These calm mornings in between the stormy weather are lovely to run in.

Chivito550 · 06-02-2014 10:57pm

T runner wrote: »

OK. Maybe he's just used to this session and has progressed it as far, or damn near, as it will go. It is in line with the peak session (95% MP for 2:25) that Canova suggests for this runners ability to develop his peak resistance.
Would you know his half time by any chance? I think getting your MP as close to 95% of HMP as possible, is an indication of good marathon training.

He ran mid to high 69 about 5 weeks before the marathon.

T runner · 07-02-2014 11:02am

Chivito550 wrote: »

He ran mid to high 69 about 5 weeks before the marathon.

That puts his M pace within 5% of HM pace. A lot of unknown variables still but assuming he was happy with his HM time (it was averaging close to his LT) and even given that he might be good for another minute or so off a target HM, then not surprising he was happy with 2:26. Getting your AT pace to 5% of LT is a target for the very elite (apparently).

Some of the very fast HM guys that we see getting blown off the road after 30k have clearly not succeeded in this.
Their ratio is more like 8-9%, they are burning juice too fast and start to splutter helplessly with fuel tank problems somewhere after 30k, as their inferiors in the HM keep the pace up in their slightly more economical engines.

T runner · 07-02-2014 4:17pm

Thursday PM: 12.5 Easy home.

Friday AM: 12.5k easy work

Beautiful morning again. Legs a little stiff this AM, but a few slight strides /surges after 20 mins freed my range of motion at that pace and I could enjoy the brilliant morning sun on Sandymount beach in easy comfort.

Controlled is the name of the game for these two big weeks. Effort run tomorrow, and a long run Sunday. Tomorrow will be by feel again. It makes sense while breaking ground in these weeks, by feel will keep it sustainable in the wider context of the week. I wont even take a watch this time, as knowing that the pace can be ascertained later might cause me to push against previous times. I don't want that. I just want to complete a good effort session in the context of week 1 of 2 high mileage weeks.

Sunday's long-un: will probably try Phoenix park for a change. Have to leave enough for the remaining big week but will run it a step or two faster than easy. And then a nice recovery week to look forward to after! Maybe a Hadd test to gauge progress and the 200/200 session for a little leg speed.

National masters XC that weekend and I should be rearing for an outing then. I expect a significant improvement from Dublin masters but will be interested to see how much.

I might look at target races again. Im going to keep improving my base as long as I can. The National road 10k in April can't be a target, although ill run it. The National HM in early August can. But maybe a HM on the way into my Aerobic power (5k-HM) training in the summer might help with focus. The added stimulus of a big measurable improvement would no doubt help training for the August target HM.

T runner · 10-02-2014 1:23pm

Friday: 12.5 k easy home

Felt something on my lower calf (soleus) after about 5-6k. Had planned on 10 x 100m strides but left it. Ran easy. No pain, just a feeling.

Saturday: 20k easy

Plan was for an effort sessions here. I had forgotton about the feeling in my calf but I became aware of it when I tried to pick the pace up. Backed off and completed the 20k in pretty miserable weather conditions. I definitely shouldn't have ran the full 20k, if I turned when I felt it after 5k I would have reduced the run to 10k. Anyway, I was able to run freely enough at a slow pace (5 min kms or slower).

When i got home my head cleared a bit and I considered what to do. Ive had slight strains twice before in my upper calf and 4 days usually completely cured the symptoms. This is just a feeling, but I'm taking no chances. 4 days off running, (until Thursday). Tommorrow ill cycle in to work, maybe a swim on Wednesday and ill run on Thursday.

I think I know the cause. I had bought a couple of new pairs of runners. (Puma Faas and Nike Racers). The Puma Faas were new to me. I liked them. Lightweight, firm sole but just right: it forced you to run properly at all paces. They had a slightly lower heel to toe drop than im used to, but only slightly. I normally rotate my runners very well, but I didn't last week. It just went out of my head.
So the combination of a high mileage week, and a newer shoe forcing my calf to stretch a little more with each stride for easy runs, resulted in the "feeling".
Its a thin line, but a mistake none the less.

Hopefully that's it and ill be back in business in a few days. Better to nip it in the bud though. Fingers crossed.

woodchopper · 10-02-2014 10:35pm

T runner wrote: »

Friday: 12.5 k easy home

Felt something on my lower calf (soleus) after about 5-6k. Had planned on 10 x 100m strides but left it. Ran easy. No pain, just a feeling.

Hopefully that's it and ill be back in business in a few days. Better to nip it in the bud though. Fingers crossed.

Get that checked out. Dull aches Im afraid tend to lead to stress factures.

All the best,
Woodchopper

T runner · 11-02-2014 12:18pm

woodchopper wrote: »

Get that checked out. Dull aches Im afraid tend to lead to stress factures.

All the best,
Woodchopper

Possibly: but its at the back of the lower leg, and wasn't a dull ache, felt like it was on muscle, on my soleus. Not running until Thursday. If its still there, ill check it at that stage.

T runner · 13-02-2014 6:10pm

Absolutely no exercise for 4 days. 7k very easy today. Uneasy feeling after it. Felt many niggles after the layoff, one on the left leg where I may have been running into to compensate last Saturday. At stages in the easy run I did feel my right leg again....maybe Achilles...
Ill jog lightly again tomorrow. Away for weekend so it will be physio next week. A good deal of cross training looms I fear. I have a good deal of aerobic fitness built up, so if I have a layoff I have to adopt a maintenance cross training plan....as specific to running as I can

PaulieC · 14-02-2014 1:44pm

bad luck on the injury, hope it mends soon.

On the Garmin, if you haven't got one yet, SweatShop are doing a 210 for 89 sterlings as part of their "Private Member" sales - http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/private-sale/login. All you need to be a private member is to register

.

T runner · 17-02-2014 4:57pm

Thanks. Ill check that out.

Ran 3k on Saturday. Same story but leg got sorer quicker. Did nothing all week. Physio this evening and will know more. Cross training at least will star with a vengeance tomorrow i hope.

Re-assesing, i was fairly comfortable on the 160 km a week in multiple runs. Fingers crossed i get back soon. But i think ill keep the mileage there (after i build up to it again) , and add the quality. I can up it a little before the marathon, hopefully without any injury worries.

Stretchinga nd the strenght/corwe work needs to be upped. Im 41 now, i wont get away without it obviously any more.

But exercise will start again tomorrow and hopefully i have a short outage!

Krusty_Clown · 17-02-2014 6:19pm

Hope it's nothing serious and clears up soon. I guess it's not looking good for the masters XC on Sunday?

T runner · 17-02-2014 10:47pm

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hope it's nothing serious and clears up soon. I guess it's not looking good for the masters XC on Sunday?

Good news. Its only a bit of tightness. I was lucky to get away with almost zero stretching for so long. Have go ahead to go back running in a few days (2 days

). Treatment: stretch and foam rolling. Anyone know where to get a bog standard one? I tried one of the big Tescos but no joy.

Ill see how Im fixed for sunday. But if its OKish ill probably run, although at this stage id prefer to just use the few days to ease back into it.

Stazza · 17-02-2014 11:10pm

Great news T! Us old fellas need to watch our legs. Careful not to overdo it, which reminds me - must do the same.

ecoli · 17-02-2014 11:30pm

T runner wrote: »

Treatment: stretch and foam rolling. Anyone know where to get a bog standard one? I tried one of the big Tescos but no joy.

Honestly the soft core ones might be cheaper short term but lose there shape very easy. Elveries have there own brand of the Grid for about 30e which is 1/2 price compared to the Grid and in terms of quality would be pretty much the same and a worth while investment

Either that or the DIY job of a slip of Wavin pipe if you can get your hands on it

PaulieC · 18-02-2014 9:19am

Physio needs in Irishtown do them, from about 18 quid iirc

dna_leri · 18-02-2014 9:44am

T runner wrote: »

Good news. Its only a bit of tightness. I was lucky to get away with almost zero stretching for so long. Have go ahead to go back running in a few days (2 days ). Treatment: stretch and foam rolling. Anyone know where to get a bog standard one? I tried one of the big Tescos but no joy.

Ill see how Im fixed for sunday. But if its OKish ill probably run, although at this stage id prefer to just use the few days to ease back into it.

Good to hear the prognosis is positive.
Take care not to change that by racing - keep the eye on the real goal.

Speedy Gonzales or Slowpoke Rodriguez?

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