DART+ (DART Expansion)

L1011 · 20-01-2018 12:51am

Balbriggan is an utter waste of money. Zero benefit realistically unless it's being used as a cloak to expand the rolling stock levels

Carawaystick · 21-01-2018 7:40pm

Darts are much inferior to the 29k on the Balkbriggan line, no overhead racks or toilets for the post pub trips

bk · 22-01-2018 11:16am

I wonder though if it would go hand in hand with making Howth a shuttle service and a significant increase in frequency on both the Balbriggan line and Howth branch?

BTW Balbriggan is within 35 to 40 minutes of the city. That would normally be a commuter type service and not need toilets or racks. After all Bray is 40 minutes and Greystones 50 minutes.

lucernarian · 25-01-2018 5:04pm

bk wrote: »

I wonder though if it would go hand in hand with making Howth a shuttle service and a significant increase in frequency on both the Balbriggan line and Howth branch?

BTW Balbriggan is within 35 to 40 minutes of the city. That would normally be a commuter type service and not need toilets or racks. After all Bray is 40 minutes and Greystones 50 minutes.

Some newer trains were introduced on Sprinter routes by NS in the Netherlands, for suburban Amsterdam services as an example. From what I hear, they're not very popular owing to their lack of toilet facilities. The travelling time would be similar to Balbriggan for instance.

But even those have racks, it's something that is quite useful for people carrying coats and bags on all except extremely brief journeys, and even then racks are an enhancement with no capacity consequences.

LeinsterDub · 25-01-2018 5:17pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Some newer trains were introduced on Sprinter routes by NS in the Netherlands, for suburban Amsterdam services as an example. From what I hear, they're not very popular owing to their lack of toilet facilities. The travelling time would be similar to Balbriggan for instance.

But even those have racks, it's something that is quite useful for people carrying coats and bags on all except extremely brief journeys, and even then racks are an enhancement with no capacity consequences.

We don't have toilets on Dublin Bus and an hour would be the average journey time.

bk · 25-01-2018 5:24pm

lucernarian wrote: »

Some newer trains were introduced on Sprinter routes by NS in the Netherlands, for suburban Amsterdam services as an example. From what I hear, they're not very popular owing to their lack of toilet facilities. The travelling time would be similar to Balbriggan for instance.

Sure, if you ask people if they want a toilet or not, they will always say yes.

But of course it is never that simple, that toilet can take up the space of ten extra passengers and that can be the difference between you being left behind on the platform.

Ironically, BE seems to think it is fine to have no toilet on a 4 hour coach journey to Cork :eek: And that was the norm on all intercity coach journeys until just 10 years ago.

No one seems too bothered not having a toilet on the DART to Bray/Greystones and that is about the same or longer. I think journey items up to 1.5 to 2 hours without a toilet is fine.

BTW I've been on those trains in the Netherlands and I've seen those toilets, shudder, I'd rather wait *

* That was about 10 years ago, might have improved since.

lucernarian wrote: »

But even those have racks, it's something that is quite useful for people carrying coats and bags on all except extremely brief journeys, and even then racks are an enhancement with no capacity consequences.

Fair enough, though I'd expect if they are like the DARTs, then it will have less seating and more standing space, thus no room for racks over the standing areas.

BTW These new trains don't have to look like DARTs just because they are electric. They could well be speced more similar to commuter trains with racks and toilets. We will just have to wait and see.

lucernarian · 25-01-2018 6:04pm

I'm not telling anyone how they should feel on toilets

But I know people who will use transport specifically for comforts like toilets, and this often meant taking trips by car or by train back when buses had no toilet facilities except for the 15 mins in Borris or Urlingford.

It's also strongly worth noting that Bray and Greystones are served by intercity and sometimes diesel commuter trains with toilets. So I don't think the two towns are comparable with a hypothetical DART service to Balbriggan.

bk · 25-01-2018 6:40pm

lucernarian wrote: »

It's also strongly worth noting that Bray and Greystones are served by intercity and sometimes diesel commuter trains with toilets. So I don't think the two towns are comparable with a hypothetical DART service to Balbriggan.

And you could equally have trains to Dundalk, etc. stop at Balbriggan if you really wanted too.

LXFlyer · 25-01-2018 6:59pm

The question remains as to how stations from Malahide to Balbriggan will be served.

If they’re to be served by extending stopping DARTs that’s going to be a significant disprovement in service in terms of journey times. That will go down like a lead balloon.

lucernarian · 25-01-2018 7:06pm

@Bk

Just to emphasise how toilet availability is regarded by NS commuters, there are links here (in Dutch) that give an extent of the issue, and this problem as been discussed in the Dutch parliament also. The press releases involving the latest series of trains strongly emphasise the toilets aspect.

https://www.rover.nl/op-reis/binnenland/toegankelijkheid/treinen-met-toiletten

https://www.businessinsider.nl/zo-zien-de-nieuwe-ns-sprinters-er-van-binnen-uit-met-stopcontact-en-wc/
(one of the biggest complaints about the old Sprinters was the lack of toilets)

http://www.treinreiziger.nl/petitie-voor-wc-in-nieuwe-sprinters/
(a petition to have toilets provided when the 2nd to most recent generation of commuter trains was releasted)

So because you found some filthy toilets on the trains, you think they shouldn't be provided for commuter services in general?

Why would we repeat the mistakes that other countries have made in this regard either?

As for using commuter trains, how much room is there realistically for commuter services to still stop at some stations on the way to Balbriggan while also avoiding a total degradation of travelling times? There's no way to see or predict how exactly services will be provisioned afterwards.

I guess the same issue applies to Maynooth (which still should be the priority for electrification) but at least the Intercity trains stop there. How long is a trip from Tara St. to Louisa Bridge under a hypothetical DART timetable, plus potential new station near Ashtown?

marno21 · 25-01-2018 8:28pm

This is my guess.

When the Capital Plan was being assembled in 2015, there was an option to include a DART Expansion to either Balbriggan or Maynooth.

Regardless of the many different attibutes of both, there was only one factor looked at: cost.

Maynooth has a million times more benefits but it will cost more so Balbriggan was chosen instead.

bk · 25-01-2018 8:42pm

lucernarian, it is rather ironic that we are having this argument, since I long argued that intercity coaches should have toilets. If you look on the C&T forum you will find many posts where I argued this with BE fans who swore blue that it wasn't needed. So I do get where you are coming from.

However I do think you can talk the need a little too far. I'd argue up to two hours on a bus/train without a toilet is fine. Maybe 1h 30 mins if you really want. But just 40 minutes! sorry no, that is just getting silly.

Loads of Public Transport around Ireland operates up to one hour without toilets. Most Dublin Bus routes, nearly all BE routes and most equivocally DART to Bray/Greystones.

As to your point about commuter trains stopping at stations before Balbriggan. You also know perfectly well that commuter trains don't stop at every station before Bray either. For instance Tara to Shankill is 36 minutes and has no service at all with a toilet and yet people there somehow survive.

Having said that, we actually don't know how these trains will be speced, they may well be speced to have toilets. I kind of assume that these tri-mode trains will actually be the same trains that will operate beyond Balbriggan to Dundalk, etc. and as such will be specced with toilets as more commuter type trains. Once Balbriggan is electrified I suspect it will see a mixture of both full DART's and commuter style toilet equipped tri-mode trains.

In the end I think most people in Balbriggan will be delighted to trade toilets for faster, more frequent and reliable DART service.

lucernarian · 26-01-2018 9:56am

I brought up Bray and Greystones as examples of intercity train stations where DART is not the only option. I waved off the others as being closer to city centre. Shankill is indeed further out but I don't think it ever had a service with provided WCs in modern history. Still, 36 mins is much better than 45 mins or more.

Users of Dublin Bus who are using it are presumably happy to use the bus without those facilities in the first place. Likewise with BÉ. Most people have access to a car or a close relation or friend with a car and I've seen it happen that people opt for a car instead of bus just for toilet use on the way.

In the end I think most people in Balbriggan will be delighted to trade toilets for faster, more frequent and reliable DART service.

This is only speculation and opinion, uncited at that. I've demonstrated and sourced the anger and unhappiness over similar decisions on similar commuter routes in the Netherlands, and unless there's something fundamentally different about Dutch bladders when making 40 minute commutes, the example is quite relevant.

Bad decisions on passenger facilities and by Irish Rail-for-our-convenience will disproportionately affect the most vulnerable travellers with medical conditions that require convenient access to toilets and indeed for younger kids and the likes. There's no reason to mess the decision up now for a very small proportion of the train's capacity.

Btw, those new "flirt" trains used by NS incorporate toilets and they highlighted that as a major benefit of the new Stadler-built sets, and the soon to be built CAF ones. Their website, I quote, says "Intercity’s are equipped with toilets (increasingly wheelchair-accessible). The same applies to most Sprinters, and those Sprinters that are not yet equipped with toilets will have them installed in the near future."

strassenwo!f · 26-01-2018 10:44am

The aims of this DART Underground project are, as I understand it, to relieve the bottleneck at Connolly (though we still have to see how much that is a factor as the throughput across the loopline increases), to increase overall passenger numbers on the DART, and to integrate all (or most) public transport in the Dublin area.

This is a fine idea, but the problem of utilisation of the enormous capacity of this tunnel from pretty much day one is still a conundrum. East-West transport within the city is very important, but it may not be enough to get this project over the line.

Assuming that all the stated aims (in my first paragraph) are achieved with the construction of the proposed tunnel, I think there is merit in looking at building a rail route between, say, Clonsilla, and the Hazelhatch line.

Such a route was approximetely proposed for the now-defunct metrowest proposal: a rail corridor running basically perpendicular to the two main lines into the city from/to the west.

I think the metrowest thing was a crazy idea at this stage of Dublin's development, but it certainly wouldn't be so if Dublin already had a properly functioning rail transport system into and out of the city.

A proper link between the Maynooth and Hazelhatch lines, in the west of the city, could (i) help to utilise the tunnel properly, and (ii) fulfil some of the useful functions of the earlier metrowest proposal.

Broadly, (electrified) trains from the west approaching the city from the west...

Not trundling along a route via Drumcondra and, eventually, approaching the city from the east. ???

If all this happened, the tunnel would be better utilised and some of the function of the metrowest could be achieved. While electrification of the inner parts of that 'Maynooth' route would still be desirable, they probably wouldn't be necessary, as they could be served by Arrow routes, or whatever is to come.

loyatemu · 26-01-2018 10:51am

I think the Dart should have luggage racks over the seats - the space is there, and largely wasted. It's not like the Tube where the carriages are much lower. People do have bags and they take up space on the ground and people trip over them etc. Obviously you don't need ground-level suitcase racks like on the ICs.

bk · 26-01-2018 6:09pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I brought up Bray and Greystones as examples of intercity train stations where DART is not the only option. I waved off the others as being closer to city centre. Shankill is indeed further out but I don't think it ever had a service with provided WCs in modern history. Still, 36 mins is much better than 45 mins or more.

Balbriggan is currently 41 minutes from Tara St., Shankill is 36 minutes.

With the Balbriggan line getting electrified and due to faster acceleration, the journey time on this line will likely drop to a comparable 35 minutes.

Feck, I walk to work every day, it takes 35 minutes!

lucernarian wrote: »

This is only speculation and opinion, uncited at that. I've demonstrated and sourced the anger and unhappiness over similar decisions on similar commuter routes in the Netherlands, and unless there's something fundamentally different about Dutch bladders when making 40 minute commutes, the example is quite relevant.

Maybe all that water they are surrounded by makes them have a week bladder

lucernarian wrote: »

Btw, those new "flirt" trains used by NS incorporate toilets and they highlighted that as a major benefit of the new Stadler-built sets, and the soon to be built CAF ones. Their website, I quote, says "Intercity’s are equipped with toilets (increasingly wheelchair-accessible). The same applies to most Sprinters, and those Sprinters that are not yet equipped with toilets will have them installed in the near future."

Tell me this. Does Amsterdams Metros have toilets? Because that is basically what we are talking about here, with Balbriggan and DART.

I see that the following are the journey times for the Amsterdam Metro:
Westwijk to Centraal: 39 min

Seems to be well in line with what Balbriggan will have.

lucernarian · 27-01-2018 1:59pm

@bk I don't see why you're pushing the point so strongly, especially after I've given convincing evidence of the impact and reaction to replacing WC servics with trains that don't have them. I don't personally need toilets on trains more than anyone else but I have gratefully used them. The issue impacts directly on those who truly need the facilities.

This thread isn't about metro services, Dublin Bus or indeed intercity trains. This is about commuter rail and how it's replaced or augmented by DART.

All the other examples are services which never had toilets, or no expectation of toilets. It's quite different to remove facilities that people have come to depend on and may have chosen to live somewhere based on that train service. All for the sake of marginal capacity benefits? You could remove more seating to get the same outcome.

Idbatterim · 27-01-2018 2:32pm

lads just a thought, you start linking lines like metro north to the northern line and the green line to bray. Build dart underground, all of a sudden, the amount of trips on Dart grows massively, you could bring Dart to dublin airport etc. Given one of the big issues with DU we reckon, is IR. Could the tunnel not be built and when there is a ridership of a significant enough number, that international operators might be interested, tender out the running of DART?

lucernarian · 27-01-2018 4:28pm

I'd say there will be significant intransigence on the part of unions if that were even contemplated. By now they are aware they don't even need the public's support and can/will prepare for a prolonged strike the moment they hear about that.

It's still largely taken for granted that southbound DARTs sometimesleave Clontarf Road ahead of the timetable. Purely coincidental that it only happens when there's a driver change at the depot?

Idbatterim · 27-01-2018 4:36pm

lucernarian wrote: »

I'd say there will be significant intransigence on the part of unions if that were even contemplated. By now they are aware they don't even need the public's support and can/will prepare for a prolonged strike the moment they hear about that.

It's still largely taken for granted that southbound DARTs sometimesleave Clontarf Road ahead of the timetable. Purely coincidental that it only happens when there's a driver change at the depot?

of course the unions will be against it, they couldnt care less for their customers and I couldnt care less for them with their attitude...

LeinsterDub · 27-01-2018 5:48pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

of course the unions will be against it, they couldnt care less for their customers and I couldnt care less for them with their attitude...

You'd need a Network Rail like company to own and maintain the track

L1011 · 27-01-2018 10:53pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You'd need a Network Rail like company to own and maintain the track

Legally Irish Rail already have such a split between infrastructure and operations - as required by EU law.

Doesn't seem to have any impact in reality.

bk · 29-01-2018 5:00pm

lucernarian wrote: »

@bk I don't see why you're pushing the point so strongly, especially after I've given convincing evidence of the impact and reaction to replacing WC servics with trains that don't have them. I don't personally need toilets on trains more than anyone else but I have gratefully used them. The issue impacts directly on those who truly need the facilities.

I'm pushing the point because in Ireland we culturally have too much of an attitude that you can't change anything if it slightly discommodes even a small group of people, despite the change being a great benefit to the majority of people.

I see it all the time on these forums, in our political system and our planning and I believe it is very damaging to our development as a country and society.

Whether it is to kick a few taxis out of College Green, annoy a few residents in Parliament Street with extra buses or piss off car park owners, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

We really have to start thinking about the bigger picture and the needs of the many over the needs of the few.

Also I think I've very conclusively shown that even in the Netherlands people regularly take trains (Metro in Amsterdam) for the same lengths of time without toilets.

So it is really no big deal and will be a major improvement overall for the people of Balbriggan and I've no doubt highly welcomed by most.

Mal_83 · 30-01-2018 7:54pm

lucernarian wrote: »

@bk I don't see why you're pushing the point so strongly, especially after I've given convincing evidence of the impact and reaction to replacing WC servics with trains that don't have them. I don't personally need toilets on trains more than anyone else but I have gratefully used them. The issue impacts directly on those who truly need the facilities.

This thread isn't about metro services, Dublin Bus or indeed intercity trains. This is about commuter rail and how it's replaced or augmented by DART.

All the other examples are services which never had toilets, or no expectation of toilets. It's quite different to remove facilities that people have come to depend on and may have chosen to live somewhere based on that train service. All for the sake of marginal capacity benefits? You could remove more seating to get the same outcome.

M is potty for all things Dutch. Nice and flat I guess

I don't get this obsession with comparing transport links here to Dutch. Inject some imagination into it. There are other cities more comparable for Dublin and her surrounding counties.

bk · 30-01-2018 8:05pm

Mal_83 wrote: »

I don't get this obsession with comparing transport links here to Dutch. Inject some imagination into it. There are other cities more comparable for Dublin and her surrounding counties.

In fairness to lucernarian, Amsterdam is probably one of the most equivalent cities to Dublin. Almost exactly the same population size, similar population density, etc. Makes it a very good comparison overall. Way better then London which many compare us to.

Netherlands overall though is a poor comparison, 17 million people in a country half the size of Ireland, with lots of rail through traffic, makes it a poor comparison for the whole of Ireland.

Mal_83 · 30-01-2018 8:17pm

I agree - Amsterdam is indeed much better than London.

AngryLips · 31-01-2018 11:36am

bk wrote: »

In fairness to lucernarian, Amsterdam is probably one of the most equivalent cities to Dublin. Almost exactly the same population size, similar population density, etc.

It's easy, of course, to ignore the fact that the Neatherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, situated in one of the most densely populated regions of the continent.

MJohnston · 31-01-2018 11:52am

AngryLips wrote: »

It's easy, of course, to ignore the fact that the Neatherlands is one of the most densely populated countries in Europe, situated in one of the most densely populated regions of the continent.

It's easy, of course, to remove an entire paragraph from the post you're quoting where it says exactly that.

marno21 · 02-02-2018 1:18am

Leo Varadkar dodged two questions on DART Underground during Leaders Questions today by saying it and other Dublin projects were "in the mix".

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2018-01-31a.137

MaccaTacca · 02-02-2018 1:37am

bk wrote: »

I wonder though if it would go hand in hand with making Howth a shuttle service and a significant increase in frequency on both the Balbriggan line and Howth branch?

BTW Balbriggan is within 35 to 40 minutes of the city. That would normally be a commuter type service and not need toilets or racks. After all Bray is 40 minutes and Greystones 50 minutes.

Bray is definitely a shorter journey to the city center than Balbriggan.

Bray to Tara Dart time ranges from 38-40 mins, while the intercity train from Bray to Tara could have you in Tara in around 30-32 mins.

Balbriggan is served by a faster train and stops twice compared to the 15 odd stops from Bray to city center.

Is there any need to electrify between malahide and Balbriggan considering that there’s a much lower population density on this part of the line?

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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