Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Priest objecting to marriage?

  • 26-02-2008 10:26am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭


    Hi,

    My Fiancee and I are getting married (hopefully) in July. However after meeting with the priest last week to complete our pre-nuptial enquiry form, which was a bit of an ordeal, he seems to have reservations about marrying us.

    A section on the form asks if you promise to raise your children unders god's blah blah blah, anyway...I of course said 'yes no problem' (hoping to get it over and done with quickly), My Fiancee on the other hand said 'I dont plan on having children.' Well.....the priest couldn't believe it. He sat us both down for a half an hour talking about it....And then asks ...'Why are you getting married if you dont want kids'? ..What kind of question is that?

    After a lenghty discussion he basically had to get advice on the situation as he's never come across it before...and he calls me last night and wants to meet us with what sounded like bad news.....

    This post is long enough already so....Is he or can they really not marry you if children are not being considered?


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    Thats something I can't understand about the catholic church. Marriage from their point of view is supposed to be for the procreation of children. Yet I have seen plenty of examples of people being married in a church who are - to put it kindly - well past the age of having children. So how come they can get married and not yourselves?
    Why doesn't fiancee just say she's changed her mind? Its only a little lie as minds can always be changed in the future.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Well if you are not practicing catholics and are not going to have kids and are going to be using contraception then don't have a chruch wedding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    we were born and raised as catholics, lets face it not many people can say they are 'practising' catholics. We were baptised, and confirmed, why shouldn't we have a church wedding?

    Marriage is about the union of two people and those two people sharing their lives together. Wheter or not we wish to have children shouldn't be an issue.

    What if we were unable to have kids? Does that mean you cant get married?

    Im sure were not the only couple in the catholic world who for whatever reason does not want to have children. That decision does not affect our faith or our beliefs


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,321 ✭✭✭death1234567


    Catholic preist in spouting nonsense shocker! Surely not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The priest himself can of course refuse to marry you, that's his personal choice. As far as I know, the parish/church can also refuse to allow you to get married there.

    You'll find that the attitude of priests and parishes covers a broad spectrum of beliefs. Some priests will marry anyone without question and other priests won't marry someone if they haven't seen them in mass in the last 10 years.

    The bible and catholic doctrine puts a lot of emphasis on there being a "Catholic duty" to impregnate one's wife and to raise many children, as Catholic. If you find a priest who strongly believes in this piece of doctrine (they'll be particularly old and fussy - the "No meat on Friday" types), they may say that they're morally opposed to marrying two people who do not wish to have children.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    Hi,

    My Fiancee on the other hand said 'I dont plan on having children.' Well.....the priest couldn't believe it. He sat us both down for a half an hour talking about it....And then asks ...'Why are you getting married if you dont want kids'? ..What kind of question is that?

    Hello, if you're planning on using contraception you'd be better off not getting married within the Church. As you probably know contraception is regarded as a grave/mortal sin by the Church. So if you can't live by the rules, why get married in a Catholic Church (assuming that you plan to use contraception).

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    so the issue really is the use of contraception and not the bringing children into the world part.


    I wonder if we had a 'change of heart' tonight and said ok, we've thought about it and we will eventuallly have children. Would the priest buy that?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Religious beliefs aside , what buissness is it of the priest weather you do or do not have children ? I thought the days of priests getting into the marrige bed were gone ,seemingly not :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭BendiBus


    latchyco wrote: »
    Religious beliefs aside...

    ehm, the OP is trying to arrange a religious ceremony. You can't put religious beliefs aside!

    If you don't agree with the rules of the Catholic religion then it's unfair to expect a Catholic marriage ceremony.
    I thought the days of priests getting into the marrige bed were gone ,seemingly not

    The priest won't stop you from living your own life the way you choose, but it's unfair to expect their support either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    BendiBus wrote: »
    ehm, the OP is trying to arrange a religious ceremony. You can't put religious beliefs aside!

    If you don't agree with the rules of the Catholic religion then it's unfair to expect a Catholic marriage ceremony.

    Fair enough and i respect anybodys religion ,but in my case i would .


    The priest won't stop you from living your own life the way you choose, but it's unfair to expect their support either.

    True, think they he would be the last person i would look for support of anyway thanks .


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Well if you are not practicing catholics and are not going to have kids and are going to be using contraception then don't have a chruch wedding.

    I don't think this is a reasonable comment.

    Jesus said that marriage was for a man and a woman to come together under God and become one. Nothing was mentioned about procreating.
    Mark 9:7-9 wrote:
    "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined with his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together let no one separate.

    I'd say go to another Church if you are serious about being married under God. (such as Church of Ireland etc). I don't see why people can't be married without the intention of having children.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    What if we were unable to have kids? Does that mean you cant get married?

    I know a couple where one of them could not have kids and the first priest they went to refused to marry them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    I'm not looking forward to meeting him tonight...my fiancee wont be impressed either, 5 months before the big day...


    I'l let ye know how we get on, I suppose if he wont buy the change of heart we've had over night, we'l speak to the priest who is actually marrying us and get his view and take it from there..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'd say go to another Church if you are serious about being married under God. (such as Church of Ireland etc). I don't see why people can't be married without the intention of having children.

    The Catholic Church teaches that children are a blessing from God, and that the purpose of marriage to to form a union that will facilitate this blessing if God so wishes. God may decide to not grant a married couple a child, but it is not the place of a married couple to decide to refuse God's blessing of a child. Getting married demonstrates to God that you are ready to receive this blessing, if he so wishes.

    Its one of the reasons they object to homosexual marriage so much, and to contraception.


  • Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭Bduffman


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Hello, if you're planning on using contraception you'd be better off not getting married within the Church. As you probably know contraception is regarded as a grave/mortal sin by the Church. So if you can't live by the rules, why get married in a Catholic Church (assuming that you plan to use contraception).

    I wonder how many church weddings there would be every year if this rule was strictly adhered to?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    Is he or can they really not marry you if children are not being considered?
    The catholic church requires people who marry "in" it to attempt to have children, and it permits divorce in cases where children are not produced for whatever reason. If the priest has good reason to believe that you're not going to have children then canon law states, I believe, that he can refuse to carry out the ceremony. I don't have references to hand, but I'm sure you can find them on the Vatican website without too much trouble.

    The reason that the church takes this harsh line is that, for its own survival, it requires parents who are committed to producing children who are exposed to the church from an early age, so that they in turn will do the same to their children -- it's a form of self-protection. If you're not going to do this, then the church has understandably little interest in the marriage as it gains nothing from it. As wicknight implies, the prohibitions on contraception and homosexuality exist for the same reason.

    Incidentally, this tradition does suggest quite strongly that the church's interest in marriage does not actually extend to providing the stable social institution within which two people can love each other, as you'd be inclined to think from their preaching on the topics of love and marriage.

    You may have more luck in other churches, while the state marriage civil marriage ceremony has no rules on this one way or the other. In the eyes of the state, whether you have kids is entirely up to you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    so the issue really is the use of contraception and not the bringing children into the world part.
    It's both issues. You might find this link useful:

    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9911frs.asp
    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    I wonder if we had a 'change of heart' tonight and said ok, we've thought about it and we will eventuallly have children. Would the priest buy that?
    That would depend on your sincerity.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Thanks for that link -- that fills out what I was mumbling about up above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    I think this is what really confuses me.
    Couple doesn't attend mass.
    The priest doesn't know them.
    They demand a Catholic church wedding.
    They get mad at the priest for not acquiescing to their desires.

    Hypocrisy to me. If you dont go to mass and are part of the church body how can you expect the priest to roll over and compromise his values for your convenience?

    (I dont agree with the reason for his stance, I'm just questioning yours?)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    robindch wrote: »
    The catholic church requires people who marry "in" it to attempt to have children, and it permits divorce in cases where children are not produced for whatever reason. If the priest has good reason to believe that you're not going to have children then canon law states, I believe, that he can refuse to carry out the ceremony. I don't have references to hand, but I'm sure you can find them on the Vatican website without too much trouble.

    The reason that the church takes this harsh line is that, for its own survival, it requires parents who are committed to producing children who are exposed to the church from an early age, so that they in turn will do the same to their children -- it's a form of self-protection. If you're not going to do this, then the church has understandably little interest in the marriage as it gains nothing from it. As wicknight implies, the prohibitions on contraception and homosexuality exist for the same reason.

    Incidentally, this tradition does suggest quite strongly that the church's interest in marriage does not actually extend to providing the stable social institution within which two people can love each other, as you'd be inclined to think from their preaching on the topics of love and marriage.

    You may have more luck in other churches, while the state marriage civil marriage ceremony has no rules on this one way or the other. In the eyes of the state, whether you have kids is entirely up to you.

    The 'conspiracy ' is on, prpogated by a large institution.

    C'mon robin you should be :o


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 109 ✭✭DO0GLE


    Tell him it depends on your circumstances.....finanicial, big mortgage etc, etc, that if the circumstances were right you would like to have children but its not suitable for you at this moment in time


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,900 ✭✭✭Quality


    a little ot, but had you and your fiance discussed the whole having, not having children thing before this meeting?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    The 'conspiracy ' is on, prpogated by a large institution.
    Not really a 'conspiracy' at all, as much of this is unintentional. It's just the way the religion has evolved, there's nothing mysterious or conspiratorial about it at all :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    "" I think this is what really confuses me.
    Couple doesn't attend mass.
    The priest doesn't know them.
    They demand a Catholic church wedding.
    They get mad at the priest for not acquiescing to their desires.

    Hypocrisy to me. If you dont go to mass and are part of the church body how can you expect the priest to roll over and compromise his values for your convenience?

    (I dont agree with the reason for his stance, I'm just questioning yours?)"""





    That argument doesnt stand up.

    The Majortiy of this country don't go to mass anymore. For a variety of reasons. Yet we have church weddings every single day. Just because you don't go to mass does not mean you're suddenly not catholic. We were all raised as catholics and therefor live our lives the christian way, which means Baptisim, communion, confirmation, regualr mass and confession (granted may not always happen) and then marriage and of course funeral.

    Its bad enough that some people (also catholic) are forced to marry in registry office's if one or both have been divorced as the church views such people as adulters. I mean what sort of Antiquated teachings are these, im sure this argument will pave the way for the much broader argument of are the teachings of the bible suited to a modern society?

    We've been baptised, and confirmed and I'm sure each and every one of us show our appreciation to God on some level in some shape or form so I don't think its too much to ask after 25 years of being a catholic (albeit not a mass going one) to ask now that we are allowed to marry under the eyes of god. We remain Christians, we never changed our religious beliefs, and im sure when the time comes my funeral will take place in a church also...So why will they allow everything else and not marriage.

    Im not asking for the priest or the religion to sacrifice its beliefs so we can have the 'wedding of our dreams' in a church, im asking for a little common sense approach in a society that is already losing touch with our religion why further ostricise the church by refusing to marry willing followers requesting a marriage under the eyes of god?


  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    Quality wrote: »
    a little ot, but had you and your fiance discussed the whole having, not having children thing before this meeting?

    Yes, of course. We've talked about it many times..


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭Call Me Jimmy


    What I want to know is - what is the origin of priests not being allowed to marry? Is it in the bible? Why is everyone else allowed to marry and that's ok with god, but priests are not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    That argument doesnt stand up.

    The Majortiy of this country don't go to mass anymore. For a variety of reasons. Yet we have church weddings every single day. Just because you don't go to mass does not mean you're suddenly not catholic. We were all raised as catholics and therefor live our lives the christian way, which means Baptisim, communion, confirmation, regualr mass and confession (granted may not always happen) and then marriage and of course funeral.

    Its bad enough that some people (also catholic) are forced to marry in registry office's if one or both have been divorced as the church views such people as adulters. I mean what sort of Antiquated teachings are these, im sure this argument will pave the way for the much broader argument of are the teachings of the bible suited to a modern society?

    We've been baptised, and confirmed and I'm sure each and every one of us show our appreciation to God on some level in some shape or form so I don't think its too much to ask after 25 years of being a catholic (albeit not a mass going one) to ask now that we are allowed to marry under the eyes of god. We remain Christians, we never changed our religious beliefs, and im sure when the time comes my funeral will take place in a church also...So why will they allow everything else and not marriage.

    Im not asking for the priest or the religion to sacrifice its beliefs so we can have the 'wedding of our dreams' in a church, im asking for a little common sense approach in a society that is already losing touch with our religion why further ostricise the church by refusing to marry willing followers requesting a marriage under the eyes of god?

    Why get married in a Catholic Church when you don't go to Mass and you probably do or plan to use contraception, both of which are mortal sins!

    Marriage would prevent the sin of fornication but that's not much good if you commit other mortal sins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 705 ✭✭✭CTU_Agent


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Why get married in a Catholic Church when you don't go to Mass and you probably do or plan to use contraception, both of which are mortal sins!

    Marriage would prevent the sin of fornication but that's not much good if you commit other mortal sins.

    Going by this logic...There are a lot of people in the Christian world commiting mortal sins everyday. Women across this country alone are consuming the contraceptive pill at higher rates than ever. As for Mass, who can honestly say in this day and age that they go to Mass every Sunday .....very few id imagine.

    Religion has lost its grip on our society and surely can no longer expect the respect of its parishioners or its commitment to regular mass.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    kelly1 wrote: »
    Why get married in a Catholic Church when you don't go to Mass and you probably do or plan to use contraception, both of which are mortal sins!

    Just curious actually. Where does it say in the Bible that if you do not go to Church that it is a sin. I'm a churchgoer myself on a regular basis, but I'm just wondering from a Biblical point of view.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    Going by this logic...There are a lot of people in the Christian world commiting mortal sins everyday. Women across this country alone are consuming the contraceptive pill at higher rates than ever.
    True, very few fully accept Church teachings on morality.
    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    As for Mass, who can honestly say in this day and age that they go to Mass every Sunday .....very few id imagine.
    I do.
    CTU_Agent wrote: »
    Religion has lost its grip on our society and surely can no longer expect the respect of its parishioners or its commitment to regular mass.
    You mean the Catholic Church? Why shouldn't people accept the precepts of the Church?


Advertisement