Being forced to take up unpaid internship on jobsbridge scheme

TomRooney · 18-01-2013 2:50pm #1

A friend of mine has been told by an individual in FAS in Parnell St that she must take up an unpaid internship on the jobsbridge scheme or else her social welfare payments may stop.

The reason given was apparently because she done a 33 week course in FAS which has so far failed to help her gain permanent employment and apparently it should have....despite the almost 500,000 people unemployed looking for work with zero economic growth over numerous years.

She has had sporadic work through agencies but nothing more than a few weeks here and there hence the reason she returned to FAS in an attempt to get onto a course that would compliment the one she finished But when she went to make an enquiry she was told "you already done a course and that should have got you work, you cant just keep doing courses" also she was told "You might have to do a jobsbridge internship or have your social welfare payments stopped"

Why the hell should anyone be forced into providing free labour for any company that is already turning a profit, without the guarantee of a job.
I understand the scheme helps some people but by and large the majority of people on these schemes are nothing more than free labour for profitable business which is basically government endorsed exploitation.

I have no issue if someone chooses to do such an intership of their own free will but being bullied into it and told you must provide free labour without any guarantee of a job or else your welfare payments will be stopped is just exploitation and bullying of the highest degree.

Before she done this course she had been working in Ireland full time for the previous 6 years so it's not like she is a sponger.

Is this even legal or was the FAS careers advisor talking nonsense?

Doom · 18-01-2013 2:55pm

But she is been paid (the dole +50Euro) so she is not working for free!

zenno · 18-01-2013 2:57pm

I was sure that the internship was completely voluntary. I never heard of anyone forced to do an internship ?. Correct me if i'm wrong.

TomRooney · 18-01-2013 3:00pm

Doom wrote: »

But she is been paid (the dole +50Euro) so she is not working for free!

You seem to have a problem with comprehension.

No, she is not being paid by the company getting free labour, she is getting an entitlement she worked for, she's not getting anything for free.
The €50 euro is another expense to the tax payer not the company getting free labour and would barely cover travelling expenses.

It is exploitation, nothing more.
It is also a form of bullying to threaten someone that their welfare payment will be cut if they dont work for free for private, profitable company.

Wicklowandy · 18-01-2013 3:01pm

I think she would wait and see what they offer.

If shes spent a period studying / unemployed a good internship inthe right company might let her gain valuable experience and perhaps a foot in the door at the company, or at similar companies. Its good on the cv.

I take the point that some internships are little more than a company looking for free labour, but there are channels to report the suspect ones and she can cross that bridge when she comes to it:)

zenno · 18-01-2013 3:05pm

Is this even legal or was the FAS careers advisor talking nonsense?

To be honest I think the social welfare decides on whether you can apply for jobsbridge/internship not fas, so unless the social welfare sends you a letter telling you you have to take an internship job then you don't have to do one. Fas cannot as far as i know force anyone to take a job or an internship.

TomRooney · 18-01-2013 3:06pm

That's fair enough Wicklowandy, but I have a serious issue with the threat of payments being stopped unless one goes on to a free labour scheme whether they like it or not.

If someone wants to volunteer to do an unpaid internship that's their own business, I would probably consider one myself if need be but I believe it is unacceptable to threaten people and force them to do one.

Wicklowandy · 18-01-2013 3:16pm

Fas and dept of social protection are one and the same at a lot of sites (treoir) have been rebranded.

Listen to everything that is said if interviewed, the social contract now signed by applicant at Treoir states that an applicant may lose entitlements if they refuse work or suitable training or internship so they probably can say that.

Tell her to play it by ear, but dont be anti internship. She might get more than she thinks from it.

They dont have training and internship places for everyone thats unemployed. She should wait and see what they offer. And keep looking for work, its hard got and mostly badly paid and short term (im earning approx 65% of other people here in the same job) but stick it out, it'll get better. Its not worth getting upset by an employee of treoir telling her what they're telling everyone now.

TomRooney · 18-01-2013 3:24pm

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Fas and dept of social protection are one and the same at a lot of sites (treoir) have been rebranded.

Listen to everything that is said if interviewed, the social contract now signed by applicant at Treoir states that an applicant may lose entitlements if they refuse work or suitable training or internship so they probably can say that.

Tell her to play it by ear, but dont be anti internship. She might get more than she thinks from it.

They dont have training and internship places for everyone thats unemployed. She should wait and see what they offer. And keep looking for work, its hard got and mostly badly paid and short term (im earning approx 65% of other people here in the same job) but stick it out, it'll get better. Its not worth getting upset by an employee of treoir telling her what they're telling everyone now.

Who decides if it is suitable?
I suppose I have a gripe with the whole scheme, it's a farce.
Most of these companies are just jumping on the bandwagon and would no doubt be offering paid positions if this ill thought out gombeen scheme had not been put in place.

Besides that, the threat of cutting someone of welfare payments if they dont take up a position where a company gets free labour is deplorable.
What if the company is not suitable? Or if it is clear from the outset that there is no possibility of employment after the internship.

This country is a shambolic mess, governed by a cartel of gombeens who have no realisation of the reality of life or the hardships facing people across this country. There schemes dont benefit the worker they benefit big business who use them to exploit vulnerable and desperate people.

It makes my blood boil.

Wicklowandy · 18-01-2013 3:34pm

I agree in part, but think what may be gained assuming that the internship is suitable for her existing newly gained qualification.

If you feel an internship as advertised is mickey mouse, report it, and if shes offered one that she feels is mickey mouse, report it.

But she should check has she signed the contract with treoir. If she has, all the complaining in the world wont change it.

Remember, they havent courses or internships for everyone, and being the one to shout loudest mighnt do her any favours.

Good cvs and plenty of legwork. Tell her to give up on the jobs websites, call companies, try to build a rapport with the same hr person and drop cvs in person to that employee. Its a lot more effective than the endless emailing. Personal touch has always been lucky for me.

Doom · 18-01-2013 3:48pm

TomRooney wrote: »

You seem to have a problem with comprehension.

No, she is not being paid by the company getting free labour, she is getting an entitlement she worked for, she's not getting anything for free.
The €50 euro is another expense to the tax payer not the company getting free labour and would barely cover travelling expenses.

It is exploitation, nothing more.
It is also a form of bullying to threaten someone that their welfare payment will be cut if they dont work for free for private, profitable company.

She didn't turn her nose up at Fas not paying extra to her for 33 weeks of training, why should she do it to a company offering more training + 50 euro more

TomRooney · 18-01-2013 3:56pm

Doom wrote: »

She didn't turn her nose up at Fas not paying extra her for 33 weeks of training, why should she do it to a company offering more training + 50 euro more

Confused....That's obvious.
Could it be that you're one of these exploitative employers taking advantage of free labour?

Doom · 18-01-2013 4:38pm

I don't own a company or in a position to hire, but If I was I would use this system to find a suitable candidate, I am very against exploitation, I was a union shop steward for about 8 yrs and did a lot to protect lads from this.....but I did see a lot of useless ****ers around too who should have been ****ed out on their holes.

Wicklowandy · 18-01-2013 5:54pm

I agree with that, but i hope strong safeguards are in place to stop the exploitation of workers through this scheme.

Some internships look great, and would be of great benefit to some. On the other hand i saw a sign today in a local shop for a local hotel looking for kitchen staff for a job bridge scheme. Duties: washing, cleaning and prep work.

The acceptance of employers on to the scheme does not seem to be well vetted on the evidence of seeing a sign like the above. It just seems to provide cheap labour to the employer, while displacing some entry level jobs. This is hopefully the exception rather than the rule.

melekalikimaka · 18-01-2013 5:58pm

what sort of job is she looking for might i inquire?

zenno · 18-01-2013 6:03pm

Wicklowandy wrote: »

I agree with that, but i hope strong safeguards are in place to stop the exploitation of workers through this scheme.

Some internships look great, and would be of great benefit to some. On the other hand i saw a sign today in a local shop for a local hotel looking for kitchen staff for a job bridge scheme. Duties: washing, cleaning and prep work.

The acceptance of employers on to the scheme does not seem to be well vetted on the evidence of seeing a sign like the above. It just seems to provide cheap labour to the employer, while displacing some entry level jobs. This is hopefully the exception rather than the rule.

They force these jobs to released convicts in the U.S while on parole. It seems to be just a normal job here in Ireland

Wicklowandy · 18-01-2013 6:23pm

If that job in the kitchen was just that, a minimum wage job, there would be no shortage of takers, but it is exploitation any other way. Little is spent training someone for doing it, so if a candidate doesn't work out, sack them.

Its fair enough in some jobs to use the internship to weed out poor workers, but in a case like this, its not a fair use of the scheme.

Mrs OBumble · 18-01-2013 8:09pm

TomRooney wrote: »

....
I suppose I have a gripe with the whole scheme, it's a farce.
....
Besides that, the threat of cutting someone of welfare payments if they dont take up a position where a company gets free labour is deplorable.
...
Or if it is clear from the outset that there is no possibility of employment after the internship.

...
It makes my blood boil.

Your boiling blood and other thoughts about what should happen are of absolutely no use to the OP. Take it to Politics or your TD.

There is no expectation that a Jobridge internship will turn into paid employment. I think that'a dumb policy, but it's what applies, and there's no point giving advice that it "should" be different.

OP I would be expect that failure to accept a suitable paid job or intern-ship would affect a persons benefit. But as others have pointed out, there are a lot more job-seekers than there are internships, so it's unlikely that someone will be forced into one unless the Welfare staff have reason to believe that they are not genuinely job-seeking.

The best strategy is always to be 100% polite, co-operative and interested.

If your friend is looking to do something to improve her/her employabiliyt, then I would have thought an internship (getting real work experience and a reference in a real workplace) would be a lot better than yet another course. Especially since the last course clearly didn't make the difference for him /her.

TomRooney · 19-01-2013 4:36pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Your boiling blood and other thoughts about what should happen are of absolutely no use to the OP. Take it to Politics or your TD.

There is no expectation that a Jobridge internship will turn into paid employment. I think that'a dumb policy, but it's what applies, and there's no point giving advice that it "should" be different.

OP I would be expect that failure to accept a suitable paid job or intern-ship would affect a persons benefit. But as others have pointed out, there are a lot more job-seekers than there are internships, so it's unlikely that someone will be forced into one unless the Welfare staff have reason to believe that they are not genuinely job-seeking.

The best strategy is always to be 100% polite, co-operative and interested.

If your friend is looking to do something to improve her/her employabiliyt, then I would have thought an internship (getting real work experience and a reference in a real workplace) would be a lot better than yet another course. Especially since the last course clearly didn't make the difference for him /her.

I am the OP by the way.

The person in question has a Masters degree and has worked full time for the last 6 years but due to circumstances beyond her control she found herself out of work.
She then went on to do a 6 month course in Legal Secretary skills, ECDL, Microsoft expert exams, dictation etc.

After finishing this course 7 months ago she has got sporadic work but can't secure full time permanent employment. She has excellent references from an unpaid internship she already done when she finished the course and she has several other excellent references from the course instructor and other employers she has worked with short term, I fail to see how another unpaid internship would benefit her in any way as does she.
Not to mention that it was suggested in a threatening manner.

Because of all this she wanted to do a further course that would compliment the one she had finished and might give her an edge when it comes to getting hired but when she approached the FAS careers advisor she was told that she cant giver her any more courses and that she might not have a choice but to take up an internship or else risk having her welfare cut.

P.S. Of course there is some expectation that in internship should or could turn into a full time job!

Peppa Pig · 19-01-2013 4:59pm

TomRooney wrote: »

Besides that, the threat of cutting someone of welfare payments if they dont take up a position where a company gets free labour is deplorable.

Her entitlements are, presumably running out. If she does do this internship she will have some income coming in. Otherwise she can sit at home and do nothing for no income. Seems fair to me.

There's tens of thousands of people in this country would be glad to have such a chance.

You still haven't told us what the job she wants and the internship is - is she a solicitor being offered a kitchen porter job, or what.

TomRooney · 19-01-2013 5:03pm

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Her entitlements are, presumably running out. If she does do this internship she will have some income coming in. Otherwise she can sit at home and do nothing for no income. Seems fair to me.

There's tens of thousands of people in this country would be glad to have such a chance.

You still haven't told us what the job she wants and the internship is - is she a solicitor being offered a kitchen porter job, or what.

Her entitlements are not running out, oh and even if benefit ran out currently there is a job seekers allowance which is basically the same thing except it's not based on stamps.
She is trying to find work as a legal secretary, she hasn't been offered an internship yet.
It's quite sad that you think it is acceptable to force someone to work for a company at an expense to the tax payer.
It's fair enough if someone chooses this as I already said, but government agencies should not be forcing anyone to work for private companies or risk having welfare payments stopped.

Peppa Pig · 19-01-2013 5:17pm

TomRooney wrote: »

Her entitlements are not running out, oh and even if benefit ran out currently there is a job seekers allowance which is basically the same thing except it's not based on stamps.

Allowance is means tested, benefit isn't. If she is entitled to benefit after paying stamps, then it can't be cut for 15 months, if this is the case then Fás are incorrect.

TomRooney wrote: »

It's quite sad that you think it is acceptable to force someone to work for a company at an expense to the tax payer.

Don't know how you come to that conclusion, it's not a communist state we live in. She is not being forced to do anything :rolleyes:
If her benefit has run out but she is entitled to full allowance, then it's hardly a cost to the taxpayer, is it? She'll be getting money either way.

If I go onto the job bridge website there are currently 8 legal secretary internships available.

starlit · 19-01-2013 5:42pm

I think they were perfectly entitled to have said that to her she can't keep doing courses unless its benefiting her and future job prospects as well as the economy. She might as well do a jobbridge relevant to work she wants to pursue. She shouldn't feel forced to do it though. Would she not have done a springboard course with work placement or something?

That's the thing they aren't obliged to keep people on. Yes I know its free labour but she needs to do something other than a course. It was a bit silly that they said that she should have found work after her course though. Wouldn't anyone say that though. For example if you studied such and such if its a safe area to work in they expect you to get a job but you don't. No career is safe in this recession. Its a bit too much pressure to have to handle living up to someone else's expectations. If anything FAS should be making the effort to find her work really.

If there is a likelyhood her SWF payments be stopped its in her own interest to take up a jobbridge that she wants to do even if it feels like FAS is forcing their hand. She is best to take something up she isn't obliged to keep doing the internship? She could do something until something else crops up?? Or volunteer work?

To be honest FAS hasn't been much help since the recession not for me and only helped very few people that I know. So I agree with you on that OP. Those that done the jobbridges well they moved onto another jobbridge or better jobs.

Technically she be working for free 50euro is still part of the dole, dole still = unemployment and still on the dole not much help!?? Its the SWF/tax payer is paying that not the company! I can't understand how people can live on just the dole it doesn't make sense? Dole = Unemployed = working for free its not a real paid job is it?? You aren't paying taxes on it? Then its not a real job and not really paid to work for free?? In all honesty what would an extra 50euro do, not much, when you talk of bills, rent, transport, food etc 50euro be enough to pay for petrol for a month, two weeks grocery shopping or a week of public transport! Doesn't get you far when you counting the pennies!

I think if she looking for work to get help from someone not in FAS they just be biased and not much help. Yes personal touch helps but to be honest there is more than just the skills/qualities/qualifications/work experience there are a whole load of other things that affect peoples chances of finding a job. There is more demand than supply and that is part of the whole problem when looking for work here, there isn't enough jobs for everyone. It still costs money to create a job, still costs money to give someone a job but doesn't cost them to paid them as they aren't being paid if doing a jobbridge. There isn't a enough money like.

Too right its exploitation if anything she be best off going abroad!

TomRooney · 19-01-2013 5:52pm

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Allowance is means tested, benefit isn't. If she is entitled to benefit after paying stamps, then it can't be cut for 15 months, if this is the case then Fás are incorrect.

Don't know how you come to that conclusion, it's not a communist state we live in. She is not being forced to do anything :rolleyes:
If her benefit has run out but she is entitled to full allowance, then it's hardly a cost to the taxpayer, is it? She'll be getting money either way.

If I go onto the job bridge website there are currently 8 legal secretary internships available.

Why should a private company benefit from the free labour paid for by the tax payer...including an extra €50 also paid for by the tax payer that otherwise would not be paid, so it is an extra cost to the tax payer....logic aint a friend of yours is it?

syklops · 19-01-2013 6:03pm

TomRooney wrote: »

.logic aint a friend of yours is it?

Charming.

TomRooney · 19-01-2013 6:43pm

syklops wrote: »

Charming.

I detected a sense of arrogance in the post that this comment was in reply to so in my opinion it was fitting.

mossy2390 · 19-01-2013 6:51pm

where i was working they used take on 3-4 interns every 6 months, they didnt have any actual positions so available in the company but they still took on people to give them experience, the positions were giving for the benefit of the people not the company the company had enough people already employed to do all the work needed. It cost the company in terms of resources to take the people on and train them they gained very little from it themselves . They were giving jobs that would be beneficial to them in gaining future employment and got a lot of support from the other workers in the plant to teach them what they needed to know.

These people that participated have now got very well paying jobs in large multinational company's because of the experience they gained. They would not have be able to get the job without the experience they got.

I dont agree with the example above in the hotel and i have heard of tesco getting people to stock shelves, thats of no benefit to the people and is just taking paid jobs away from people. However if the scheme is used properly by the company it can be of great benefit giving people experience they would not otherwise get.

Trhiggy83 · 19-01-2013 9:50pm

I think jobbridge is one of the worst ideas in years. it is effectively keeping others out of work due to the fact that very cheap labour is being offered. Let me explain.

A job bridge intern will get 238 euro a week in total, say for example they work 35 hours a week, this will work out at 6.80 an hour.

It only costs the company hiring the intern 50 euro and does not solve the social welfare problem for the country as the social welfare Dept still has to pay the intern 188 euro a week.

Its a great idea for small businesses as they will only spend 50 euro a week on an employee instead of 8.65 x 35= 302.75.

I know companies cant abuse the system by continuously using job-bridge interns but 9 months cheap labour is enough abuse by any company.

Government needs to listen, because this scheme is being abused. How many companys offered internships before the government introduced this scheme?

Very few is the answer, because they would have had to pay the minimum wage. Now a company can effectively employ one employee for as little as 1.40 an hour in real terms. Slave labour is what comes to mind but you wont hear companies exposing this

starlit · 19-01-2013 10:01pm

Yes its a good idea in theory and on paper but in practise I don't know is it? A lot of it is picking the right internship really. To me its like killing time until something else better comes along, dead end job or what without pay!

If minimum wage came into it might be worth while but its like anything you buy you make a choice if you like it, its suitable and you need it, in terms of an internship yes work experience what she needs but she has that, if she has done a Masters she is better off going else where to look for work. An internship will fill in the gap and give her experience but since she has some already it might seem pointless until she did that and got something else while she completed the internship.

8 legal secretary jobs isn't much really, you might have 800 applicants for all 8 of those jobs only 8 people get it in the end of the day! There are probably 8,000 people looking for your average office job and there aren't that many its an area of work totally saturated if its just general office work. I know from experience i'v applied to similar jobs and got no where or realised not for me I want something more/better...where I can utilise most of my skills not just a few. It feel not worth much and I get bored.

I agree with your first line in your post trhiggy.

I don't think the company is paying the extra 50euro otherwise they wouldn't be hiring them to work for free. Far as I know the social welfare give the extra 50euro. I think companies were to introduce something extra though can't remember if it mentioned in the media. Maybe companies are giving the 50euro extra but I think its part of the tax payer/swf that are forking that bill. We basically giving people extra 50euro to not do much. Internship keep them busy but its like any job you start in do you get much responsibility what do you really learn from it compared to a proper job?

True at at least with minimum wage you are earning something compared to dole+50euro its for pittance really unless you saving your money.

Wicklowandy · 19-01-2013 10:12pm

What mossy said is the nub of it, its a great idea if employers were universally well meaning, and the dept social protection policed it properly, many unemployed people would gain experience they may not otherwise get.

But used in situations where the new employee can be trained quickly (eg stacking shelves, hotel wash up) it runs the risk of displacing entry level jobs and providing cheap labour to the exploitative employers.

But, if policed, its potential benefits outweigh the drawbacks. If a person with many years experience is unemployed for a period, as is common in these times, the ability to adapt to a new employer is undermined.

Then theres the contacts an internee will make, and the jobs market right now seems to be about who you know.

Good luck to the OPs friend, but if theres anything she can get from any internship, take it, all experiences and employment, good and bad, are more positive than blanks in a cv.

Trhiggy83 · 19-01-2013 10:17pm

doovdela wrote: »

Yes its a good idea in theory and on paper but in practise I don't know is it? A lot of it is picking the right internship really. To me its like killing time until something else better comes along, dead end job or what without pay!

If minimum wage came into it might be worth while but its like anything you buy you make a choice if you like it, its suitable and you need it, in terms of an internship yes work experience what she needs but she has that, if she has done a Masters she is better off going else where to look for work. An internship will fill in the gap and give her experience but since she has some already it might seem pointless until she did that and got something else while she completed the internship.

8 legal secretary jobs isn't much really, you might have 800 applicants for all 8 of those jobs only 8 people get it in the end of the day! There are probably 8,000 people looking for your average office job and there aren't that many its an area of work totally saturated if its just general office work. I know from experience i'v applied to similar jobs and got no where or realised not for me I want something more/better...where I can utilise most of my skills not just a few. It feel not worth much and I get bored.

I agree with your first line in your post trhiggy.

I don't think the company is paying the extra 50euro otherwise they wouldn't be hiring them to work for free. Far as I know the social welfare give the extra 50euro. I think companies were to introduce something extra though can't remember if it mentioned in the media. Maybe companies are giving the 50euro extra but I think its part of the tax payer/swf that are forking that bill. We basically giving people extra 50euro to not do much. Internship keep them busy but its like any job you start in do you get much responsibility what do you really learn from it compared to a proper job?

True at at least with minimum wage you are earning something compared to dole+50euro its for pittance really unless you saving your money.

Sorry your right, I didnt realise the 50 euro topup was paid by the social welfare Dept. So its free labour for the employer, this system is wide open for abuse and has been abused by employers. I cant find an engineering job, yet if i look on the jobbridge website there are hundreds of jobs to choose from. Someone please tell me these positions are not hindering my chances of gaining fulltime employment.

I was shocked to see the amount of jobs available, it has to be hindering employment growth.

You cant blame the employers though as it makes economic sense and if i was running a business i definately would have an intern working for me.

Being forced to take up unpaid internship on jobsbridge scheme

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