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Airport-style screening to be considered for UK train and tube stations

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  • 26-08-2012 9:14pm
    #1
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭


    I am surprised that this hasn't got a mention here. :)

    For those that commute in around major cities in the UK particularly in London, rail fares and services are horrendous enough without this extra hassle.

    Last year police given green the light to carry guns on tubes and trains

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    "Home Office in search for technologies that can rapidly screen for explosives, weapons and chemical and biological materials.

    Fresh consideration is to be given to the introduction of airport-style mass security screening at mainline rail stations and across London's tube network.

    The Home Office has launched a search for new and emerging technologies that are capable of rapidly screening huge numbers of passengers and which could be used in major train and tube stations and across the tube network.

    The new rail and tube screening technology is to be used to detect explosives, guns and knives, being carried by people and in bags, but would also need a capacity to spot chemical and biological materials. The screening equipment needs to be able to scan wheelchairs, prosthetics, crutches, pushchairs and bikes as well as people and their luggage".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/aug/19/train-tube-stations-security-screening?newsfeed=true


Comments

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    #2
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,511 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Can't see that going down well on London Underground, where everyone seems to be in a hurry and a lot of stations do very heavy passenger volumes in the peak hours.


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    #3
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    Home Office flying a kite. No way is this workable.


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    #4
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Home Office flying a kite. No way is this workable.

    It's workable alright,but only if development funding for the technology is forthcoming.

    The Home Office is kite flying sure enough,but there's nothing in their thinking which is not seriously thought through.

    Modern day Britain is being rapidly prepared for the day when Government needs to be imposed rather than accepted.....:(


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • Options
    #5
    CS McGrath
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭CS McGrath


    All this, thanks to the religion of peace.


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    #6
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    icdg wrote: »
    Can't see that going down well on London Underground, where everyone seems to be in a hurry and a lot of stations do very heavy passenger volumes in the peak hours.
    The security they will develop in the near future will be highly evasive.

    Half the battle will be achieved when they have everyone switched over to pre paid registered smart cards. (They can reveal the identities of everyone that touches in and out and match their records including that of social media etc through an array of 3D facial recognition CCTV (some which can go flick through up to 30Million frames per second) .

    By going through the above procedures they can rule out delaying a large percentage of ordinary commuters and concentrate on those that have red flagged the system. Anyone with the slightest criminal record could be expected to be pulled over and patted down and searched regularly.


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    #7
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Just need one of those total recall walk through scanners at entrances, problem solved.


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    #8
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    What a load of pointless rubbish.

    A suicide terrorist could simply detonate his bomb at the security queue of the busy station anyway.

    Or he could do it on a packed bus, or at a school, busy shopping mall, etc.

    A crazy terrorist will always find a way to kill lots of people. Fortunately there are very few such crazy people and the way to fight the ones that there are is using intelligence.


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    #9
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    CS McGrath wrote: »
    All this, thanks to the religion of peace.

    Constructive posts only please, not meaningless sound bites.

    Moderator


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    #10
    CS McGrath
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭CS McGrath


    Better to deal with the root of the problem - islamic terrorism.
    As opposed to worrying about security screening.
    no Islamic terrorism= much less screening for all of us.


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    #11
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    CS MacGrath - it shouldn't need pointing out that it wasn't people of that religion who were London's principal security threat a very short time ago. Let's leave the politics to the forums for that sort of thing.

    I think a major issue is going to be the need to wire all this stuff into old stations already crammed with crap it was never designed for like Oyster with very invasive changes for wiring etc. which is going to be shambolic for commuters. Also, the biggest catastrophe in recent years occurred on a bus which would have presumably been outside this security cordon unless they take out space for 20 or more passengers in order to accommodate the weight of the extra gear (not to mention the additional power draw on the bus systems)

    I think it's fine for the Home Office to look at worst case scenarios/most secure possible scenarios but I actually blame the "journalist" who wrote this up as something that is being credibly proposed and likely to be approved. Certainly I suspect the short-haul airlines would love to see mainline rail have costs and burdens imposed on them seeing how much extra pressure they will be under if HS2 and other improvements to medium-long distance services are constructed, given how internal air travel has contracted in France in particular.


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    #12
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,695 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    On the other hand, if there's enough incentive to develop effective screening technologies (or combinations thereof) these could be deployed at the entrances to our airport terminals or in the general/retail space, making it unnecessary to have the current find-everything bottleneck system. A really intelligent arrangement could restore the convenience of air travel to its pre 9/11 state.


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    #13
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CS McGrath wrote: »
    Better to deal with the root of the problem - islamic terrorism.
    or even better how about britain and america stop running around the world bombing and making threats twoards other countries, maybe it would help the situation, but their not going to do such a thing as they need the oil so their never going to stop islamic terrorism fully as they wouldn't have an excuse to invade countries for oil.
    CS McGrath wrote: »
    no Islamic terrorism= much less screening for all of us.
    i wouldn't be so sure, if its not terrorism it will be some other excuse.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #14
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    On the other hand, if there's enough incentive to develop effective screening technologies (or combinations thereof) these could be deployed at the entrances to our airport terminals or in the general/retail space, making it unnecessary to have the current find-everything bottleneck system. A really intelligent arrangement could restore the convenience of air travel to its pre 9/11 state.

    Or we could simply reduce airport security back to the same place as it was pre 9-11. In other words basic metal detector and x-ray check.

    Get rid of the liquid ban and need to take off shoes, etc.

    The reality is all the airport security didn't stop the shoe bomber nor the pants bomber (concerned passengers did) and there is zero evidence a liquid bomb is possible. Not a single terrorist has been caught by all the airport security. The only thing that has actually improved security is the installation of the metal door between the pilots and passengers.

    All the rest is pure security theatre.


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    #15
    Bradidup
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Bradidup


    CS McGrath wrote: »
    Better to deal with the root of the problem - islamic terrorism.
    As opposed to worrying about security screening.
    no Islamic terrorism= much less screening for all of us.
    More like false flag Terrorism.: , problem - reaction - solution = a police state.


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    #16
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    CS McGrath wrote: »
    All this, thanks to the religion of peace.

    Needless paranoia is a religion now?


    The current level of airport security we suffer is because of attacks which happened in the US when they had close to *no* security for domestic flights. It, like this suggestion, is security theatre and I think anyone living in Ireland knows well enough that security theatre does not work.


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    #17
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    bk wrote: »
    Or we could simply reduce airport security back to the same place as it was pre 9-11. In other words basic metal detector and x-ray check.

    Get rid of the liquid ban and need to take off shoes, etc.

    The reality is all the airport security didn't stop the shoe bomber nor the pants bomber (concerned passengers did) and there is zero evidence a liquid bomb is possible. Not a single terrorist has been caught by all the airport security. The only thing that has actually improved security is the installation of the metal door between the pilots and passengers.

    All the rest is pure security theatre.

    Ben Gurion Airport in Israel is the most secure in the world and has none of the security theatre stuff we have to put up with in the west. No body scanners, no taking off shoes and they only have a liquid restriction because Western authorities insisted on it for passengers arriving from Ben Gurion.

    Security in Israel is based on profiling and on the fact that it is people who are potentially dangerous, not inanimate objects. Security in Israel will strike up a conversation with passengers and anyone arousing suspicion is hauled in for a more thorough check, but because of PC do-gooders profiling is not acceptable in the west because it is deemed to be 'racist' or 'discriminatory' so we have the current security theatre, which is just a show.


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    #18
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Ben Gurion Airport in Israel is the most secure in the world and has none of the security theatre stuff we have to put up with in the west. No body scanners, no taking off shoes and they only have a liquid restriction because Western authorities insisted on it for passengers arriving from Ben Gurion.

    Security in Israel is based on profiling and on the fact that it is people who are potentially dangerous, not inanimate objects. Security in Israel will strike up a conversation with passengers and anyone arousing suspicion is hauled in for a more thorough check, but because of PC do-gooders profiling is not acceptable in the west because it is deemed to be 'racist' or 'discriminatory' so we have the current security theatre, which is just a show.
    I passed through Ben Gurion in the mid 80's and it was an experience, 15 minutes interrogation, what I had for breakfast etc. troubles in Ireland and the fact that I wasn't a part of a tour group did not help. The west is only catching up on them.


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    #19
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,463 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I've been through Ben Gurion Airport and there is no security bs there, they are extremely thorough. They open your carry on bag and wipe down every hard surface with bomb detection material.

    The bottle of water I had, they asked me for it, wiped the outside of it and then handed it back to me and I boarded with it. Says it all really, if the Isreali's aren't concerned about a bottle of water, then no one should be.

    I had to dump the same bottle of water when transferring in Charles De Gaul airport. Which also shows how much bs the liquid thing is. If they were really concerned about liquid bombs then they wouldn't risk people dumping massive liquid bottles in plastic bins right next to a line a hundred people long!!

    BTW The people who do the interviewing at Ben Gurion seem to be mostly young pretty Isreali girls doing I guess their military duty. Makes the whole experience much more pleasant and I'm sure makes any extremist type very uncomfortable.


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    #20
    CS McGrath
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭CS McGrath


    Well, what I was saying is we should discuss what the root of the problem as opposed to the secondly things.
    Yes, IRA were doing this 20 years ago, yet again, it doesn't mean we should talk about it.


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    #21
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    CS McGrath wrote: »
    Well, what I was saying is we should discuss what the root of the problem as opposed to the secondly things.
    Yes, IRA were doing this 20 years ago, yet again, it doesn't mean we should talk about it.

    you could argue that I suppose (and I'd agree for now) but who is to say that in 5 or 10 years you won't have some Christian cult doing the same, or Eco terrorists or some other pissed off minority.

    A simple, fast, unobtrusive scanner is what's needed and while my initial Total Recall comment was a joke that practicality of such a system (or one comparable) is what's needed. No scanning one person at a time, mass scanners placed in choke points or corridors so everyone is collected. Don't reckon it'll happen any time soon though and we will continue to be subjected to lines in airports and very small risks (or huge delays if implemented) elsewhere.


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    #22
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,243 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    CS McGrath wrote: »
    Better to deal with the root of the problem - islamic terrorism.
    As opposed to worrying about security screening.
    no Islamic terrorism= much less screening for all of us.
    On a day to day basis, the biggest security threat on London's public transport is young men with knives and to a lesser degree those with guns - real or replica.


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    #23
    purplepanda
    Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭purplepanda


    Obviously some high tech security consultancy company with friends in government is angling for an expensive contract using their latest "foolproof" cutting edge technology.:D

    Just like the recent UK identity card fiasco under the last Labour government, it will cost taxpayers billions with no real end results & probably get canceled when costs really start to mount up & the public start to complain.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/may/27/theresa-may-scrapping-id-cards

    Very lucrative work if you can get it!! :rolleyes:


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    #24
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    No doubt the UK authorities are gearing up for whats ahead, ie civil unrest over the forthcoming global financial crash, possible domestic backlash over UK involvement in Syrian / Iranian warfare etc.


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    #25
    AngryLips
    Registered Users Posts: 2,677 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Makes you wonder how we, as a Nation, managed to get by all those years during the troubles without these proposed controls


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    #26
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,641 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Makes you wonder how we, as a Nation, managed to get by all those years during the troubles without these proposed controls

    NI attempted some level of this silliness - the ridiculous border controls and the bag searches to get in to Belfast City Centre.

    Did it work - did it bollox.


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    #27
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,469 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Makes you wonder how we, as a Nation, managed to get by all those years during the troubles without these proposed controls

    terrorists were classier back then


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