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Protesters Filming Gardai Vs Garda right to protect their identity

  • 02-05-2008 9:37am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭


    Just looking at some videos on youtube there and they latest craze seems to be for protestors to continue to film gardai , if they are stopped or asked questions.
    Most gardai dont want to be filmed but is there a law whereby the garda can ask the person to put down the camera or take the camera off them. Gardai seem to be intimidated by the presence of the camera.

    Ive seen other clips with the same scenario in Scotland for the g6 summit and the police are quoting the data protection act as a right to ask people to stop filming them but would this be a arrestable offence.

    The only thing that Guards in this country could probably use is obstruction of garda in course of their duty or failure to comply with directions of garda , but would this hold up in court?


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭el_tiddlero


    given that there's CCTV cameras everywhere that the Gardai can use the footage from to gather information/evidence the old adage "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" comes to mind.

    If they're watching you, then you have every right to watch them back..

    If filming them is the only way some people think they'll get a fair deal, then so be it, bad reputations have to come from somewhere, so to my mind, anything that allows people to see Gardai as more peaceful and honest has to be good. The more videos showing Gardai behaving reasonably and properly the better, no?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    I can't see how the Gardai could stop people doing that. They are public servants working in public places.

    I don't think they should be able to either, even though I can see how this can be annoiyng verging on obstructing sometimes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭culabula88


    But hasnt ever person a right to protect their identity and not to have their picture published on youtube and the like without their permission? it amounts to harrassment in most cases. take a look at youtube.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    Not if the filming is being done in a public place as far as i know.

    Plus Gardai are in a bit different situation - they are not just members of the public, but Civil Servants employed by the State. They have to have their number displayed on the epaulets anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 400 ✭✭el_tiddlero


    The rules on filming in public are something like this:
    you may film people in public without permission so long as you don't show them going in or out of a premesis (i.e. their place of work or house or whatever)
    So, if you film a Garda who's just on the street talking to you or walking around, then there's no problem... If, however, you were to film them going into their station or a house or anything like that, then you would need permission to use their image. However, as YouTube is largely unregulated, I don't see any effective way for this to be policed...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭culabula88


    So if somebody decides to film somebody anybody from general public then there is nothing that person can do?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    Pretty much. How and where the recording can be used is a whole different issue though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    culabula88 wrote: »
    So if somebody decides to film somebody anybody from general public then there is nothing that person can do?


    More or less but the right to privacy and harassment comes into play. Shouldnt be in my opinion but there you go.

    As for Gardai, well for starters no person likes being recorded unless they are film stars. Just look at parties etc, everyone looking away "Get the camera off me".

    In the clips you see on Youtube you will also note how many are edited to bits and usually posted and recorded in the first place purely to annoy Gardai, make them look bad and/or stupid. Then theres also those 'video vigilantes' that for some strange reason are just dying to catch something they can use against the Garda in question even when the Gardai are just doing their jobs (a job Mr Video wouldnt even attempt)

    The video clips just showing Gardai arresting people, etc that the cameraman just happened to catch on a phone while out and about I dont think anyone minds however be advised that it could easily be seized as evidence.

    In regards stations, you cannot video or take photos of Garda stations, Gardai coming and going and vehicles under the offences against the state Act 1939 / 1998. This could stretch to the faces of Gardai but to my knowledge it never has.

    You can also not publish pictures of Gardai for commercial gain unless your accedited media.

    Besides, how often are Gardai photographed without even knowing by tourists or even pose with people for a photo? I have been dozens of times however I have also demanded people remove photos from their cameras when they have simple walked up and rammed it in my face.
    ojewriej wrote: »
    Plus Gardai are in a bit different situation - they are not just members of the public
    And your point is? Being state employed removes human rights? Or is it because you think tax payers pay our wages? If so then Im self employed because I pay tax. Push that further, do I pay Bill Gates wages? I have Windows XP. Can I run into a barbers and start snapping away? Afterall he serves me when I get a haircut.
    ojewriej wrote: »
    They have to have their number displayed on the epaulets anyway.
    I dont see what that has to do with the subject at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭culabula88


    im not really talking about tourists etc. thats different or people taking a photo for photo sakes e.g. tourists etc. but recording somebodies face and actions and then posting it on youtube is just wrong.it exploits the person and the fact that they are a garda just trying to do their duty.

    Is there something like offences against security of the state and you could argue that photographing a garda could identify them.I think there definately needs to be a law to stop protesters and general thugs recording gardai and putting them up on youtube when ever they like. Im not talking about general recording of say gardai on the beat or whatever, what im talking about is someone putting a camera into their faces and then putting it up on youtube.

    If the garda did the same to these guys , all you would here would be civil liberties were infringed


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,783 ✭✭✭maglite


    I have also demanded people remove photos from their cameras when they have simple walked up and rammed it in my face.


    Can i ask what lets you demand, and what happens if they say so.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 822 ✭✭✭Mutz


    maglite wrote: »
    Can i ask what lets you demand, and what happens if they say so.

    I presume he is using his right as a citizen to demand that they remove his image from someone elses camera.

    I'd say he's "demanding" that they remove it on personal grounds.

    If a Garda shoved a camera in your face and took a photo no doubt joe Duffy would be hearing about it! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    maglite wrote: »
    Can i ask what lets you demand, and what happens if they say so.

    Presume you mean no. I would take the camera as evidence and arrest them for obstruction under Section 19, Criminal justice (Public order) Act 1994 considering the camera was literally 1 foot from my face and not only interfered but also obstructed my view while I was dealing with someone.

    In relation to other circumstances You may also look at the following. Now I want to state now that the below would not always be applicable as I already stated in a previous post.

    Section 7, Offences against the state Act 1939
    Section 9, Offences against the state Act 1939
    Section 12, Offences against the state Act 1939
    Section 8, Offences against the state (Amendment) Act 1998


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 401 ✭✭culabula88


    I wonder how many of the above would suffice in court. If a guard arrests the person , do they have the right to delete the images from the persons camera.

    I think the situation of things going up on youtube needs to be stopped


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭Gavin


    culabula88 wrote: »
    I wonder how many of the above would suffice in court. If a guard arrests the person , do they have the right to delete the images from the persons camera.

    I think the situation of things going up on youtube needs to be stopped


    Why ? It's perfectly legal. There is nothing with the videoing/photographing of people in public places.

    http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/05/09/photographers-rights/


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Believe it or not, the vast majority of protesters use cameras not to try and catch anybody out, but because having a camera present guarantees everything runs smoothly. Everybody - from all corners - makes an effort to behave themselves when there's a camera on them. If trouble does kick off, it reflects badly on the groups protesting, because whatever issue they're trying to represent becomes associated with rent-a-mob half wits who want to play cops and robbers. Having a camera keeps manners on all involved, and stops that happening from the word go.

    That said, I don't doubt it's frustrating from the point of view of a Guard to be filmed by a cameraman with a hostile agenda. I'm sure the large majority of Guards do their jobs just fine without Johnny Public recording them all the time. But...

    ... I remember the antics of the infamous Robocop a few years back, and if I hadn't seen that on video, I wouldn't have believed it.

    The Gardai are the representatives of the State's law on ground level, and accept the public scrutiny that responsibilty brings with it every time they put on the uniform. A private citizen has no such responsibility. That is why this is an issue related to the epaulette numbers, because from the public point of view, it's a question of accountability.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    Ive been asked to stop filming before by the gardai.

    it was on o connell street and it was a professional tv shoot. basicly the gard at the GPO used the act that says if asked to move on you have to...

    if they asked for my tape i wouldent of given it to them...
    wouldent that be steeling if they took it? just asking of corse..


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭Gavin


    anto-t wrote: »
    Ive been asked to stop filming before by the gardai.

    it was on o connell street and it was a professional tv shoot. basicly the gard at the GPO used the act that says if asked to move on you have to...

    A professional TV shoot would have obtained permission, or at least notified Gardai that they would be filming at a certain time/place. Yee were probably moved on for obstruction. (It being a public thoroughfare and all)


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,037 ✭✭✭afatbollix


    naw you dont need permission.. it was only for a documentry not the next block buster film.. it was in the middle bit and there was a total of 6 people there.. anyway we went away got a cup of coffee and went back.. and then got what we wanted...

    the gards normally are very helpfull tho when they see us.. one even got rid of a drunk knob who was annoying us one night.. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Throw rocks at the Gardai for 5 minutes, and when they come over, whip out the mobile phone to video tape them forcing you to the ground, to stop you from throwing rocks at them. Mobile phone only shows the Gardai defending themselves, but as it doesn't show the rocks being thrown, the scumbags claim it was an unprovoked attacked. Pretty sure this is what happened in the Robocop case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    And your point is? Being state employed removes human rights? Or is it because you think tax payers pay our wages? If so then Im self employed because I pay tax. Push that further, do I pay Bill Gates wages? I have Windows XP. Can I run into a barbers and start snapping away? Afterall he serves me when I get a haircut.

    I didn't say anything about who is paying your wages. What I meant is that public has more rights to a more transparency when it comes to work of Civil Servants, Gardai included, than when it comes to work done by employees of some private company.
    I dont see what that has to do with the subject at all.

    OP was talking about their right to privacy. I just pointed out that they don't work anonymously, as they can be identified by the numbers displayed on their shoulders.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    the_syco wrote: »
    Throw rocks at the Gardai for 5 minutes, and when they come over, whip out the mobile phone to video tape them forcing you to the ground, to stop you from throwing rocks at them. Mobile phone only shows the Gardai defending themselves, but as it doesn't show the rocks being thrown, the scumbags claim it was an unprovoked attacked. Pretty sure this is what happened in the Robocop case.

    I had this very instance not so long ago. We got a report of a male being abusive outside a well known boozer. Turn up and this idiot has already been bottled in said boozer for his big mouth. As I start to speak to this bloke, a Canadian built like a short brick *hithouse, it becomes readily apparent that he is an obnoxious idiot that cannot hold his liquor and is heavily under the influence of drink and drugs. He rapidly begins to mouth off to me and no sooner than a black member of the public has walked past his racist views come to the fore. At this point I've had enough and want nothing more than to bring him in so I place a cuff on him and nick him; he goes off big style. I've since watched some nice cctv of me dropping the bloke with a bit of old school jiu-jitsu (always useful) but it wound up taking six of us to get this guy under any semblance of control. He was a real handful. As I was struggling with this violent racist, drugged up, p*ssed up asshole I distinctly remember a crowd gathering to watch the goings-on and I remember hearing a number of people say, as I was struggling to restrain this numpty; "Bloody Police brutality. Look at that, police brutality". I don't know what surprised me more, the strength of this geezer or the fact that the public not only stood around and watched but also thought I was beating him up! It took six coppers to get the twat into a caged van.

    What the public didn't see was that this bloke was a violent racist asshole and had resisted arrest. They also didn't see him try to headbutt a colleague, or kick me in the head, nor did they see him try to spit blood into my face or that of my colleagues......among other things. Nope we were being true to form and brutalising this poor man. As we in the Police are prone to do :rolleyes:

    However, I'm happy to say that this person met the Met.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    ojewriej wrote: »
    OP was talking about their right to privacy. I just pointed out that they don't work anonymously, as they can be identified by the numbers displayed on their shoulders.
    And in McDonalds they were name tags. Its simple because your dealing with the public not about transparancy and shoulder numbers were originally an internal id for the Gardai. Remember its only in the last couple of years that they have been introduced outside the DMR.
    ojewriej wrote: »
    I didn't say anything about who is paying your wages. What I meant is that public has more rights to a more transparency when it comes to work of Civil Servants, Gardai included, than when it comes to work done by employees of some private company.

    Why?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,155 ✭✭✭metman


    Originally Posted by ojewriej
    I didn't say anything about who is paying your wages. What I meant is that public has more rights to a more transparency when it comes to work of Civil Servants, Gardai included, than when it comes to work done by employees of some private company.

    What a lot of people forget is that members of the police are also members of the public. Similarly what a lot of people forget is that police officers are also tax payers and pay their own wages. So saying 'I PAY YOUR WAGES' to a copper won't cut much ice. My response to this statement is usually one of two stock answers:

    (1) Thanks for the boots, I like em! By the way I also pay taxes you stupid <insert expletive>.

    (2) You don't pay my wages, you're unemployed, I pay your <insert expletive> social you waste of space <insert expletive>.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Fyr.Fytr


    My Da's favorite one

    Oh so your that tight ******x I've been meaning to talk to you


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭vasch_ro


    I just ask for a raise !!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭ojewriej


    And in McDonalds they were name tags. Its simple because your dealing with the public not about transparancy and shoulder numbers were originally an internal id for the Gardai. Remember its only in the last couple of years that they have been introduced outside the DMR.

    And can you take your number off or hide it when you are on duty? Because McDonald employees can.
    Why?

    Because like it or not, Public is your boss. Members of the public trusted you with certain powers other people don't have, like power of arrest, and it's only normal they have a right to see how do you use this powers.

    And I'm not talking about "I pay your wages" BS here, it's a stupid statement to make, and i don't blame any cop who gets annoyed when someone says that to him.

    And I know, LEOs are themselves members of the public, but that doesn't change anything.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,232 ✭✭✭Elessar


    I was filming a piece for a documentary once just outside the GPO. There were two guards in the shot and one of them obviously didn't like being filmed so he shouted over to me "DID YOU ASK ME DID I WANT TO BE FILMED?!!"

    Considering his tone I was not going to get into an argument, so I just said "no, sorry" and walked off.

    Question is, do I need to ask?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭Gavin


    No.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    the_syco wrote: »
    Throw rocks at the Gardai for 5 minutes, and when they come over, whip out the mobile phone to video tape them forcing you to the ground, to stop you from throwing rocks at them. Mobile phone only shows the Gardai defending themselves, but as it doesn't show the rocks being thrown, the scumbags claim it was an unprovoked attacked. Pretty sure this is what happened in the Robocop case.

    that is not what happened they were no rocks thrown.

    there were few empty cans and plastic bottlse thrown by people not really associated with the event when the gardai surrounded the group

    it doesn't justify chasing people to baton them.
    that is not what happened, it doesn't justify batoning people already lying prone on the ground

    it doesn't justify batoning random passers by and journalists trying to do they job, that sort of stuff clearly shows the gardai were out of control that day.

    it was a unusual situation but just imagine all the beatings not caught on camera.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    ojewriej wrote: »
    And can you take your number off or hide it when you are on duty? Because McDonald employees can.
    Im not sure where your going with this one, Staff are supposed to wear name tags, I know I worked there. Shoulder numbers, despite popular myth, is not a legal requirement. Theres no law stating that I must wear or display them. Its an internal discipline matter the same as McDonalds is.
    ojewriej wrote: »
    Because like it or not, Public is your boss. Members of the public trusted you with certain powers other people don't have, like power of arrest, and it's only normal they have a right to see how do you use this powers.

    And I'm not talking about "I pay your wages" BS here, it's a stupid statement to make, and i don't blame any cop who gets annoyed when someone says that to him.

    And I know, LEOs are themselves members of the public, but that doesn't change anything.

    So it does come down to, "I pay your wages", how else do you consider the public to be my boss?

    On that basis you can sack me, discipline me, negotiate my wages and tell me what jobs to do or not do? No you cant because your not my boss anymore than I am Bill Gates boss and a good thing to or policing would be a complete waste of time considering my boss wouldnt let me arrest him, give him a ticket or in fact take any action he didnt like.

    Which come to think of it, makes me wonder which boss I should listen to, the guy that got punched shouting for his assailant to be arrested or my other boss, the puncher who is screaming to let him go. Who is the Vice president and who is the Senior president in this company?

    If you want to compare us to other areas then I suggest you consider yourself a customer and as such are entitled to a certain level of service in terms of manners and product delivery. Not however, in terms of seeing how the company is run or who is paid what or how much money the company spends in certain areas. Microsoft dont tell you that nor do you get an input into the decision making and neither do you have such an insight into the police.
    that is not what happened they were no rocks thrown.

    there were few empty cans and plastic bottlse thrown by people not really associated with the event when the gardai surrounded the group

    it doesn't justify chasing people to baton them.
    that is not what happened, it doesn't justify batoning people already lying prone on the ground

    it doesn't justify batoning random passers by and journalists trying to do they job, that sort of stuff clearly shows the gardai were out of control that day.

    it was a unusual situation but just imagine all the beatings not caught on camera.

    Im sorry, whats this in relation to? :confused:

    Would it have anything to do with the events that resulted in Gardai being charged with assault? I suspect so but then again, Im fuzzy on the whole thing. Wasnt 'Robocop' found innocent on all charges by a jury of citizens of the state?

    Sounds like a case of a man being wrongly accused to me considering we do believe in innocent until proven guilty dont we? Maybe we should have a tribunal and see if certain people on the day perjured themselves in court and contaminated video evidence? the juries decision would seem to indicate that this may have happened.


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