How to De-Skangerise Public Transport?

murphaph · 12-03-2006 3:37pm

Although on reflection to the ^^above^^, I think his 9th symphony was actually a choral, t'would still work though

mike65 · 12-03-2006 3:48pm

I was thinking of Elgar myself!

Mike.

dowlingm · 12-03-2006 4:22pm

mike65

that's actually a great idea - some shops do that to drive off skangers loitering in their doorways.

Pipe in Lyric FM, no more skangers... and ridership drops 15% (although farepaying ridership probably only drops 8%

)

shltter · 12-03-2006 5:08pm

edanto wrote:

Seems to be a lot of support for the texting idea. Does anyone know how Dublin Bus works on the inside? Is an idea like this likely to fly?

If so, would it be worth sending a letter to them or would that just be waste of my time?

The main problems with the texting idea are that

The Gardai just do not respond in anything like a timely fashion

Identifying the bus that the text came from

The likelyhood that the skangers would have left before the Gardai arrived or indeed that the journey would have ended

Most important of all a text is useless to a Garda that responds to it the Gardai need someone to identify the culprit to them as you can be sure that the anti social behaviour will stop once the Gardai show up so the Gardai need someone to say it was A,B and C and they were doing XYZ

What we need is Gardai that are ready willing and able to respond when called and Transport Gardai that ride on buses uniformed and plainclothes

On the issue of smoking DB had plain clothes inspectors riding buses and caught many people but the results from the prosecutions were very disappointing including one judge who would not convict anyone because he did not want to give anyone a criminal record for the minor offence of smoking on a bus.

murphaph · 12-03-2006 7:01pm

mike65 wrote:

I was thinking of Elgar myself!

Mike.

Ah yes, a nimrod up the jacksie would also have the desired effect!

Hecate · 12-03-2006 8:40pm

If I find someone is smoking I always tell the driver when I'm getting off the bus. You'd be surprised, they are quite responsive and will stop the bus and make an announcement that they aren't going anywhere until the smoker puts it out or gets out.

You'd find a horde of angry commuters to be a most effective weapon - all it takes is a few people to constantly report these guys; they'll realise its not worth the hassle and just sit quietly.

markpb · 13-03-2006 11:57am

shltter wrote:

On the issue of smoking DB had plain clothes inspectors riding buses and caught many people but the results from the prosecutions were very disappointing including one judge who would not convict anyone because he did not want to give anyone a criminal record for the minor offence of smoking on a bus.

Thats really disappointing but hardly suprirsing in Ireland

On the spot fines and overnight incarceration are the only way :-)

MarkoP11 · 13-03-2006 12:47pm

Hecate wrote:

If I find someone is smoking I always tell the driver when I'm getting off the bus. You'd be surprised, they are quite responsive and will stop the bus and make an announcement that they aren't going anywhere until the smoker puts it out or gets out.

You'd find a horde of angry commuters to be a most effective weapon - all it takes is a few people to constantly report these guys; they'll realise its not worth the hassle and just sit quietly.

Its not reliable solution I've been stuck roadside in the cold while the troublemaker makes his stand, it requiring the presence of 4 gardai to sort it out. I've been on too many trains delayed awaiting the gardai who are more often then not, not in any hurry.

The approach relies on joe passenger taking some action and most of us want to avoid any possibility of trouble. I've had some interesting experiences at 6pm everyone around me could see what I did but we all sat there as no one person would make a move

The music trick is used in the UK and is quite effective but remember you can't blast Mozart at 100db at 11:30pm. Certain composers are more effective then others

Just hope the trouble makers didn't see A Clockwork Orange

Name and shame just like the litter offences would be a good start but the courts won't deal with these people. You can get put away for 3 months for fare evasion, that would be a good start

civdef · 13-03-2006 11:41pm

What do people make of the type of private security now seen at Heuston?
I've never had any dealings with them (would be interested to hear if people have), but they have a smart turn-out, look tough and are very visible, which instantly puts them in the top 10% of private security anywhere. They certainly look more serious than the security folks at Busaras, for example.

All they need now is some mean looking dogs to be similar to the scary security folks one sees on French railways.

Public transport has plenty of bye-laws which give agents of the transport companies all the powers they need to legally deal with anti-social behaviour, so private security personnel deployed visibly could go a long way.

I'm not sure Ireland has the infrastructure to justify a transport police force like the British Transport Police , though maybe a separate Garda Public Transport unit, like that operated by the London Met, might be of some use.

paulm17781 · 13-03-2006 11:50pm

I've had a couple of (minor) run-ins with DART security (are they still about?) in the past. They are very scary men, they look kind of like the bouncers you saw 10 years ago, rough. They would generally sort out trouble but they are very rarely seen.

proteus · 15-03-2006 5:54pm

Texting the PT company, PA announcements and security patrols are all very well but if the courts fail to prosecute the offenders then it is all a waste of time.

I went to a Dublin Bus public meeting a few years ago and all of the above anti-social issues were raised. DB reported that they did have undercover staff doing intermittant checks but the offenders when brought to court received pathetic fines like €40.

It would cost more than ten times this amount to bring people to court in the first place.

I think punishment like stiff fines or a month scrubbing the bus floors is called for... Punishment for the Judges that is:D

paulm17781 · 15-03-2006 5:59pm

proteus wrote:

I think punishment like a month scrubbing the bus floors is called for.

I really like that idea. Make the 'people' who vandalise transport the people who clean it up. That would beat respect into them.

thewing · 15-03-2006 6:02pm

Transport21 Fan wrote:

There are simply no skangers on the New York subway. Even in the arse end of Brooklyn or the Bronx at 3AM you are fairly safe on the subway. Transit Cops everywhere. Walking the trains with radios to summon them to incidents if they are needed. They even dress in plain clothes and pretend they are asleep and drunk so if some pickpocket tries to take their wallet the jump up and arrest them.

You must be joking - there are far deadlier folk lurking around penn station at times than your average irish scobe....better the devil you know that the devil you don't

SeanW · 15-03-2006 10:23pm

shltter wrote:

On the issue of smoking DB had plain clothes inspectors riding buses and caught many people but the results from the prosecutions were very disappointing including one judge who would not convict anyone because he did not want to give anyone a criminal record for the minor offence of smoking on a bus.

That's the real problem, the some judges (and some prosecutors) in this country are far too lenient.

These individuals should have been put away for life for 415 attempted murders. But the DPP decided that a trio of railway line barricaders should be tried in a low court with a 6 month maximum.

daymobrew · 16-03-2006 1:37pm

shltter wrote:

The main problems with the texting idea are that
...
Identifying the bus that the text came from

If the text gave route number, bus number (on ticket) direction, issue, floor (e.g. 76, 945, town, smoking, upstairs) it would help a lot.
HQ could phone back and ask the reporter for additional information, asking in such a way as to only need yes/no answers e.g. "Still smoking?", "Males?", "More than 1?"

I realise that getting current location falls outside the yes/no answer but that answer be easily disguised in something like "we're nearly there, just passing Heuston Station, crossing the river".

Of course, going down to the driver could be quicker still.

Transport21 Fan · 16-03-2006 3:02pm

thewing wrote:

You must be joking - there are far deadlier folk lurking around penn station at times than your average irish scobe....better the devil you know that the devil you don't

For 10 years I lived in New York. I took the LIRR out of Penn Station at 3, 4 AM constantly. I had freinds who lived in Hell's Kitchen and I thought nothing of walking down to 9th Ave and up behind the Port Authority Terminal. This was before the big clean up and zero tolerance. Never once did I ever have any problems. Have taken the NY subway though the South Bronx at all hours and never had a problem. Trasport police make a huge difference.

cuckoo · 17-03-2006 9:04pm

I used to get the 13/13A/83 very regularly for work and the journey home in the evening was unpleasant. Funnily enough none of the people who treated the upper deck as their smoking room seemed to be up and about in the mornings.

But, occasionally a simple polite request to the smokers would result in a 'sorry missus' and the cigarette being put out, accompanied by a shocked look on their faces - it was as if nobody had ever before asked them to stop. Of course, other times would result in a tirade of abuse, and my personal favourite, "it's not bothering anyone else" (cue the rest of the upper deck who've been watching with interest staring at their shoes).

I know we can't predict who's going to be a violent nutjob if asked to put out a cigarette/joint, and there were some smokers that i'd have a quick glance at and then i'd stare at my shoes in case of further eye contact because they looked to be scary out of it, but maybe if more people simply asked them to stop the culture of acceptance would end too.

Victor · 20-03-2006 4:59am

Its like many things, the people at the top drive and don't care. Put some ministers on the 77* and you'll see a change.

shltter wrote:

The main problems with the texting idea are that

Identifying the bus that the text came from

Its on your bus ticket.

On the issue of smoking DB had plain clothes inspectors riding buses and caught many people but the results from the prosecutions were very disappointing including one judge who would not convict anyone because he did not want to give anyone a criminal record for the minor offence of smoking on a bus.

Then we need to put judges on buses.

* Only place I've been offered a blowjob at 7:30am - by a 13 year old.

maxheadroom · 20-03-2006 12:26pm

Victor wrote:

Its on your bus ticket.

Not if you use a weekly/monthly/annual ticket

BuffyBot · 20-03-2006 2:03pm

Its on your bus ticket.

As pointed out, not all of them do. And not everyone knows what the information means, or which bit is important etc. It's another layer of complexity which makes it harder to work.

J.P.M · 13-07-2006 4:48am

Red Alert wrote:

The bus drivers are told to use the PA to kick passengers off if they're mis behaving but the scangers would probably just laugh at it (if indeed it works at all). I think we should have conductors / security guards on the most troublesome routes or else have cops plain clothes just catching different buses on these routes.

To be honest all the people are sheep. Dont leave it to the driver, stand up and unite.

jjbrien · 13-07-2006 10:54pm

You dont need to put the bus number on the ticket. All that would be needed is a sign placed at the front os the upper deck and deside all the emmegrancy exit signs stating the number to text and a unique bus id number for each bus. so what when its recived by hq they can call the driver to verfiy its not a prank.

Waltons · 13-07-2006 11:04pm

Victor wrote:

Put some ministers on the 77 and you'll see a change

Just noticed that this thread is quite old, but hear hear!

edanto · 15-07-2006 2:33pm

That's a great suggestion jjbrien, it really makes it sound quite workable. Anyone from DB think of potential problems with that?

MarkoP11 · 15-07-2006 6:49pm

The ID number is printed on the panel above the front doors already

Red Alert · 15-07-2006 8:47pm

The ID number is on the new ticket machines (i think it's the far-right of the printed numbers).

People should get big fines and/or community service for smoking on a bus.

John R · 16-07-2006 12:31pm

jjbrien wrote:

You dont need to put the bus number on the ticket. All that would be needed is a sign placed at the front os the upper deck and deside all the emmegrancy exit signs stating the number to text and a unique bus id number for each bus. so what when its recived by hq they can call the driver to verfiy its not a prank.

The problem with all these text/call emergency number ideas is what happens after a call is made.

Bus drivers have had radios and procedures to call in assistance for trouble for decades. The reason they rarely bother is down to experience. A call to report some scumbags kicking the crap out of somebody on the upper deck followed by a no-show from the Gardai. repeat a number of times and they soon learn that there is no point.

Just imagine the level of non-response the Gardai would give to a huge increase in calls thanks to a publicised number for the public to use. It would end up like the dangerous driving hotline, completely ignored.

paulm17781 · 16-07-2006 12:41pm

In London they use a similar camera layout to what have recently been put on busses here. The big difference is London Busses have a screen above the stairs which shows what the camera is looking at. That way the skanger on the 8.20 145 every weekday will know that he can be seen rolling joints. Not sure if it is any good since the drivers never seem to use the cameras anyway (in my experience).

Red Alert · 16-07-2006 10:49pm

the cameras aren't used live, unless some of them are connected to the screen replacing the periscope. the big plus with the new digital cameras is that every bus has the recorder fitted.

jjbrien · 16-07-2006 11:18pm

paulm17781 wrote:

In London they use a similar camera layout to what have recently been put on busses here. The big difference is London Busses have a screen above the stairs which shows what the camera is looking at. That way the skanger on the 8.20 145 every weekday will know that he can be seen rolling joints. Not sure if it is any good since the drivers never seem to use the cameras anyway (in my experience).

The problem with the cameras on the busses is that in my experience 50% of bus drivers have the monitor turned off. Most bus drivers are too busy keeping their eyes on the road than looking at the monitor. Does anybody know if the cameras on the busses trasmit to a secruity control center?

Centan things need to be done on Irish transport. Dublin bus needs to adpot there own secruity force to combat the scum that like to run rampant on our buses. The scum need to be put in their place. The texting system does need to be put into place. I lived for a year in Toronto and I seen how good policing on public trasit can be done. On the busses there needs to be a saftey alarm you can press if you are attacked by a scumbag. See this link for what they have in Toronto.

The offenders need to be punished publicly. If they are caught recking a bus stop they should be made wear a big orange junpsuit and made go around and clean up the bus stops and clean the grafiti off busses. There should also be a poster on board that has photos of the offenders that were caught somking on the busses. Only by publicly shaming these people will thier attitude change. At present they know they will just get off the hock as the guards wont bother coming out. This needs to change. CIE needs a mobile secruity force who are very visible even on routes that are less travelled on. If a Skanger sees the CIE secuity on the busses, in a car following a bus or on a train they will soon learn that they cant get away with terroising the public. In Toronto on the TTC you see the Special Constables or Police riding the busses, trams and trains so most skangers keep dont even think about casusing troble.

In my time over there I never seen somebody lighting up a joint at thw back of a bus, tram or train. Because they know the Special Constables or Police will be around very quickly.

How to De-Skangerise Public Transport?

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