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What a spineless nation...

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Also, nobody for snitching to the SW has addressed the gaping disparity between amount of reports and amount of reports that concerned genuine cases of fraud.
    Why should people who are for 'snitching' address this disparity?
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Is every incorrect accusation of fraud a mere mistake on the part of the person who submitted the report?
    There will be
    a) genuine reports that are established to be fraud
    b) genuine reports that can't be established to be fraud, but may be fraud
    c) genuine reports that are mistaken
    d) malicious reports


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    The Bondholders took my money, the Welfare fraudsters stole my money.
    Thieving is thieving.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    At what cost and after how many years?
    That's another 2 questions for you woodoo.

    I was to busy to respond on fri.

    Yes PPARS had a bad start. But it has been working fairly well now for the last 4 or 5 years. The people i know who use it say its a fairly unforgiving system but fine once you have experience using it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    lividduck wrote: »
    The Bondholders took my money, the Welfare fraudsters stole my money.
    Thieving is thieving.
    The social welfare officers who do their sums wrong gave your money away.
    Have a look

    http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=cash%20incentive%20to%20report%20welfare%20fraud%20ireland&source=web&cd=10&ved=0CGYQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnotesonthefront.typepad.com%2F&ei=5GJBT9ulH4KphAfAp8ywDw&usg=AFQjCNG1_4UPhXYkdRHVaubalNsLwEbqKQ


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    woodoo wrote: »
    I was to busy to respond on fri.

    Yes PPARS had a bad start. But it has been working fairly well now for the last 4 or 5 years. The people i know who use it say its a fairly unforgiving system but fine once you have experience using it.
    But costing on average €6 million per year to run.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    The fools can't get PPARS to work properly. Imagine them trying to set up a common database..
    Are you saying that just because one part of the public service had a failed IT project, no other part of the public service should be trusted to implement other IT projects?:eek:

    There are lots of examples of successful IT projects in the public service, for example, the Revenue ROS and CONTAX systems. Naturally enough, nobody ever hears about the successes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    But costing on average €6 million per year to run.

    I'm not aware how much it costs to run.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    But costing on average €6 million per year to run.
    Is that good or bad? How much should it cost to run per year?


    I'm getting the impression in this thread that people can't construct a good argument against reporting social welfare fraud, so are constructing (bad) arguments against other unrelated stuff instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 609 ✭✭✭Dubit10


    jewett wrote: »
    I am ashamed to be Irish today.

    As a taxpayer , lets get this straight from the start - I do not condone social welfare fraud.

    However, I find it extremely sad that people - neighbors, relatives and friends and now "ratting" on each other to the state. There is now going to an atmosphere of mutual distrust in our communities. This is like something of what would of happened in East Germany.

    Meanwhile, when it comes to corrupt politicians, bankers and senior civil servants. These spineless people won't take to the streets. Instead, they hide behind the anonymity of email or text messaging. They will tolerate corruption as long as its done by people in suits. Sickening.

    Ireland really is changing for the worse.

    It's always been that way in Ireland i'm afraid. A country of cowards by and large.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Is that good or bad? How much should it cost to run per year?


    I'm getting the impression in this thread that people can't construct a good argument against reporting social welfare fraud, so are constructing (bad) arguments against other unrelated stuff instead.

    Sounds like a lot to me.
    €3 million on tech support sounds like a lot.
    Point is it was meant to cost between €7-€9 million to set up and depending on who you listen to the figure is between €180-€220 million.

    This thread has turned into something else, It started with the OP pointing out that neighbours and friends were 'ratting' on each other to the state but at the same time allowing corruption from the 'elites' in our society.
    This is the real problem in Ireland, not welfare fraud.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭ilovesleep


    Red_Wake wrote: »
    Except the Mahon Tribunal took place over a number of years.

    Presumably the 300m fraud in social welfare is per annum, and thus is more than 3 times larger than the cost of the Mahon Tribunal.

    Ok so, it's not on par so not a fair comparison. The mahon tribunal was due out for release in 2007 but it was defered due to the then election.
    Five years on there were numerous release dates but it keeps getting defered. How much money was spent throughout the past five years just sitting on that? 5 million? 10 million? More? How much longer are they going to hang onto it? Another 5 years? How much more millions will be spent?

    This thread has shown me that fraud is fraud no matter what. Now, correct me if I'm wrong because that tribunal started god knows when probably when I was a teenager with no political interest but isn't the tribunal a tribunal to look into fraudulent expenses by politicians?

    One group of fraudsters is protected, the rest have to abide by the laws of the land.

    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18 jewett


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    One group of fraudsters is protected, the rest have to abide by the laws of the land.

    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.


    Well said ILS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Doc Ruby wrote: »
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Spinless irish.
    I'm Irish. Are you calling me spineless?

    I think you'll find he called us "spinless", which probably means that unlike the vested interests and ranters, we don't spin the facts......I'd view that as a compliment if it's what he meant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    Ok so, it's not on par so not a fair comparison. The mahon tribunal was due out for release in 2007 but it was defered due to the then election.
    Five years on there were numerous release dates but it keeps getting defered. How much money was spent throughout the past five years just sitting on that? 5 million? 10 million? More? How much longer are they going to hang onto it? Another 5 years? How much more millions will be spent?

    This thread has shown me that fraud is fraud no matter what. Now, correct me if I'm wrong because that tribunal started god knows when probably when I was a teenager with no political interest but isn't the tribunal a tribunal to look into fraudulent expenses by politicians?

    One group of fraudsters is protected, the rest have to abide by the laws of the land.

    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.

    In fairness, what's the penalty for getting caught? A tenner a week of the dole if you're entitled to it? Imprisonment is extremely rare, bit like tax fraud really.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    jewett wrote: »
    This is like something of what would of happened in East Germany.

    You have described only that some people have been reported for committing an act of fraud, by those of us who must pay for their fraud. This is a far cry from reporting people who hold political beliefs that are contrary to government policy. It is not even slightly like the situation that existed in East Germany.

    The vast majority of crimes are detected because somebody reports them. Why should social welfare fraud be any different?


    Z


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 100 ✭✭alandublin33


    Dna evidence proved Maggie did it


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,571 ✭✭✭Red_Wake


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    But if it's 300m per annum than let me ask - how exactly is this in anyway a priority given the state's total deficit? This doesn't matter. Your 'man down the road' gaming the system is not the major issue affecting the fortunes of the country - though it is expedient for politicians to make you believe that he is.

    Look after the pennies, and the pounds will look after themselves.

    Not reporting fraud normalises it, getting rid of it's status as taboo, which can't be a good thing.

    IMO, the public service should always be looking to improve cost efficiency at all times.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    ilovesleep wrote: »
    This thread has shown me that fraud is fraud no matter what.
    It has?
    ilovesleep wrote: »
    People here are all too happy to rat on a neighbour suspected of fraud no matter how small yet sit idly back and allow the mahon tribunal to continue.
    Clearly it hasn't.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    woodoo wrote: »
    PPARS works fine now

    :D:D:D:D After they threw €200m at it. Wasn't it supposed to cost NINE million?

    Ah.......public sector "efficiency" at its best.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    dvpower wrote: »
    Are you saying that just because one part of the public service had a failed IT project, no other part of the public service should be trusted to implement other IT projects?:eek:

    Yes.
    dvpower wrote: »
    There are lots of examples of successful IT projects in the public service, for example, the Revenue ROS and CONTAX systems. Naturally enough, nobody ever hears about the successes.

    At what cost? To the taxpayer?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭Freddie59


    dvpower wrote: »
    Is that good or bad? How much should it cost to run per year?


    I'm getting the impression in this thread that people can't construct a good argument against reporting social welfare fraud, so are constructing (bad) arguments against other unrelated stuff instead.

    Yeah, I suppose we have it for a song at €120 grand a WEEK!:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I dont condone fraud but by and large most people on welfare wheter they are defrauding it or not are not massivly well off. There are people on welfare who have had their esb cut off and for all anyone knows a lot of the reported fraud is someone doing the odd nixer. These people are often on the breadline and some people see fit to report them. The major cause of irish anger has been directed at the lowest in society. After having our children raped by the church, our future deystroyed by the banks and politicians amongst the highest paid in europe people had the most problem with petty fraud. I dont have a problem with people reporting fraud but I do when they have a problem with this over the majority of crap that this country has stomached.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Freddie59 wrote: »
    Yes.
    Well. I wasn't expecting that answer. Bizarre.
    Freddie59 wrote: »
    At what cost? To the taxpayer?
    Why do you ask? You've already decided based on one failure that the PS shouldn't implement any further IT projects.
    Its back to pencil and paper for our public administration I'm afraid:rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 669 ✭✭✭mongoman


    It is the duty of every citizen to report crime especially when we are all paying for it.

    Indeed and the size of the bill should prioritise the immediacy of our response. Recently quite a few privileged criminals have landed some big bills on our laps. But since they seem beyond punishment, small-fry really don't interest me at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Well. I wasn't expecting that answer. Bizarre.


    Why do you ask? You've already decided based on one failure that the PS shouldn't implement any further IT projects.
    Its back to pencil and paper for our public administration I'm afraid:rolleyes:
    The same way as it was back to pencil and paper to vote after they wasted, and continue to waste countless millions on the e-voting machines!;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    mongoman wrote: »
    It is the duty of every citizen to report crime especially when we are all paying for it.

    Indeed and the size of the bill should prioritise the immediacy of our response. Recently quite a few privileged criminals have landed some big bills on our laps. But since they seem beyond punishment, small-fry really don't interest me at all.

    You said it better than I ever could.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    The same way as it was back to pencil and paper to vote after they wasted, and continue to waste countless millions on the e-voting machines!;)
    Not quite sure what point you're attempting to make here.
    "We had a failed voting machine project therefore ....."?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭gerryo777


    dvpower wrote: »
    Not quite sure what point you're attempting to make here.
    "We had a failed voting machine project therefore ....."?

    Just another example of wastage of OUR money in public life/services.

    I didn't hear of anyone being held to account for either of these screwup's.

    The same way that no social welfare officer will be held accountable for paying out more money to people than they were entitled to.

    The same way nobody in public life is ever accountable.

    But hey, let's just get the message out there that everyone on welfare is a scrounger/fraudster and encourage people to watch everything their neighbours are doing/spending and report them if we THINK they have it too easy.

    This is Ireland, my country, in 2012.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    gerryo777 wrote: »
    Just another example of wastage of OUR money in public life/services.

    I didn't hear of anyone being held to account for either of these screwup's.

    The same way that no social welfare officer will be held accountable for paying out more money to people than they were entitled to.

    The same way nobody in public life is ever accountable.

    But hey, let's just get the message out there that everyone on welfare is a scrounger/fraudster and encourage people to watch everything their neighbours are doing/spending and report them if we THINK they have it too easy.

    This is Ireland, my country, in 2012.
    I get it now.
    We haven't been good at making the big fish accountable so we should let the little fish go.

    Makes no sense whatsoever.


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