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Muslims asked to remove headscarves for new Garda card

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    dlofnep wrote: »
    So long as the courtesy is extended to all people, male, or female - regardless of their religion - that they can wear a head-scarf - Then I'll accept such a decision. I won't accept any exceptions based on religious grounds.

    I have no idea about what the law says exactly, but from my understanding as per the article, is that the Women in question are allowed to wear a head scarf. I can't comment beyond that, as I have no clue exactly what the law says.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭Pataman


    hondasam wrote: »
    Why does it have to be us against the rest of the world.



    If I am stopped at the side of the road a guard has no way of checking who I am either.He has to go on the Id I have on me.

    Well then why are they required to carry ID? If they are required it must be effective in showing the garda who they are, not some wishy washy we dont want to upset you, effort.


  • Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭some random drunk


    irish-stew wrote: »
    Are they requried to remove their head scarf for a passport photo?

    No.
    Only head coverings worn for religious reasons are permitted. Hair bands are not allowed.

    source: Department of Foreign Affairs.

    http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=257


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I don't see how it's us against the world. I don't believe that religion is a valid excuse for covering up and having it protected by law. The courtesy should be extended to all, or none.

    You dont care much about religion but for many people their religion means a lot to them. We dont live in a fascist state which strips people of their identity.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,014 ✭✭✭Paddy Samurai


    You can see their face. All women wearing veils have to remove them for the photo. Women wearing headscarves were on a couple of occasions asked to remove them, but won't be asked in future. This is in the article you quoted, I don't understand why you are confused?

    A veil covers a woman's hair, neck and face.
    A headscarf depending on the style may cover some or all of a woman's hair and some or all of her neck.


    Probably the way I read it,thought hijab covered the face.Have a killer hangover this am,so billions of braincells dying as we speak.

    The incidents did not involve women wearing the niqab or full-face veil.

    Does this mean people with there faces covered did'nt have to remove them,but people with headscaves did?.:confused:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,512 ✭✭✭Ellis Dee


    If I understand what "hijab" means, the woman's face is completely visible.

    However, if there is some technical reason for asking a woman wearing a hijab (see here http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_p9bTjaEtKuc/S-zyQwJFkdI/AAAAAAAADuQ/EkqImkNfms8/s1600/hip-hijab.jpg ) to remove it, then by the same logic they should also ask nuns (http://yle.fi/vintti/yle.fi/artonyberg/upload/images/nunna_Kristoduli.jpg ) to do the same.:)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    You dont care much about religion but for many people their religion means a lot to them. We dont live in a fascist state which strips people of their identity.

    No, we don't live in a fascist state. We also don't allow religion as an excuse to bypass laws and regulations. That has nothing to do with fascism I'm afraid. The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 7,941 Mod ✭✭✭✭Yakult


    Religion is funny.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    If there is any reason why a hair covering impedes identification, they should be required to remove them. After all, you get the photo taken in a private booth, no? There's no reason not to take it off for the photo if required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Pataman wrote: »
    Well then why are they required to carry ID? If they are required it must be effective in showing the garda who they are, not some wishy washy we dont want to upset you, effort.

    If they are stopped on the side of the road they will be wearing the Hijab, If the photograph is taken without the hijab then the id is useless, they will look different. How is the guard going to know if it's the same person?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    You dont care much about religion but for many people their religion means a lot to them. We dont live in a fascist state which strips people of their identity.

    nor do we live in a state where one group of people should be exempt from the laws everyone else has to follow


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭Pataman


    I think you get a better impression of the face and head with the scarf/hijab etc removed


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    This should be a secular process. Sick of listening to us pander to this sh*t. It's common f*cking sense. I wouldn't be allowed to come in wearing a paddy hat. What if I happened to believe some stupid sh*t that without my hat I'd be committing mortal sin? Are we going to start pandering to me? Just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean that society has to start pandering to people with daft beliefs. If you don't want to take your headscarf off, then you're not getting the card. Simple as. Same rules for everyone, regardless of colour, race, religion, etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Pataman wrote: »
    I think you get a better impression of the face and head with the scarf/hijab etc removed

    You're right: http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lk54rhGJX31qzxe0uo1_r1_500.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Unavailable for Comment


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

    There is no law, regulation, ruling, directive, instruction, brief, just NOTHING against women covering their hair for religious reasons.

    If you decide to cover your hair nobody can even ask you whether it's for religious reasons as that in itself is discriminatory.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34,419 ✭✭✭✭hondasam


    Pataman wrote: »
    I think you get a better impression of the face and head with the scarf/hijab etc removed

    Yes of course you do but if they are stopped by gardai would they then be asked to remove it every time ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No, we don't live in a fascist state. We also don't allow religion as an excuse to bypass laws and regulations. That has nothing to do with fascism I'm afraid. The law of the land is above all. If you don't respect the law of the land, you're not obliged to live here.

    Not respecting ones region and identity is a form of fascism. People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Ah, I see now the OP was referring to the hijab that only cover the hair and ears.
    This is a requirement in most Muslim countries afaik.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭Peetrik


    As an Atheist I couldn't give a fig about religion, but being intolerant over others beliefs when it has absolutely no bearing on you is just being pedantic. It makes sod all difference to you but it's a big deal to them, let them wear a scarf.

    Besides if a guard can't identify a woman because she is wearing a hair scarf then they should be fired.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,853 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    token101 wrote: »
    This should be a secular process. Sick of listening to us pander to this sh*t. It's common f*cking sense. I wouldn't be allowed to come in wearing a paddy hat. What if I happened to believe some stupid sh*t that without my hat I'd be committing mortal sin? Are we going to start pandering to me? Just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean that society has to start pandering to people with daft beliefs. If you don't want to take your headscarf off, then you're not getting the card. Simple as. Same rules for everyone, regardless of colour, race, religion, etc.

    Normally I'd be against pandering to religions, but these women have been brought up to see a woman's hair the way we would see woman's breasts and other private parts. Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Was'nt too long ago oul wans were knocking around Ireland wearing headscarves. Although that's because they were kept too busy to be worrying about their barnet

    These muslims should be allowed wear it in the photo so long as they have the hijab grafted to their hair. lets test peoples commitment to this premise


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Not respecting ones region and identity is a form of fascism. People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.

    No it isn't.

    So if a Muslim wishes to murder another former-Muslim for apostasy, should we respect that?

    If a Christian wishes to kill their neighbour for working on Sunday, should we respect that?

    Religion isn't something that can automatically command respect I'm afraid. I respect the right of someone to have religious beliefs - but I will treat each belief individually as to whether or not I respect it personally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    Get them off


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Stark wrote: »
    Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.

    I see no harm so tbh


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    token101 wrote: »
    This should be a secular process. Sick of listening to us pander to this sh*t. It's common f*cking sense. I wouldn't be allowed to come in wearing a paddy hat. What if I happened to believe some stupid sh*t that without my hat I'd be committing mortal sin? Are we going to start pandering to me? Just because there's a lot of them, it doesn't mean that society has to start pandering to people with daft beliefs. If you don't want to take your headscarf off, then you're not getting the card. Simple as. Same rules for everyone, regardless of colour, race, religion, etc.

    this, beliefs shouldnt be pandered to, end of story.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 41 Gevie Stee


    It's mad that in their country we'd have to wear a head scarf and follow their rules, yet in our country they refuse to abide by our rules.
    Why do we even let this happen, like the way people are trying to get the catholic religion out of schools and the angelas off RTE, I'm not religious myself but why should this country change what they've always done. When in Rome............


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    There is no law, regulation, ruling, directive, instruction, brief, just NOTHING against women covering their hair for religious reasons.

    If you decide to cover your hair nobody can even ask you whether it's for religious reasons as that in itself is discriminatory.

    Like I said - they can wear whatever they want in a personal capacity. But if they are required to remove it for a photo ID - then they should remove it. As I understand, in this case - they were not and it was a mix-up. But as a general rule of thumb, I believe that everyone should have the same rights a privileges irrespective of their religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,215 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    People shouls have the freedom to follow whatever religion they wish to and identify themselves with it if they wish to without any objections from the state. Its protecting the persons basic rights and freedom.
    How is a request to momentarily remove a headscarf for a photo in contravention of any of the above? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Stark wrote: »
    Normally I'd be against pandering to religions, but these women have been brought up to see a woman's hair the way we would see woman's breasts and other private parts. Asking them to get it out is akin to asking an Irish woman to show more cleavage when having her photo taken.

    which in itself is ridiculous, pandering to a mysoginistic religion shouldnt be encouraged. know your place girls, dont have your hair on show for fear of sending the men into a frenzy.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,853 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    krudler wrote: »
    which in itself is ridiculous, pandering to a mysoginistic religion shouldnt be encouraged. know your place girls, dont have your hair on show for fear of sending the men into a frenzy.

    I think all negative attitudes towards the human body are ridiculous. But we're hardly in a position ourselves to criticise when the mere sight of a nipple is apparently enough to scar a Western child for life. Cultural attitudes towards nudity vary and Ireland itself is probably more conservative than some places. Topless sunbathing is frowned upon here for example whereas no-one blinks an eyelid in France. Asking an Irish woman to walk around half naked as soon as she moves to France just isn't going to work.


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