WW1 Soldiers Traitors?

Fooker · 09-07-2014 11:49pm #1

Hi,

I'm doing some research into the above topic. What historians or journalists or politicians specifically believe or support this idea

Manach · 09-07-2014 11:56pm

Context please?
Irish troops serving in UK, Polish Troops serving in Central or Allied armies, Africans serving Colonial masters, Alstas-Lorraine serving in Imperial Germany ... ?
WWI was not clear cut and dried with many differing sets of alligences made it more a grand European Civil war where one person's traitor was another's patriot.

Fooker · 10-07-2014 12:35am

Manach wrote: »

Context please?
Irish troops serving in UK, Polish Troops serving in Central or Allied armies, Africans serving Colonial masters, Alstas-Lorraine serving in Imperial Germany ... ?
WWI was not clear cut and dried with many differing sets of alligences made it more a grand European Civil war where one person's traitor was another's patriot.

Sorry I meant Irish soldiers who fought for the allies.

It certainly is not cut and dried as with one things. I am just seeking to present both polar opposites as welll as the consensus.

Judgement Day · 10-07-2014 9:18am

Fooker wrote: »

Sorry I meant Irish soldiers who fought for the allies.

It certainly is not cut and dried as with one things. I am just seeking to present both polar opposites as welll as the consensus.

I still don't understand what you're driving at or are you doing a college project? Irish soldiers did not fight for the Allies - there were Irishmen of different allegiances who were all British citizens at that time (pre-Independence) who fought in the uniform of their country - the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This is not revisionism just a plain fact.

tac foley · 10-07-2014 10:03am

In WW1's revised British Army there were eight regiments drawn from the island of Ireland - roughly 50/50 North and South.

Over 49,000 of them died in service.

My grandfather was one of them.

tac

Fooker · 10-07-2014 12:58pm

I am not disputing anything. But, I would like to know who specifically would dispute it? The polar opposite of Kevin Myers for instance?

tac foley · 10-07-2014 3:06pm

Since they were effectively ALL British subjects at that time, any Irish-born person who fought for Germany or its allies - Austro-Hungary or Turkey - would have been classed as a traitor, to Ireland, but to the United Kingdom of which he was a subject.

My grandfather was not a traitor, nor were any of the others who volunteered to fight in the British Army of that time.

What exactly are you actually hoping to get from your question? Are you, perhaps, trying to cause dissention? As JD points out, Ireland at that time was as much part of the UK as the other component countries of Wales, Scotland and England. Are you suggesting that soldiers born in those countries might also be considered traitors to their respective homeland?

tac

Fratton Fred · 10-07-2014 3:47pm

Fooker wrote: »

I am not disputing anything. But, I would like to know who specifically would dispute it? The polar opposite of Kevin Myers for instance?

Rebelheart, but he's been banned.

Santa Cruz · 10-07-2014 5:18pm

Fooker wrote: »

Hi,

I'm doing some research into the above topic. What historians or journalists or politicians specifically believe or support this idea

Irish history is too complex to be able to label those who served in British Forces as traitors. Those who do are invariably the narrow minded extremists with little knowledge of Irish history and base their opinions on a very limited education in that area

tac foley · 10-07-2014 5:30pm

As a couple of us have already pointed out, in vain, it seems, at that time Ireland was part of the UK, so how on earth can its citizens be called traitors for joining the national armed forces?

I think that this thread is going to end badly. Calling MY grandfather a traitor for serving what was then the interests of HIS country is NOT the way to make friends and influence people.

tac, p!ssed off already, or maybe that was the intention of the thread...

tac foley · 10-07-2014 5:33pm

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Irish history is too complex to be able to label those who served in British Forces as traitors. Those who do are invariably the narrow minded extremists with little knowledge of Irish history and base their opinions on a very limited education in that area

Sir, at that time they were NOT the British fForces, they were the Armed Forces of the United Kingdom and British Empire, of which Ireland was then - like it or don't - part.

tac

Jawgap · 10-07-2014 7:20pm

OP, I'd suggest getting a firm grip on the law of treason first, before wading into any debate about whether Irish (Scots, Welsh, English, Indian or even Canadian) soldiers can in any way be construed to have committed an offence.

Even if (and it's a huge stretch to imagine it) an Irish soldier (such as my my great grandfather) can be regarded as something other than a subject of the United Kingdom, the act of taking up arms in the service of 'another' state (if you can find some way to argue Ireland and Britain were at the time constitutionally separate) is not in itself treasonous.

The relevant legislation in force at the time is the Treason Act 1351 - and if you want to explore the issue further you do worse than look at some of the material published in relation to the trial of Roger Casement.......

Rex v. Casement
Robert Aitken, Litigation, Vol. 23, No. 4, pp. 51-54, 71-75 (available on JSTOR)

Fooker · 10-07-2014 8:12pm

People seem quick to jump to conclusions. My own Great Grandfather fought and was gassed during the war. I do not personally believe the soldiers to be traitors. I asked a question, I did not express any personal views...

I know of figures who would think of them as patriots, I am only seeking to find opinions of those who would hold the opposite of that view?

Jawgap · 10-07-2014 8:14pm

Maybe if you named the figures in question and linked to some of their articles it might easier to see what the argument 'in favour' is?

johnny_doyle · 10-07-2014 8:43pm

are you using "Traitor" in the legal sense (a threat to the monarch and his/her family or "rights" e.g. being a republican in 18th Century France or America or a Chartist in 19th Century England) or from the point of view of someone holding a different opinion or political persuasion (e.g. Tom Clarke would consider Bulmer Hobson a traitor for voting for Redmond representatives at the helm of the Irish Volunteers)?

Are you only interested in soldiers as opposed to members of, for example, the Royal Navy or the RFC/RAF?

Fooker · 10-07-2014 8:54pm

I think I asked a pretty simple question people. I never asked anyone for their opinions on the matter? I am not trying to start a debate, although people seem intent on arguing with themselves...

tac foley · 10-07-2014 9:06pm

You asked if anybody thought that Irishmen who fought in WW1 were traitors.

Traitors to what, exactly?

There can be very few, if indeed there are any at all, of the folks who post here on this Military forum - or even the rest of the entire Boards.ie for that matter - who did NOT have male family members serving in the Armed Forces of the UK and British Empire in WW1. Many people here are, or were serving military personnel in the service of their country, whichever country that might be.

Eleven of my relatives served in WW1, one died and the other ten were all wounded - five were gassed as well. Only one was Irish - the one who died.

You've come to the wrong place, Sir, if you are asking who thinks or thought of him and his ilk as 'traitors'.

And if you are not asking for 'opinions' but hard evidence of accusations of 'treason', perhaps you ought to be looking in the Republican-flavoured newspapers of the day.

tac

Jawgap · 10-07-2014 9:15pm

Fooker wrote: »

I think I asked a pretty simple question people. I never asked anyone for their opinions on the matter? I am not trying to start a debate, although people seem intent on arguing with themselves...

No, they weren't traitors. That's my opinion.

Neither were those who served in the Boer War - my great grandad served in both and had the 'good sense' to get wounded at First Mons.

The people who hold a contrary opinion are probably the same ones who refer to Fusiliers' Arch in more derogatory terms

If you find people are being a bit prickly maybe it's because you keep referring to 'figures' who hold a different view and you've yet to either name them or link to some material where they articulate and explain the rationale behind their views.

Fooker · 10-07-2014 9:25pm

I asked a question, I sought assistance, I never asked for opinions. I have stated that it is not my opinion that these men were traitors.

If I asked who would hold the view that the Holocaust did not happen, the answer would be David Irving. It does not mean that I would be a Holocaust denier or asking people what they think. It is asking a question.

I. Asked. A. Question.

tac foley · 10-07-2014 9:28pm

Soldiers like I was and others still are are notoriously prickly when the word treason is bandied about as though it was simply a matter of 'opinion'. When a country, nation or conglomerate nation of united countries - in this case the UK - goes to war with another nation, those who choose to go fight for the enemy are the traitors. That is why the offence of treason is described as actually 'Committing an ACT of Treason' by physically doing it.

Or have you somehow misunderstood the significance of that, in spite of your Olympic-quality back-pedalling?

As Jawgap notes, albeit in a more genteel fashion than me, please put up or shut up.

And please, less of the puerile 'word separation for effect'. We might be older than you are - of that I'm pretty much certain - but as yet most of us here don't need the help of reading words one at a time - I find it insulting in the extreme.

Yes, you asked a question, one that seems not to have occurred to anybody I've ever met before in my life. The Government of the Republic of Ireland has recently spent a real fortune of your money providing a physical memorial and on-line data-base of those Irishmen who were killed or are still missing from WW1.

Surely that tells you something about the way that the Irish felt about their menfolk?

tac

Fooker · 10-07-2014 9:36pm

I. Asked. A. Question.

I. Did. Not. Make. A. Statement.

I do not see where the issue is? I have said that my own Grandfather fought in the Great War, I have stated I do not believe they were traitors. I have not written anything to suggest otherwise.

Grand, you have your opinion, you are entitled to it, but I did not ask for it. If you cannot answer my SIMPLE question, why are you responding?

Have you read anything that I have written other than the words "WW1" and "Traitor"?

tac foley · 10-07-2014 9:39pm

You, Sir or Madam, are really getting up my nose.

I'm going before I write something that might get me banned.

tac

Jawgap · 10-07-2014 9:43pm

Can I suggest you read up o the law of treason?

Then maybe consider the implications of its application - if the men who signed up at Redmond's urging were traitors, against what or whom were they committing treason? And what of those who signed up from Ulster - were they treasonous? And those who participated in the Curragh 'Mutiny'?

If all such soldiers are traitors where does that leave people like Tom Barry and Emmet Dalton? If they committed treason by serving in the 'Crown' forces then one or other of them is also guilty of treason post-independence given they pursued diametrically opposed courses of action.

Fooker · 10-07-2014 9:43pm

tac foley wrote: »

You, Sir or Madam, are really getting up my nose.

I'm going before I write something that might get me banned.

tac

Sir,

If you can quote and explain any issue that you may have, I would be happy to address it. The courtesy you have not given to my QUESTION.

- F

marieholmfan · 10-07-2014 9:43pm

France,England and Russia were the entente. Germany and Austria were the Allies.

Fooker · 10-07-2014 9:46pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Can I suggest you read up o the law of treason?

Then maybe consider the implications of its application - if the men who signed up at Redmond's urging were traitors, against what or whom were they committing treason? And what of those who signed up from Ulster - were they treasonous? And those who participated in the Curragh 'Mutiny'?

If all such soldiers are traitors where does that leave people like Tom Barry and Emmet Dalton? If they committed treason by serving in the 'Crown' forces then one or other of them is also guilty of treason post-independence given they pursued diametrically opposed courses of action.

I am not asking what the definition of treason is or stating that these men were traitors. I am wondering WHO would try to argue as such? This is not a reflection of any sympathy or personal opinion held.

marieholmfan · 10-07-2014 9:47pm

There . are . no . mainstream. . irish political figures who described Irish ww1 veterans as traitors. I am sure that Ailtirì na Aisèrigh would have openly called the traitors. I seem to remember Constance Markievicz describing the women who heckled the volunteers as traitors wives.

Jawgap · 10-07-2014 9:50pm

Fooker wrote: »

I. Asked. A. Question.

I. Did. Not. Make. A. Statement.

I do not see where the issue is? I have said that my own Grandfather fought in the Great War, I have stated I do not believe they were traitors. I have not written anything to suggest otherwise.

Grand, you have your opinion, you are entitled to it, but I did not ask for it. If you cannot answer my SIMPLE question, why are you responding?

Have you read anything that I have written other than the words "WW1" and "Traitor"?

I'm calling shenanigans on this post.

Looking at some of your other posts in the NUIG threads - I reckon that for your grandfather to have served in WW1 you're grandad must have had your Dad / Mam at an advanced age and he/she likewise must have had you at an advanced age.......or you're an old fart (bit like Tac, but without the experience;) )

I find it hard to believe someone in their early 20s had a grandfather who served in WW1.

Fooker · 10-07-2014 9:55pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I'm calling shenanigans on this post.

Looking at some of your other posts in the NUIG threads - I reckon that for your grandfather to have served in WW1 you're grandad must have had your Dad / Mam at an advanced age and he/she likewise must have had you at an advanced age.......or you're an old fart (bit like Tac, but without the experience;) )

I find it hard to believe someone in their early 20s had a grandfather who served in WW1.

My apologies, that was a typo. It was my great grandfather which I believe I stated in a previous post.

Jawgap · 10-07-2014 10:15pm

Apology accepted and I withdraw my earlier shenanigans call.

Can I suggest that the reason you are struggling to find anyone credible arguing that the soldiers were traitors is because it's an unsustainable argument - you can't betray a country that doesn't exist.

I dare say, however, that you may get some arguments in favour if the question was asked in a political rather than a history forum.

Judgement Day · 10-07-2014 10:17pm

Fooker wrote: »

Hi,

I'm doing some research into the above topic. What historians or journalists or politicians specifically believe or support this idea

It would have helped if you could have given the thread a less confusing title and then posted an intelligible first post.

WW1 Soldiers Traitors?

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