Words, sayings and their etymologies in Ireland

Dionysus · 16-09-2011 12:22pm #1

This could go in the Irish, English or a Hiberno-English fora, but it's probably best here. It's inspired by Kathryn Thomas's interview with Diarmaid Ó Muirithe on RTÉ Radio 1 yesterday, Thursday (starts at 8.48).

I caught part of this while driving, but didn't get the guy's name. A check of the RTÉ Radio 1 website a moment ago reveals him to be Diarmaid Ó Muirithe, the guy who has written the 'Words We Use' column in The Irish Times for decades. I listened to the whole show and I could be listening to him for days. He was promoting his new book, Words We Don't Use Much Anymore

Is was a fascinating interview as Ó Muirithe did a verbal tour of the country talking about the words and their etymology. For instance, Thomas was asking him about words from her native Carlow and he recounted going into a pub there as a young fella and asking for a lemonade and an old man started talking to him leaving with the poignant advice "Fan óg!".

There's loads of old words I'd still hear around - "ceolán", which according to Ó Dónaill means an 'incessant talker of nonsense', being one of my favourite. 'You're an awful ceolán!" I got it from somebody from Mayo. Gossin, from Norman-Irish garsún, meaning young lad is another one.

Ó Muirithe was speaking with passion about how dialects have been destroyed by "standardisation" and ignorant teachers and this left us a less colourful society. In my own experience I remember a kid in my class who was regularly jeered by the teacher because he used to say "I do be" (and its variants). This reflected the ignorance of the teacher because, as most of us now know, 'do be' is from the perfectly normal habitual present tense of the Irish verb 'Bí' to indicate something which happens regularly. It has a very useful and clear meaning. In Ireland, it's not "bad English" no matter how much ignorant people say otherwise. The only "bad English" (or "bad French", etc) is English (or French, etc) which is not clear. A language does not have to be "standardised" in order to be "good", and most linguists would agree with that.

One of the most interesting persons I've ever heard was a Wexford man singing a Yola song. Yola was the English dialect spoken by descendants of the English settlers who came with the Normans to Wexford, or more specifically to the baronies of Forth and Bargy there. It was on an old UCD video made about Hiberno-English and other cultural vignettes. I can't find that guy singing it on YouTube, unfortunately.

Anyway, I'm fascinated by etymologies and words and sayings used across Ireland. What words and sayings have you heard/do you still hear and do you know where they come from?

Snickers Man · 16-09-2011 5:37pm

Interesting topic. On a slightly related one, have you ever seen the wonderful book entitled "How the Irish invented slang"? which suggests that many popular slang terms and words in American English have gaelic roots.

I think it is generally accepted that the term "to dig" meaning to empathise with or to "get" comes from tuig meaning to understand.

But other ones that caught my eye were:

Gee Whiz! from Dia uasal meaning noble God or Lord God

Spick and span from spiaca 's ban shiny and white

Smashing (meaning "very good") from Is maith sin

And my favourite "to put the kibosh on something" (meaning to destroy it) from an cap bais or the death cap, the thing the judge put on his head when he was sentencing you to the drop.

Not quite the same but related.

slowburner · 16-09-2011 5:53pm

Dionysus wrote: »

This could go in the Irish, English or a Hiberno-English fora, but it's probably best here. It's inspired by Kathryn Thomas's interview with Diarmaid Ó Muirithe on RTÉ Radio 1 yesterday, Thursday (starts at 8.48).

I caught part of this while driving, but didn't get the guy's name. A check of the RTÉ Radio 1 website a moment ago reveals him to be Diarmaid Ó Muirithe, the guy who has written the 'Words We Use' column in The Irish Times for decades. I listened to the whole show and I could be listening to him for days. He was promoting his new book, Words We Don't Use Much Anymore

Is was a fascinating interview as Ó Muirithe did a verbal tour of the country talking about the words and their etymology. For instance, Thomas was asking him about words from her native Carlow and he recounted going into a pub there as a young fella and asking for a lemonade and an old man started talking to him leaving with the poignant advice "Fan óg!".

There's loads of old words I'd still hear around - "ceolán", which according to Ó Dónaill means an 'incessant talker of nonsense', being one of my favourite. 'You're an awful ceolán!" I got it from somebody from Mayo. Gossin, from Norman-Irish garsún, meaning young lad is another one.

Ó Muirithe was speaking with passion about how dialects have been destroyed by "standardisation" and ignorant teachers and this left us a less colourful society. In my own experience I remember a kid in my class who was regularly jeered by the teacher because he used to say "I do be" (and its variants). This reflected the ignorance of the teacher because, as most of us now know, 'do be' is from the perfectly normal habitual present tense of the Irish verb 'Bí' to indicate something which happens regularly. It has a very useful and clear meaning. In Ireland, it's not "bad English" no matter how much ignorant people say otherwise. The only "bad English" (or "bad French", etc) is English (or French, etc) which is not clear. A language does not have to be "standardised" in order to be "good", and most linguists would agree with that.

One of the most interesting persons I've ever heard was a Wexford man singing a Yola song. Yola was the English dialect spoken by descendants of the English settlers who came with the Normans to Wexford, or more specifically to the baronies of Forth and Bargy there. It was on an old UCD video made about Hiberno-English and other cultural vignettes. I can't find that guy singing it on YouTube, unfortunately.

Anyway, I'm fascinated by etymologies and words and sayings used across Ireland. What words and sayings have you heard/do you still hear and do you know where they come from?

I've heard ceólán used too in Connemara. I always liked the word figuring that it has its roots in ceó (fog).
I've heard ditches referred to as 'grikes' in Wexford.
Locally the other day, I heard this command; "Put the animals in through the other shed, you may".
I couldn't agree more that the way English is spoken in Ireland has become pasteurised and that we lose a certain richness with it.

dave2pvd · 16-09-2011 8:20pm

Snickers Man wrote: »

Interesting topic. On a slightly related one, have you ever seen the wonderful book entitled "How the Irish invented slang"? which suggests that many popular slang terms and words in American English have gaelic roots.

How ironic that quite a few idioms/slang terms in Ireland now seem to come from the US. In particular, from baseball:

step up (to the plate)
in the ballpark
right off the bat
three strikes and you're out
throw a curveball
big leagues
heavy hitter
whole new ball game
cover all the bases
out of left field

Apparently in common use in England too..

Anyway, back on topic....

mikemac · 16-09-2011 8:44pm

You left out the most common one

I'll be pm'ing you later to "touch base"

Not sure if it's definitely the case but I was told in school that smithereen comes from the Irish work smitheriní or maybe some earlier version before Modern Irish

This good if mysterious Word has worried etymologists for ages. While a smith's hammer could certainly blast many objects to smithereens, it apparently has nothing to do with today's word. Now evidence indicates that it is a simple borrowing from Irish Gaelic smidiriin, the diminutive of smiodar "a small fragment".

fontanalis · 17-09-2011 12:44am

What about the word scar/skar for a shallowing river crossing at the head of a pool (I suppose much like a ford)? It's used in certain areas in Donegal; I heard it may be Norse/Viking in origin, has anyone heard of it?

slowburner · 17-09-2011 9:02am

fontanalis wrote: »

What about the word scar/skar for a shallowing river crossing at the head of a pool (I suppose much like a ford)? It's used in certain areas in Donegal; I heard it may be Norse/Viking in origin, has anyone heard of it?

Haven't heard it - but could it come from esker/eiscir?

owenc · 17-09-2011 5:07pm

dave2pvd wrote: »

How ironic that quite a few idioms/slang terms in Ireland now seem to come from the US. In particular, from baseball:

step up (to the plate)
in the ballpark
right off the bat
three strikes and you're out
throw a curveball
big leagues
heavy hitter
whole new ball game
cover all the bases
out of left field

Apparently in common use in England too..

Anyway, back on topic....

Yes american words are starting to evolve into the english used here. Look at schedule everyone uses that version but apparently the correct way is shedhule.. etc and in my school they told us that we had to spell sulphur like sulfur because the government had changed the rules or something but it just shows that americanisms are working the way into our english.

Cathaoirleach · 17-09-2011 5:23pm

Anyone have any Irish loanwords still in use?

fáinne > fawney > phony (from Irish immigrants in America flogging fake rings)

sluagh-ghairm > slogan (slew call / war cry)

triubhas > trouse > trousers

fontanalis · 17-09-2011 6:44pm

slowburner wrote: »

Haven't heard it - but could it come from esker/eiscir?

Possibly, but I'd associate esker with a bigger feature (and more about ground level) than the shallow/broken area in a river pool.

slowburner · 17-09-2011 8:20pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Possibly, but I'd associate esker with a bigger feature (and more about ground level) than the shallow/broken area in a river pool.

Is a skar/scar a riffle, then?

fontanalis · 17-09-2011 9:34pm

slowburner wrote: »

Is a skar/scar a riffle, then?

Yes, that's the best way to describe it.

Foghladh · 23-09-2011 12:52am

My granny always had a saying when she was describing a happy person, 'As gay as a nóinín'. It used to crack us up as kids and I only found out years later that a 'nóinín' was the irish for 'daisy'. A few of her friends would use the same expression but I haven't heard it used in a good many years. Well, except amongst my siblings, we still trot it out just to keep it around. It's become an inside joke by now.

The other thing that I used to hear was from my grandads generation. That was the way thay always substituted the 'wh' in a word for a 'f' sound. 'What' became 'Fot' and 'Where' became 'Fare'. It still prevails with some people of my age

pedroeibar1 · 23-09-2011 10:06am

@fontanalis - Is Skar/Sker not from the Norse for a rocky point? As in the placename Skerries?
‘Do that post haste’ is a remnant from the Bianconi days.
‘Snazzy’ is possibly from the Irish ‘snas’, polish.
‘Slapper’ is possibly from the Irish ‘slaparach’, a slovenly woman.
‘As ignorant as the kishabrogues’(cishean broga = basket of boots)

Quite a few taken from nautical language:
Taken aback. Above board, The bitter end. In a brace of shakes. By and large. A clean slate. Copper bottomed. Cut and run. The devil to pay. At loggerheads. Plane sailing. Running the gauntlet. Show a leg. Son of a gun. Skylarking. No room to swing a cat. Three sheets in the wind. To toe the line.

I have been late for innumerable meetings because I remained in the car listening to Terry Dolan on the radio. His presence is sadly missed.

P.

trad · 23-09-2011 10:15am

Have a look at Terry Dolan's "Dictionary of Hiberno English".

Makes a very good read

slowburner · 23-09-2011 11:32am

Foghladh wrote: »

My granny always had a saying when she was describing a happy person, 'As gay as a nóinín'. It used to crack us up as kids and I only found out years later that a 'nóinín' was the irish for 'daisy'. A few of her friends would use the same expression but I haven't heard it used in a good many years. Well, except amongst my siblings, we still trot it out just to keep it around. It's become an inside joke by now.

The other thing that I used to hear was from my grandads generation. That was the way thay always substituted the 'wh' in a word for a 'f' sound. 'What' became 'Fot' and 'Where' became 'Fare'. It still prevails with some people of my age

I used to hear this 'f' for 'wh' in Connemara - ' Fwhy wouldn't you?' is still part of the spoken lore in Galway city. It's easier to say than type phonetically.

fontanalis · 27-09-2011 5:23pm

What about the prefix Meena (more or less means hillside) in place names? It's fairly popular in Donegal, does it appear anywhere else?

P. Breathnach · 27-09-2011 6:13pm

trad wrote: »

Have a look at Terry Dolan's "Dictionary of Hiberno English".

Makes a very good read

Agreed. An earlier work in the same vein is "English as We Speak it in Ireland" by P.W. Joyce.

Cathaoirleach · 27-09-2011 7:17pm

fontanalis wrote: »

What about the prefix Meena (more or less means hillside) in place names? It's fairly popular in Donegal, does it appear anywhere else?

mín na x = flat, smooth, field of x

also in Gaelic mìn and Welsh mân

There's a list of Meena placenames here (in the dropdown box) with more info, most in Donegal.

I'd also be interested to know why it's so popular in that part of Ireland!

Cathaoirleach · 02-01-2012 5:11am

Does the English slug/slugging (drink) come from the Irish slog/slogadh (swallow)?

dubhthach · 03-01-2012 1:25am

slowburner wrote: »

I used to hear this 'f' for 'wh' in Connemara - ' Fwhy wouldn't you?' is still part of the spoken lore in Galway city. It's easier to say than type phonetically.

This is why Whiskey is reborrowed into Irish as Fuisce

Uisce (Beatha) -> Whiskey -> Fuisce

Of course other then under lentition you can't have an initial v or w in Irish
Bád -> a Bhád (his boat -- w sound caused by rules of lentition == bh)

slightly related in Proto-Celtic however it was possible to have initial V this mutated to a F in Proto-Goidelic. As a result:

Veni (Veniconnes = tribe on ptomley map)-> Fene-> Fian (Fianna = plural) -- fénnid = member of Fian

In proto-Brythonic it mutated to gw

Thus:

Vindos -> Fionn / Gwen (Irish / Welsh)

Ozymandiaz · 03-01-2012 1:48am

Dubhthach, can you or anyone else explain the English Whiddy Island and the Irish Oileán Faoide. Why did the Irish 'f' become 'wh' in English? Are there any other examples of this?

dubhthach · 03-01-2012 9:18am

Ozymandiaz wrote: »

Dubhthach, can you or anyone else explain the English Whiddy Island and the Irish Oileán Faoide. Why did the Irish 'f' become 'wh' in English? Are there any other examples of this?

Well not hugely familiar with Whiddy Island (other then the explosion). But it could be due to the f undergoing eclipsis (úru). There are two forms of "initial mutation" in Irish -- these are lentition (marked by h eg. b -> bh, c -> ch) and eclipsis ( c -> gc, f -> bhf)

In the case of f it would be eclipsised to w/v (broad/slender) written as bhf

Though I don't think the Faoide in "Oileán Faoide" would undergo eclipsis so it could be due to mistranslation or local dialectial features. Irish can have a "off-glide" sound that sort of sounds like a w after broad consonant. Look at how "Fine Gael" is pronounced by a fluent speaker. Or the word Buí where it sounds like the B has a w like quality.

This is probably what you are seeing with Faoide. Of course the final e in it would be unstressed. By default unstressed vowels were spelt as a y, thus baile -> Bally, from what I recall reading the y was just meant to represent an unstressed vowel and not to be pronounced as a ee sound.

Ozymandiaz · 03-01-2012 4:06pm

Dubhthach, thanks for taking the time and making the effort to reply. Your comments are food for thought and appreciated. I was thinking along similar lines regarding the effect of 'urú' and 'séimhiú' on the Irish name Faoide which is attested at least as far back as 1618. P.W. Joyce's 'Irish Names of Places' and 'Irish Local Names Explained' makes no mention of Whiddy/Faoide. I have wondered if there is any phonetic connection with the English words 'wherry' and 'ferry'. Whiddy was one of the first places in the south-west to provide English speaking seafarers/tradres/pirates with an operational base. I will have to investigate more.

Thanks again.

gaiscioch · 15-06-2014 9:00pm

Somebody talking last night said he was "shedding a tear for Parnell" earlier that day, to which the older people laughed. I had never heard it before (it means he was urinating).

Does anybody know its origin, and does it indicate a Pro-Parnellite or anti-Parnellite stance originally (or any at all)?

gaiscioch · 15-06-2014 9:23pm

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

fáinne > fawney > phony (from Irish immigrants in America flogging fake rings)

I know a 95-year-old lady in the Comeragh mountains, who was born into a native Irish speaking family and community there, who uses the word "fawney" to mean a kiss. Not sure of the English spelling. The Irish for this meaning must be different from fáinne?

tac foley · 15-06-2014 10:45pm

My dad always used to call a junk store or bric-a-brac stall in a market by the descriptive the word 'fudgey/ies'.

He had been a native speaker as a young man but had sadly lost most of it.

tac

nuac · 16-06-2014 9:11am

dubhthach wrote: »

This is why Whiskey is reborrowed into Irish as Fuisce

Uisce (Beatha) -> Whiskey -> Fuisce

Of course other then under lentition you can't have an initial v or w in Irish
Bád -> a Bhád (his boat -- w sound caused by rules of lentition == bh)

slightly related in Proto-Celtic however it was possible to have initial V this mutated to a F in Proto-Goidelic. As a result:

Veni (Veniconnes = tribe on ptomley map)-> Fene-> Fian (Fianna = plural) -- fénnid = member of Fian

In proto-Brythonic it mutated to gw

Thus:

Vindos -> Fionn / Gwen (Irish / Welsh)

In the West whiskey from a legit source on which duty was paid was called "parliament", as opposed to the local distillation "poitín"

nuac · 16-06-2014 9:23am

Good thread.

Many old sayings and words being obliterated by the growth of mid-atlantic culture.

Along with the books mentioned above Bernard Share's Slanguage - Dictionary of Irish Language is a great resource.

bodun · 16-06-2014 12:58pm

gaiscioch wrote: »

I know a 95-year-old lady in the Comeragh mountains, who was born into a native Irish speaking family and community there, who uses the word "fawney" to mean a kiss. Not sure of the English spelling. The Irish for this meaning must be different from fáinne?

When I was growing up in south Kilkenny, my grandmother used the word "fawndy" to mean kiss. As in, we would have to give her a "fawndy" before going to bed as children. I presume we are using the same word just saying it slightly differently? I always thought it came from being fond of someone.

gaiscioch · 12-07-2014 2:41pm

wrote:

This could go in the Irish, English or a Hiberno-English fora, but it's probably best here. It's inspired by Kathryn Thomas's interview with Diarmaid Ó Muirithe on RTÉ Radio 1 yesterday, Thursday (starts at 8.48)

Tá Diarmaid imithe ar shlí na fírinne i Vín ar maidin/Diarmaid passed away this morning in Vienna. His contribution to etymology, Hiberno-English, and Irish folklore (particularly of Wexford) was absolutely enormous, if not unique. For decades his Irish Times columns gave all his readers enlightenment, cultural appreciation and entertainment. As a child I loved his columns and asking my parents about funny words they've heard. Then, as now, good humoured debates would follow and dictionaries would be consulted. Diarmaid's work would always be among those books. Ní bheidh a leithéid arís ann.

Words, sayings and their etymologies in Ireland

Comments