Where are all the IT jobs??

oneshot2shots · 22-01-2014 8:22pm #1

I recently finished my conversion masters in UCD and have been looking for employment since Early January.

I am aiming for a software development position in java.I have a couple of decent projects and think I have a good knowledge in relation to other graduates. Plan was to take as many interviews as possible for experience if nothing else. I started out about 4 CV's a day, targeted to the role. Got nothing back and then really started exaggerating my skills, still no luck. I'm thinking of just resorting to listing every single requirement in the position simply in order to get interview experience.

Initially I thought that maybe I was up against much better candidates(which I obviously am) but the guys(my former classmates) with 1:1's can't secure an interview either. Not a job, an interview.

Are new graduates being blacked out of the market?? People I know from undergrad in finance positions keep telling me that there are tonnes of java positions in their companies. I have two interviews just from pull. But I am certain if I put in my CV without knowing someone in there it would go straight to the trash. Web development seems a little more open and I can get responses, but I don't really have a portfolio to show. One recruiter told me that I've entered the right industry then told me I would find it very difficult to find a job.

Every job also seems to need .NET/Sharepoint, and these are (to my knowledge) only done in BIS and a few other courses. Surely a computer science grad could be expected to pick up the technical aspects of .NET v BIS grads?

I don't get it, is there a shortage of jave position so isin't there? Think I may have been a year late getting in.

Colonel Panic · 22-01-2014 8:34pm

There are loads of development jobs out there, but only if you have experience.

Maybe get feedback on your CV and cover letters? What sort of jobs are you applying for?

Do you have any projects that show you can actually make a finished application? You mention that you don't have a portfolio. Why not? Graduates who apply for jobs where I work with nothing to show for it but a college qualification are already at a disadvantage.

22-01-2014 9:13pm

You will not get a job in it without contacts, this is where it's all about, forget degrees, masters , while it's certainly beneficial it's all about experience.

There are loads of jobs in all aspects of it, unfortunately you'll most likely have to work as a contractor, going through an umbrella company and having to suffer no pay for holidays etc, no rights what so ever, this is life in it today for many people.

Look for the contract jobs, you build up your experience and in a few years you might have a permanent job, it is a tough industry to work in, pity the civil service are not all on contract. Teachers included, at least they wouldn't have to be paid for 6 months holidays.

Jim2007 · 22-01-2014 9:34pm

You have been early Jauary... You'd want to give people a chance CV for a start!

oneshot2shots · 22-01-2014 9:43pm

I have a portfolio, just not a portfolio of websites.Have two android applications and one java application and am currently working on another, trying to focus on a software development job.

Seems contacts are the way to go in the Republic of Nepotism.Teachers haha, not to mention the amount of money we'd save on the council. A few years of contract work is a pretty bleak picture and not what the one i was shown a year and a half ago. There is a bit of work to be done on oDesk however and I apply for what I can.

I'm still hopeful, it has only been 3 weeks I suppose.

cython · 22-01-2014 9:58pm

oneshot2shots wrote: »

I have a portfolio, just not a portfolio of websites.Have two android applications and one java application and am currently working on another, trying to focus on a software development job.

Seems contacts are the way to go in the Republic of Nepotism.Teachers haha, not to mention the amount of money we'd save on the council. A few years of contract work is a pretty bleak picture and not what the one i was shown a year and a half ago. There is a bit of work to be done on oDesk however and I apply for what I can.

I'm still hopeful, it has only been 3 weeks I suppose.

Are these projects just ones that you have on a local machine and/or on your own phone? Is there any possibility of you being able to publish them on GitHub/BitBucket/Sourceforge/etc. and then being able to provide these details on your CV? Otherwise there's a large element of taking you at your word, and it doesn't really distinguish you.

Additionally, expecting to have your job within a month is being a bit overly optimistic, as has been mentioned. It can take time for your CV to be reviewed and to filter through, and if you are applying for jobs that have a high applicant rate, it could take that long to arrange a batch of first round interviews alone.

Finally, you say that you want a development job, but potentially you could work on either broadening the projects you have done, or narrowing your search. For example, android app development is in many ways quite different to (for example) JEE development, and while one can be learnt coming from the other, it would be no harm to have done projects in both to prove it if you haven't narrowed your focus.

Finally, while your eventual goal may be development, some companies that work in complex industries may be hesitant to take a new grad in who has little track record, and no industry knowledge, so sometimes a detour can be necessary/advisable, e.g. entering through a support role to learn the business area, and transitioning to development. Perhaps not the ideal scenario, but there are companies that operate in this manner reasonably routinely.

smcelhinney · 23-01-2014 12:17pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

You have been early Jauary... You'd want to give people a chance CV for a start!

Huh?

Freddio · 23-01-2014 12:25pm

I wouldn't bother with oDesk or any of those kind of sites - you will regret it.

Also I doubt you will be able to walk into contract work a a graduate as the idea of a contractor is some who is an expert and can do stuff their permenants cant.

I do realise that it has spanned into a business model but you need to be well seasoned at what your doing.

In terms of getting experience that would look good on a cv, have a look at charity work (coding not street begging) or this new Code for Ireland initiative.

stevenmu · 23-01-2014 12:33pm

This may be ignorance on my part, but if I was reviewing graduate CVs I'd have a strong preference for people who had done a 4 year degree over a conversion masters.

As mentioned, the way to swing that back in your favour is to have a portfolio of work that you have done. One suggestion I'd make for that is to make it easy to review, if someone has to sort through 20 CVs they can't spend an hour installing your apps or downloading your code. IMHO a simple blog with some code snippets, and some thoughts on the lessons you learned would be a good idea.

I'm still hopeful, it has only been 3 weeks I suppose.

It can easily take a month or two before you hear back so don't get too discouraged yet.

everdead.ie · 23-01-2014 1:12pm

You should be able to get the institute that did your course to review your CV and get ideas on if it needs to be improved etc.

Also try to apply for "Graduate" jobs at the moment the biggest problem is experience every company seems o want someone with mid level experience because that is where the massive shortfall is.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 1:18pm

stevenmu wrote: »

This may be ignorance on my part, but if I was reviewing graduate CVs I'd have a strong preference for people who had done a 4 year degree over a conversion masters.

Same here, however good portfolio projects go a long way.

oneshot2shots: I'm a java developer with over 5 years experience and over 10 years of experience in general IT. a few points:

1. You are a fresh conversion grad that has only been looking for a few weeks, this will take time accept that.

2. Redact your personal information here and post your CV, or PM me if you dont want it on a public forum and I'll give you some feedback.

L.Jenkins · 23-01-2014 1:34pm

Hey OP

I'm an experienced engineer and I find it hard to gain employment. Don't let that depress you though. What you should do is, look at the technologies required by Companies and disregard the years of experience needed. From there, try your best to learn these technologies and build a portfolio from there.

As for .NET, start with C#. There is a lot of similarities with Java, making the language easier for you to pick up. With that, you can then go down the road of learning Java and C# technologies, such as J2EE, MVC, ASP.NET etc.

Don't be afraid to branch out either into the area of Scripting languages like Python and Database Technologies. You actually need to show potential employers that you're willing to make the effort.

Making the effort to me, is worth more than experience in some instances. I've often worked with People who've had the experience, but couldn't be ársed to do the work. So learning and willingness to learn is key also.

not1but4 · 23-01-2014 3:03pm

oneshot2shots wrote: »

I'm still hopeful, it has only been 3 weeks I suppose.

When I finished my 4 year Computer Science degree back in 2010 I was waiting 6 months before I actually got my first job.

Then when I wanted to move on from that development role after 2.5 years it took me 3 months of looking before I actually found a new job.

+1 on starting off in support and then progressing to development.

jimmycrackcorm · 23-01-2014 3:04pm

oneshot2shots wrote: »

I recently finished my conversion masters in UCD and have been looking for employment since Early January.

Does that imply your primary degree isn't S/W related - you refered to finance? That could be a big problem. You would be competing against full CS grads.

Also even someone like myself with experience dating back to when CPUs where only 4Mhz would find it takes circa 3 months to change

longhalloween · 23-01-2014 3:07pm

I recently went to a talk about graduate opportunities, and was told that without an online portfolio (github) a software grad is seriously limited.
Basically, they want to know what you were doing outside of college, more than what your degree is.

oneshot2shots · 23-01-2014 4:09pm

Thanks this advice(s?) is exactly what i'm looking for. Was stupid not even uploading the projects I do have to Git.

Just one thing, there seems to be the default view that the conversion masters is way inferior to a 4 year undergrad. I don't think that's quite the case as:

(i) Its an 18 month intense conversion course v a 36 month undergrad, not one year v four years.
(ii) If the first couple of years were anything like my legal undergrad very little is learned.(When going in the free rooms in UCD to study it just seemed like all the undergrads played online games all the time).
(iii) Friends in my course who demonstrated for undergrad modules says a lot of modules were impractical and of little workplace use, as well as being of a lower standard. The conversion course focused on c,c++,java, Android, SQL, Databases,Info Security, Web Development, Metasearch Engine Project,VMware.
(iv) People doing the conversion masters are generally older, more mature, and more focused on getting high grades.

Would love to know if anyone has any interview knowledge of how conversion students(not springboard, diplomas etc) fare v undergrads in general?? Think there is a stigma with conversion courses that because it is a conversion course the candidate may not be suitable for computer science as he/she did the conversion just to get a job v an undergrad who is passionate about the subject.(which is actually seems justified as I write it). I know its pretty arbitrary, but how many projects would be an acceptable standard for a typical java role?? With 2 Android and 2 java apps is it better to build more or to focus on other languages??

What worries me is that the a lot of the top guys in my class, the 1.1s aren't getting interviews. And I just can't get a handle on what the market is like, some people a few years back getting good jobs with a 2.2 and no projects, vs people with projects and high grades seemingly unable to get interviews at the moment. Thus I'm sticking with a blanket approach where hopefully i get lucky and using up all contacts.(Again I should really wait for a few more weeks at least)

There seems to be a divide about starting in support and then moving up, personally I think I would rather spend another 3-4 months broadening/building a portfolio and hopefully securing a job in 6 months max, as opposed to doing a year in support and then moving to development. Suppose its just a trade-off between time/money/area. That said if I got a support position offered to me right now in Dublin I'd accept not a bother.

The jobs i do on oDesk are usually for undergrads in either C,C++ or java, figure i might as well get paid to learn in a way, the problem being I don't really have the copyright to show them as projects;)

As a final question, I've been recently told that .NET is on the way out, despite every company screaming for it. Any one have any info on whether this might be true?? TIA

CreepingDeath · 23-01-2014 4:18pm

longhalloween wrote: »

I recently went to a talk about graduate opportunities, and was told that without an online portfolio (github) a software grad is seriously limited.
Basically, they want to know what you were doing outside of college, more than what your degree is.

It depends on the company.

We only started hiring graduates last year, previously requiring at least 1-2 years experience for any software development role.

So for the most part, that meant asking graduates to talk about their final year project. What technologies they used, how well they could explain themselves and throw in a few questions on "why did you do that" in specific development areas.

Also, for every keyword they mentioned on their CV, ask them one question on it. It's amazing how many people put "XML" on their CV when the height of their knowledge on XML was editing it in a text editor ! ( As opposed to parsing, validating, translating, xpath, dom, sax, schemas, DTD's etc !)

Now if someone has shown an interest in development outside of college, writes their own pet projects, or maybe has done a bit of work for their families business or the like, that will typically raise them above the rest of the candidates.

Different businesses will have hiring cycles too.
Some might hire at the start of the year when they get their budgets, others might start interviewing graduates a couple of months before they graduate in Summer.

not1but4 · 23-01-2014 5:17pm

oneshot2shots wrote: »

What worries me is that the a lot of the top guys in my class, the 1.1s aren't getting interviews. And I just can't get a handle on what the market is like, some people a few years back getting good jobs with a 2.2 and no projects, vs people with projects and high grades seemingly unable to get interviews at the moment. Thus I'm sticking with a blanket approach where hopefully i get lucky and using up all contacts.(Again I should really wait for a few more weeks at least)

Don't worry about that. You have to remember companies are looking for people who they think will fit well into a team and knowing some of the guys from my course who got 1.1 they were impossible to work with on group projects. While other guys I know who got 1.1, had really bad CV's and undersold themselves at interviews.

oneshot2shots wrote: »

There seems to be a divide about starting in support and then moving up, personally I think I would rather spend another 3-4 months broadening/building a portfolio and hopefully securing a job in 6 months max, as opposed to doing a year in support and then moving to development. Suppose its just a trade-off between time/money/area. That said if I got a support position offered to me right now in Dublin I'd accept not a bother.

I wouldn't be so fast to knock support, it gives you the foundation blocks on how applications are tied together and giving you the business knowledge which is vital when you are tying to develop something.

In my old place the support guys did loads of scripting and then left to become developers.

ChRoMe · 23-01-2014 5:22pm

not1but4 wrote: »

In my old place the support guys did loads of scripting and then left to become developers.

++

I started out in support.

red_bairn · 23-01-2014 5:29pm

oneshot2shots wrote: »

(i) Its an 18 month intense conversion course v a 36 month undergrad, not one year v four years.
(iv) People doing the conversion masters are generally older, more mature, and more focused on getting high grades.

Ah herre! It's 15months with 1 month off and I think we were mainly focused on making through it in one piece rather than getting the best of results or both. :P

kryptonmight · 23-01-2014 5:53pm

I work in IT but I'm not a developer and I don't have a degree so I have no knowledge about degrees v conversion or anything like that.

I know certain companies will try and hire graduates specifically, and those with experience aren't usually considered. So you could include graduate/junior dev roles in your job search as those are the roles where i think you have the best chance of getting your foot in the door.

Another option is to go for something else in IT to get your foot in the door and maybe try to transition to dev (if that's what you want to do) but I guess you run the risk of being stuck in that other type of role.

I was out of work last summer for a few months and I find the best way to get a job is to be relentless when sending out CV's. I applied for stuff in different areas, such as testing, junior dev and other areas. It can take a while to get interviews but I find that once you get one or two, the ball gets rolling. You'll soon be sick of answering the same questions!

Also you may want to consider contracting. Generally those jobs have less interviews but you might run into issues if they expect you to hit the ground running and you don't have the experience, but they should be aware of that when they interview you/make an offer.

The money tends to be better than permanent but you get no holiday pay or sick pay or benefits, but unless you have insane bills, you could probably get away with contracting short/medium term and not getting paid when you take a few days off.

Panda_Turtle · 23-01-2014 5:58pm

red_bairn wrote: »

Ah herre! It's 15months with 1 month off and I think we were mainly focused on making through it in one piece rather than getting the best of results or both. :P

17 Months if you include the first August (last week in it we were in). Just round it off at 18months sounds better :pac:

oneshot2shots · 23-01-2014 6:17pm

Well i still have a java exam to finish on March 3rd, so technically from September 2012 to March 2013 is 19 months - 1 =18 months. "Well i was mainly to get through it" isin't the way I'm going to tackle the interview questions, true though it was:). Anyway I just genuinely can't see how we are actually that far behind undergraduates aside from work experience, would love to see how much work and skills they actually have.

Will start looking into support, as long as it involves something anyway technical and can serve as a platform. TBH not really sure what the position involved so it was a little premature to say I wouldn't like to go into support.

Sparks · 23-01-2014 7:37pm

First off, three weeks is a really short space of time for even experienced developers to find a new job (I've had it happen in less time, but that was because of random chance, I don't think I could have made it happen if I'd wanted to).

oneshot2shots wrote: »

Was stupid not even uploading the projects I do have to Git.

No, just inexperienced

But yes, put them up on Git, start a blog and explain their design, show that you actually know how to code, and so on.

Just one thing, there seems to be the default view that the conversion masters is way inferior to a 4 year undergrad.

Depends on the masters, the person involved, and a bunch of other stuff; but for your first job, yeah, nobody knows you or your work and it makes it a bit harder. If it's any consolation, it gets easier - no job I've ever had was as hard to get as the first one. After that first job or two, people are more interested in your experience than your degree by a few orders of magnitude.

As a final question, I've been recently told that .NET is on the way out, despite every company screaming for it. Any one have any info on whether this might be true?? TIA

You hear stories like that a lot. Don't believe any of them, they're all bull. You'd be far more worried about languages coming in than languages going out. Hell, people still make a living writing COBOL code (and a good living at that). Once stuff goes into production, someone's got to maintain it. What you have to worry about is betting on some new up and coming language and then finding nobody is using it - and maybe it never takes off at all.

Also, when you say you're sending out CVs, are you just sending them to software companies or are you targeting the non-software companies as well? The financial sector has quite a few java developers working in it, for example.

And while it's spammy as all get-out, linkedin isn't a horrible place to start. Glassdoor isn't horrible either. I dunno about recruiters though. I've never had a positive experience with one yet, but I've had a lot of timewasting and spam. But I also know I have lousy luck and haven't had the smoothest of career paths compared to people I've spoken to over the years, so maybe they're worth giving a try, at least for the first job.

And once you do get that job, network. Make sure you know the people you work for and keep in touch later - word of mouth is how I've gotten half the jobs I've had. Go to meetups, get to know people in the field from outside your company, and so on. That way, the second job will be easier to find than the first (and the way things tend to go, your first job probably won't last you for a decade

).

DublinWriter · 27-01-2014 9:30pm

Colonel Panic wrote: »

There are loads of development jobs out there, but only if you have experience.

Even that I would doubt.

Most people tend to think that development jobs = the total number of jobs in IT. That would have true up to the early 1990's but IT has matured and grown as a discipline.

From what I've seen in the past ten years, from SMEs to multi-nationals, developers are a rare breed, I'd even argue that they are an endangered species.

I've observed that developers only account for between 0% to 5% of the total IT staff in any organisation that I've seen.

oneshot2shots · 27-01-2014 10:33pm

Went for interview today, sent me an email later saying a position is available to me. One of about 4 jobs applied to without going through a recruitment agency. Starting next week.

On the pigs back so to speak, job seems to have its pros and cons so far but will just have to wait and see.

Thanks y'all:)

red_bairn · 27-01-2014 11:26pm

oneshot2shots wrote: »

Went for interview today, sent me an email later saying a position is available to me. One of about 4 jobs applied to without going through a recruitment agency. Starting next week.

On the pigs back so to speak, job seems to have its pros and cons so far but will just have to wait and see.

Thanks y'all:)

Nice work, D. PM the info y0.

everdead.ie · 28-01-2014 10:26am

oneshot2shots wrote: »

Went for interview today, sent me an email later saying a position is available to me. One of about 4 jobs applied to without going through a recruitment agency. Starting next week.

On the pigs back so to speak, job seems to have its pros and cons so far but will just have to wait and see.

Thanks y'all:)

Good stuff and January hasn't even ended best of luck you will probably meet a bunch of Dev boardsies there and not know it. Small world and all that.

npeplow · 10-02-2014 6:47am

Short Answer - You might find at some of the bigger companies that they have been filled by summer interns. The trend nowadays is for them to try and fill up the schemes with grads they have already tested out. If you are really struggling, why not approach companies and try to intern so they can get an idea (and hopefully be impressed!) with your experience? Take a look at enternships.com for example, they have quite a few shorter term positions you could work in for the meantime until you find the right job. Usual places like Milkround, Graduate Job etc have all the listings

npeplow · 10-02-2014 6:48am

Gah, just seen your reply - Congrats on getting the job!

harry999 · 27-03-2014 1:21pm

Hi I'm a software engineer & wondering which are the best recruitment agencies in Dublin for contract & permanent work. I'm working at present & have 10+ years experience in s/w development. Is stelfox.ie good? Any Others ? Thanks

Where are all the IT jobs??

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