Old gun

Deerspotter · 09-12-2014 10:37am #1

I was in a friends house and he had this in an old cupboard. He said it had no value.
Could that be right? The barrel is plugged and it is not in a shootable condition.
The stock has damage from wood-worm.
Anyone have any idea of what era it is from?
Or if it really is worthless?

Grizzly 45 · 09-12-2014 1:50pm

Not being much up on flint locks and from the pics ,its hard to tell.
You will need to have a look for markings or inscriptions on the barrel or on the lockwork to get a better idea of what you have and are dealing with.
It certainly was decomissioned Irish style.Back in Victorian times in Ireland it was common for the RIC to simply remove the hammers from guns to make them inoperative..:eek::D
Guess everyone was too poor to get a file and a hacksaw and make a new hammer back then..:p

Deerspotter · 09-12-2014 2:34pm

From what I can see, the markings on the barrel are: 1st B HAISE 1 (could be E HAILE) either way google shows nothing!
High quality photo attached now.

On the side beside the flint hammer bit it says: TOWER
High quality photo attached now.

I have googled these and found nothing.

roosman · 09-12-2014 2:54pm

Its a Tower musket, or brown Bess...with hammer removed..

do a wikipedia on Brown Bess

Whosthis · 09-12-2014 3:03pm

Deerspotter wrote: »

I was in a friends house and he had this in an old cupboard. He said it had no value.
Could that be right? The barrel is plugged and it is not in a shootable condition.
The stock has damage from wood-worm.
Anyone have any idea of what era it is from?
Or if it really is worthless?

Your thread was on the first page and decided to have a look, I've absolutely no knowledge on these things but could the "1st B Haise" inscription be the soldiers name and battalion number that the weapon was allocated to?

Not too clear in the picture but could the 1st actually be 1LT, as in first lieutenant, then B Haise, then 1 for the battalion number.

Deerspotter · 09-12-2014 3:08pm

A bit of brasso and some wood polish should make it look nice enough to hang on a wall, instead of being hidden away.
Doesn't sound like this is valuable item - non the less, should be displayed...

deeksofdoom · 09-12-2014 4:23pm

From my extensive googling today, its was manufactured by the Tower armouries. B. Haise could also be the manufacturer of the barrel. Greener used to stamp his barrels on the same location.

http://collections.tepapa.govt.nz/object/52560

Grizzly 45 · 09-12-2014 6:34pm

Proably means First Battalion Hastings Regt?? The GNB ?? No idea
Tower is Tower of London armoury...
Bit of a strip down ,dose for woodworm and a nice oil refinish and light rub with wire wool and oli,an appropriate new flintlock hammer from Dixie Gunworks,and you have a nice historical display piece.:)

cerastes · 09-12-2014 6:39pm

Not sure Id recommend going at it with brasso or wire wool, doesnt look like its worth much, but if its worth anything, it will probably be a lot less if you do this.

Nekarsulm · 09-12-2014 11:46pm

Long shot perhaps, but would it ever have had a home in either the Barracks in Ballyhaise, C. Cavan, or indeed in the manor House in Ballyhaise?
Sometimes the town name is abbreviated to B Haise.

deeksofdoom · 10-12-2014 10:52am

There's not much point in doing any sort of restoration on the gun. Changing the stock, sanding it and revarnishing will destroy the gun. It looks bad now but it would look worse if you were to do a botch job on it... it would be vandalism.

Give it a good clean, treat the woodworm, polish the brass and oil the stock. If you can get a replacement hammer and missing bits that fit well and good for authenticity.

But other than that a botched job on it would be nothing short of vandalism. It must have some story to tell.

Deerspotter · 10-12-2014 11:23am

I wish I knew the story!
The old guy who used to live in the house has died some years ago and I am sure he knew it.
No one left to ask!

tac foley · 10-12-2014 12:00pm

Re: Your musket is one of the so-called Land Pattern muskets commonly called the 'Brown Bess'. Peter Dyson [google him] has suitable 'cocks' - NOT called a hammer, BTW, for this old gun, as well as numerous other parts that might be missing.

You say that it is 'plugged' - this not stop it from being loaded, as many old guns were kept loaded 'just in case'. One here was found loaded after hanging over a fireplace since the end of the last Fenian Rebellion back in the 1870's. If in any doubt, pour a measure of penetrating oil into the touch hole and continue to do so until it starts to come out. Leave it overnight, and then pour it away.

1. Metal cleaning - To clean it GENTLY, use oiled BRONZE wool - 0000 grade, NOT steel wool. The gun is made of iron, not steel, and will be seriously degraded by the use of steel wool.

2. Stock cleaning - DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE THE STOCK - see later - the GENTLE use of any of the newer non-abrasive citrus or orange-based cleaners is good - we use Windex, but that is not available in Europe AFAIK.

3. After it has dried out completely [and please do NOT try to do it by applying heat] the wood can be brought back to life by generous use of successive applications of Boiled Linseed Oil, warmed up and applied on a pad, or better, by hand, let dry off, and then repeated until the sheen comes back. It WILL come back.

4. Do not attempt to polish the brass parts in any way. Patina is an irreplaceable and non-refundable deposit - once it's gone, so are the last 250+ years of age.

5. To remove the barrel involves driving out a number of retaining pins - you are advised to leave it where it is, as the risk of serious damage by trying to drive them out driving them the wrong direction in a dry stock is very high.

6. The metal parts, having been VERY gently cleaned [it looks like nicotine deposits to me], should be treated to Renaissance Wax - as used in museums. If you can't find that in Europe, then a high-quality wax of the kind sold to maintain the finish on alloy automobile wheels will serve the same purpose.

This old gun is NOT worthless, but might, on the right day and having sensitively improved, fetch around 800 - 1000eu in UK. Its irreplaceable provenance right there on the barrel with the name of the local militia unit.

Right now, it looks a crumbling pile of bits, but it is part of Ireland's heritage and history, and deserves some TLC and to be displayed with pride.

tac

Deerspotter · 10-12-2014 1:09pm

Thanks so much for your reply, that is very helpful.

kmaddock · 10-12-2014 8:06pm

Hi there
First post here
Nice gun, I would disagree about it being a first pattern Brown Bess though
The lock was more a banana shape in the first pattern
It looks like an Indian third pattern to me, measure the full barrel length and then you can tell definitively
as gun powder improved the barrels were shortened as the pressure was built up by full combustion and if the barrel was too long you were adding extra weight for no gain

I restore this type of fire arm and it is a good do upper and I would fully agree with tac foley in that do nothing to the gun unless you know what you are up to if you want to maintain its value, no varnish or blueing should be carried out
It could be cleaned up. V nicely and would make a nice project over the winter months

When I acquire loaded flintlocks I neutralise the gunpowder as described and then remove the lead ball by screwing a v sharp screw on a long length of bar into the ball and them pulling out the ball
Best of luck with the project
K

Deerspotter · 11-12-2014 10:23am

Picture attached of the tape measure on the barrel. Depending on what you class as the end of the barrel, it is either 94cm or 1m long.

Thanks so much to everyone that has replied.

kmaddock · 11-12-2014 11:50am

Hi
You would quote this as a 94 cm barrel as you diss regard the tang in barrel measurement.
The nominal length of these is 39 inches, yours is a bit shorter at around 37.5 but this varaince is normal or maybe a bit has been lopped off the barrel, which was normal enough when the barrels were damaged

You could tell if the barrel has been shortened by measuring the distance of the sight, (which was more an attachment point for the bayonet than a sight) to the end of the barrel
The gun is indeed a third pattern, given the name Brown Bess India Pattern as the East Indian company developed this variance which was then officialy adopted by the British army in 1797
regards
K

Deerspotter · 11-12-2014 4:09pm

Were these guns ever used in Ireland? Would you have any theory as to the actual history of the gun and what action it might have ever seen?

deeksofdoom · 11-12-2014 4:44pm

Deerspotter wrote: »

Were these guns ever used in Ireland? Would you have any theory as to the actual history of the gun and what action it might have ever seen?

You'ld want to find out the history of the Militia unit that had it. More than likely it was local Ballyhaise FCA of the time. What interests me is how did it fall into private hands. Are you still living in the Cavan area?

Might have been used in 1798, Vineagar Hill even!:cool: Did it fall into fenian hands after that?

kmaddock · 11-12-2014 4:58pm

Hi There
The BB 3rd pattern came out in 1797 so this gun could have been used in 1798 rebellion that we will never know, i wish i knew the history of a lot of my collection but alas i have to but guess.
it would have had a service history of 56 years but could have been used by militia units after it ceased to be the main Army rifle, similar as to how the enfield was issued the FCA once the FN became the main army rifle in Ireland and the UK

The BB was superseeded in 1853 by the British Enfield (the British armys first full issue rifle, the BB has a smooth Barrel), the 1853 used percussion as an ignition method .

BB's were converted to the lot more efficient percussion ignition system in 1820's but a lot escaped as millions were produced.
I know nothing about the markings on the barrel and what they signify but it definately would not be the soldier who it was issued to as thes rifles remained property of the crown until sold out of service.

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