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Votes for Irish Citizens Abroad

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Comments

  • #92
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    ardmacha wrote: »
    That's precisly the problem. These policies should reflect the wishes of the people in Ireland in these matters, not the views of those living elsewhere who do not have live with the outcome of these decisions.

    And that is why Ireland is never ever going to change. Ever.

    So I guess you think non citizens should be ale to vote, residents, refugees, etc? Since they are the ones who have to live with it.


  • #93
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You referred to the “illusion” that your vote can change anything in Ireland? It suggests that democracy in Ireland is inherently flawed. It isn’t. It’s just the way the electorate put it into practice.


    Firstly, I referred to the illusion because for anything to change the electorate must become politicians. Once they become politicians they must join a party to have any real chance of changing anything, and therefore the desire to change things gets drowned out by the party politics not the individuals. And while the parties make loads of grand statements during election periods to garner votes, they them do what they wish.. We know the political system is flawed, but the politicians themselves are not going to seek a change in the system. To make them accountable for their actions, regardless of the desire of the electorate, will not happen and hence the illusion of control I had as a voter.

    And secondly, my illusion reference makes no comment about Chinese politics or any comparison with Irish politics.


  • #94
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    And that is why Ireland is never ever going to change. Ever.

    So I guess you think non citizens should be ale to vote, residents, refugees, etc? Since they are the ones who have to live with it.

    The essence of a democracy is that those who are committed to the country (citizens) and who will be affected by the decisions made (residents) are those who should be entitled to vote.

    Resident citizens.


  • #95
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Godge wrote: »
    The essence of a democracy is that those who are committed to the country (citizens) and who will be affected by the decisions made (residents) are those who should be entitled to vote.

    Resident citizens.

    Citizenship does not leave you once you move. So in essence citizens do not have the right to vote. It's a privaledge that accompanies residency.


  • #96
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    How do you know there isn't in China? Be they members of the same party or same political class, you'll always find a least worst alternative.
    Sure, but the risk of detention likely limits the extent to which anyone can sway from the party line.


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  • #97
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    And that is why Ireland is never ever going to change. Ever.
    Ireland has changed a great deal in my lifetime. I see no reason why it will not change a great deal further over the next few decades.


  • #98
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Deleted User wrote: »
    And while the parties make loads of grand statements during election periods to garner votes, they them do what they wish.
    Therein lies the big problem. Parties tell the electorate exactly what they want to hear, regardless of how (un)realistic it might be. A case in point is the funding of third-level education. Irish universities are drastically underfunded, but prior to the last general election, Ruairi Quinn made a commitment not to increase college fees. But did anyone question how third-level education was to be funded in the absence of increased fees for students? Cue outrage from electorate at suggestions that third-level fees may be increased.


  • #99
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Citizenship does not leave you once you move. So in essence citizens do not have the right to vote.
    Citizens do have the right to vote. In order to exercise that right, they have to comply with certain registration requirements; specifically, they have to be resident in a constituency and they have to present themselves at a polling station in that constituency.

    The requirements to cast a vote vary from country to country. Ours are more restrictive than some, but that's our prerogative as a sovereign nation, just as every other sovereign nation gets to set its own requirements.


  • #100
    r3nu4l
    Registered Users Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    hfallada wrote: »
    Why should people be allowed to vote on issues what will have little or no impact on them? If you live outside Ireland, you probably will make your decision on what the media and family/friends will tell you. Which will probably impact your decision in a bad way.
    Or you could be someone like me who reads the IrishTimes and Irish Independent (yuck) every day along with other national and local newspapers, who listens to Morning Ireland and Newstalk Breakfast regularly, who reads boards.ie (:pac:) everyday and knows more about current affairs and politics in Ireland than many of the disenfranchised apathetic 'voters' living in Ireland. I'm not alone in being like that either.

    I haven't lived in Ireland for almost ten years now but am desperately trying to return home (I need to get one of them job things in Ireland before I can move home) so many of today's issues will directly impact me in the next 12 months. I would like to be able to vote in elections based on the fact that my vote would be far more informed than many of the political illiterates who vote in Ireland.

    You can be sure too that almost ALL of those abroad who would take the time and make the effort to vote in Irish elections would be people who had a genuine interest in politics and are likely to be well informed on issues unlike many of those at home.
    If you were born in Sligo and emigrated as a child 80 years ago. I dont believe you should be allowed to vote.
    I'd agree with this, I feel that if you've been out of the country for over a certain time period (say 10 years) then you should lose the right to vote.
    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    I no longer live in Ireland and i happily accept the fact i don't have a vote anymore. I wouldn't feel right voting in elections when the outcome would not affect me.

    I don't contribute tax to Ireland and it would also seem unfair to have the same vote as someone who does and is resident.

    It's not just about taxes though and as has been pointed out, if you use tax paying as a benchmark then carers and the unemployed should not be allowed to vote either, after all 'they only take from the system...'*


    *Not my actual opinion but the logic follows on...


  • #101
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Therein lies the big problem. Parties tell the electorate exactly what they want to hear, regardless of how (un)realistic it might be. A case in point is the funding of third-level education. Irish universities are drastically underfunded, but prior to the last general election, Ruairi Quinn made a commitment not to increase college fees. But did anyone question how third-level education was to be funded in the absence of increased fees for students? Cue outrage from electorate at suggestions that third-level fees may be increased.

    I can definitely understand that in general terms. But take the economic crash.. People were screaming murder looking for answers. Certain politicians, solicitors, businessmen, and bankers were highlighted as being directly responsible for initiating dodgy schemes, taking favors, and general mismanagement of their duties. The electorate for a long time screamed for change in the political parties, the law and the system of the government because definite flaws were highlighted.

    What do we get? Tribunals. Tribunals that have no power to do anything to the individuals involved, but cost a fortune, promises of reform by the parties, and then.... Nothing. I dare say a few of the tribunals are still going on... With no real end in sight.

    The issue is that while the electorate does indeed have the power to change things, if the politicians ignore us long enough, people get distracted. That's the nature of an electorate. And the politicians know this. Some new crisis comes up and we focus on that, thereby forgetting our original passion. There is no method in place to quickly change the system without the direct input of the politicians themselves, and they're not going to want changes that make them liable for their mistakes in office. And so nothing substantial changes. Oh, there are cosmetic changes, but nothing that really seeks to prevent them from happening again...


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  • #102
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I can definitely understand that in general terms. But take the economic crash.. People were screaming murder looking for answers.
    Sure, after it happened. It's another great example of Irish politicians feeding the electorate everything they wanted to hear to get elected. Every economist worth their salt was screaming for years that there was something very wrong with the Irish economy, but Bertie said it was grand, so obviously house prices were destined to go up forever and ever and ever.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The electorate for a long time screamed for change in the political parties, the law and the system of the government because definite flaws were highlighted.
    I don't remember anyone screaming for change when the price of their house was soaring.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    What do we get? Tribunals. Tribunals that have no power to do anything to the individuals involved, but cost a fortune, promises of reform by the parties, and then.... Nothing.
    Look at the final report produced by the Moriarty Tribunal. Now look who's still representing North Tipperary in the Dáil.


  • #103
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Sure, after it happened. It's another great example of Irish politicians feeding the electorate everything they wanted to hear to get elected. Every economist worth their salt was screaming for years that there was something very wrong with the Irish economy, but Bertie said it was grand, so obviously house prices were destined to go up forever and ever and ever.

    Weren't we supposed to trust our government and the other politicians?
    I don't remember anyone screaming for change when the price of their house was soaring.

    Nope, that's certainly true. We didn't want to believe that it would end, and it was made easier when most of the experts didn't predict anything changing. Sure, there were a few who said otherwise, but they were a minority. And then the banks, who we trusted explicitly, backed up those assurances. Imagine the shock when we realised that banks were businesses and prone to putting profits over its customers.

    But it doesn't change anything. The electorate sought change after the fact. As with any massive cockup some heads should have rolled. Very few did, and usually with their pensions intact. I can't recall of anyone being imprisoned for negligence and yet that's what it was. A betrayal of the electorates trust.
    Look at the final report produced by the Moriarty Tribunal. Now look who's still representing North Tipperary in the Dáil.

    Will do. Give me some time though. I need to get my VPN running again since occasionally official websites get blocked over here.


  • #104
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Weren't we supposed to trust our government and the other politicians?
    Trust politicians? What?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure, there were a few who said otherwise, but they were a minority.
    I wouldn't really agree with that. I can remember headlines from as far back as 2004 warning about Ireland's over-heated property sector and certainly by the time of the 2007 election, the dissenting voices had grown pretty loud (hence Bertie's now infamous speech).
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I can't recall of anyone being imprisoned for negligence and yet that's what it was.
    Is that enshrined in law?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Will do. Give me some time though. I need to get my VPN running again since occasionally official websites get blocked over here.
    I'll save you the time. My point was that Michael Lowry has been implicated in all sorts of shenanigans, from tax evasion to dodgy dealings with Denis O'Brien and Ben Dunne. But, he's still topping the polls in Tipperary North.

    Now who's to blame for that? Lowry, or the muppets that keep electing him?


  • #105
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Ireland has changed a great deal in my lifetime. I see no reason why it will not change a great deal further over the next few decades.

    Because anyone who would change things emigrates. And uh...they have no political clout.


  • #106
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Trust politicians? What?

    Haha. True but we kind of did trust the government. (Not individual politicians but the government itself) Sure... There were small mistakes over the years, but something of this scope?
    I'll save you the time. My point was that Michael Lowry has been implicated in all sorts of shenanigans, from tax evasion to dodgy dealings with Denis O'Brien and Ben Dunne. But, he's still topping the polls in Tipperary North.

    Now who's to blame for that? Lowry, or the muppets that keep electing him?

    Both? I'm definitely not seeking to excuse myself or the electorate. We were fools, and quite often we still are. But the point I'm making is that the politicians understand the weaknesses of the electorate, and that's part of the problem with our system (although in all honesty, it's probably the same in all systems). Hence the reason, I said the illusion of being able to change things before. Even you and a few others hold the target in sight, the politicians won't seek to change anything, and the electorate will just forget given time.


  • #107
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    r3nu4l wrote: »

    It's not just about taxes though and as has been pointed out, if you use tax paying as a benchmark then carers and the unemployed should not be allowed to vote either, after all 'they only take from the system...'*


    *Not my actual opinion but the logic follows on...

    I never said taxes were the sole reason why they shouldn't. Just one of several reasons. In fact the vote is important to carers and the unemployed as the who the next government could greatly affect the carers and the chances of the unemployed gaining employment. A person living abroad will have far less of a stake on the outcome.

    Being abroad and keeping up to date on matters is not a justifiable reason to give allow people abroad a vote.


  • #108
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Ok so what about all those parents who are forced to emigrate but still have kids in Ireland? Should they not have some say in their children's futures?


  • #109
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    Ok so what about all those parents who are forced to emigrate but still have kids in Ireland? Should they not have some say in their children's futures?
    My dad has four children who were forced to emigrate, one in the eighties and three in the last few years. Should he have a say in their futures? Should he get a vote in the UK, the UAE and Australia?


  • #110
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    My dad has four children who were forced to emigrate, one in the eighties and three in the last few years. Should he have a say in their futures? Should he get a vote in the UK, the UAE and Australia?

    We're they adults when they emigrated?

    I said CHILDREN.


  • #111
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    We're they adults when they emigrated?

    I said CHILDREN.

    And how many cases of this actually happen? Most people with kids who emigrate take the kids with them.


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  • #112
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    We're they adults when they emigrated?

    I said CHILDREN.
    You don't get a right to a say in your adult children's futures?


  • #113
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You don't get a right to a say in your adult children's futures?

    Nope. It's their life after all.

    Under 18 you do. After that, nope.


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