"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

Aard · 15-01-2012 5:00pm

The whole Leap project badly needs a Big Wow Announcement. It will get people talking about it, get people to buy one (guaranteed to take a few trips if even just to use up the credit), and thereby will give the Leap chaps a bit of cash upfront to further market the thing.

I would suggest this be in the form of some sort of fare cap. Off the top of my head, you could have:

Daily Multi-operator cap: This'd appeal to people, though I'd imagine it would be set so high as to make it only useful to the long-distancer. Somewhere around €9 for Inner Short Hop, Luas, and DB would sound about right.
Single-trip Multi-operator cap: I think this would be the business. As above (Inner Short Hop, Luas, Bus) but you get 90 minutes of travel for €4.50
Dublin Bus right-hand validator costs €1.90

Obviously the first two are hard to implement. Apparently the NTA is working on some sort of zonal system, so it's unlikely to happen.

The Dublin Bus validator being set at the price of a T90 would generate so much talk in the wake of their fare increases that people would be rushing out to buy a Leap card. Easy to implement, and doesn't even lower prices as such (as the €1.90 fare is already available through T90 10-packs). People would be far more likely to make discretionary trips, knowing that it'll cost them max €1.90.

markpb · 15-01-2012 5:16pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

the system would have crashed spectacularly and would continue to crash and flail wildly until the leap was put to sleep for good

foggy_lad wrote: »

I see the leap card failing

foggy_lad wrote: »

i cant help thinking that it will be useless for the purpose most people will want it for because it is so inflexible!

foggy_lad wrote: »

What cretins thought this up?

foggy_lad wrote: »

they must have got a child in to sort out the mess:D

So we can assume you don't like it? After a month of the cards being available and the entire system still under development, you've condemned it. Good to see an open mind

Hotblack Desiato · 15-01-2012 10:28pm

markpb wrote: »

So we can assume you don't like it? After a month of the cards being available and the entire system still under development

That's the problem. It was released before it was ready. Leap are not taking responsibility for the errors the system is generating. The situation for DB users is utterly ridiculous, 13 stages or over is way more expensive than a Travel90 (and no transfer ability) whereas shorter distance travellers have to interact, slowly, with the driver. You couldn't make it up

AlekSmart · 15-01-2012 10:32pm

ninja900 wrote: »

The situation for DB users is utterly ridiculous, 13 stages or over is way more expensive than a Travel90 (and no transfer ability)

I have an increasing dread,Ninja900,that the T90's are going to get a significant wallop very soon....I would imagine that the ITS people will demand some substantial "realignment" of the T90 price before they include it on LeapCard functionality.

markpb · 15-01-2012 10:52pm

ninja900 wrote: »

That's the problem. It was released before it was ready. Leap are not taking responsibility for the errors the system is generating. The situation for DB users is utterly ridiculous, 13 stages or over is way more expensive than a Travel90 (and no transfer ability) whereas shorter distance travellers have to interact, slowly, with the driver. You couldn't make it up

I have several issues with that:

First, I'm not denying that there is missing functionality and that there are problems. I just get tired of reading people constantly bashing it and whinging about it, ad nauseum. Listing problems (once) and suggesting improvements, fine. Bashing is boring IMHO.

Secondly, it's an integrated ticket card, not integrated fares. All it does is provide a mechanism to carry cash and tickets for multiple operators. It's not what we wanted but it's what the government tasked RPA with delivering. If Dublin Bus want to cock it up and make it unattractive to their customers, there's nothing that Leap/NTA can easily do about it.

Third - it is common for almost all large (IT) projects to delivered in phases and Leap is no exception. If they had launched with everything in place at the start, it would have been almost unmanageable. This way, while less attractive right now, is much more reliable.

Mark200 · 15-01-2012 11:35pm

markpb wrote: »

ninja900 wrote: »

That's the problem. It was released before it was ready. Leap are not taking responsibility for the errors the system is generating. The situation for DB users is utterly ridiculous, 13 stages or over is way more expensive than a Travel90 (and no transfer ability) whereas shorter distance travellers have to interact, slowly, with the driver. You couldn't make it up

Third - it is common for almost all large (IT) projects to delivered in phases and Leap is no exception. If they had launched with everything in place at the start, it would have been almost unmanageable. This way, while less attractive right now, is much more reliable.

I think that third point there is the most important to remember. It's unfair to moan about lack of features when the first phase wasn't meant to have any features beyond being an epurse. It would have been unwise to release a card with everything in one go. There will always be bugs that will only be spotted once released to thousands of users.

Carawaystick · 16-01-2012 2:06am

Mark200 wrote: »

It's unfair to moan about lack of features when the first phase wasn't meant to have any features beyond being an epurse. It would have been unwise to release a card with everything in one go. There will always be bugs that will only be spotted once released to thousands of users.

Have you an official source for this statement from say 2007? because it seems like the rpa/nta are now saying this was how it was to be all along, but I got the impression from discussions with the rpa in the mid/late naughties that The system was to be world class.

If Dublin bus still gave change, the whole 50 millions would be simply to give a few pennies discount on certain trips.

The online top up for bus customers is a cock up
The higher fare and longer dwell time for a leap user vs a travel 90 user on X busses is a failure.
The poor customer service (buck passing) is a failure
The failure to anticipate that journeys may take >90 mins is a failure.
The failure to have customer service available during the hours of public transport availability 19:00 on weekdays, 15:00 on Saturdays and none on Sundays!

None of these were obscure bugs that just happened to show up in very rare cases after the roll out.

The fact that the very first step the rpa took in making an *integrated* ticketing system was to introduce two non-integrated contactless smartcard systems makes it very hard for me to accept that they are not clueless morons on the take/make. I'm not really prepared to give them any leeway. They seem to have put lipstick on a pig so far ( and possibly increased their years of pensionable reckoning by dragging the whole thing out)

There are still no target deadlines for the new and improved services, nor have I seen the targets that need to be met for the current system, before any improvement will be rolled out.

AlekSmart · 16-01-2012 7:11am

Carawaystick wrote: »

If Dublin bus still gave change, the whole 50 millions would be simply to give a few pennies discount on certain trips.

None of these were obscure bugs that just happened to show up in very rare cases after the roll out.

The fact that the very first step the rpa took in making an *integrated* ticketing system was to introduce two non-integrated contactless smartcard systems makes it very hard for me to accept that they are not clueless morons on the take/make. I'm not really prepared to give them any leeway. They seem to have put lipstick on a pig so far ( and possibly increased their years of pensionable reckoning by dragging the whole thing out)

There are still no target deadlines for the new and improved services, nor have I seen the targets that need to be met for the current system, before any improvement will be rolled out.

Hmmm...now there's an idea Carawaystick !....perhaps the RTA/ITB overlooked a golden opportunity here.....A Change-Ticket on yer LeapCard too.....WOW...U Go Man...U GO !!!!

AS for the pair of contactless systems...well...Nail,Hammer......Head......they really shudda gone to Specsavers

We,as in WE all involved in this lunacy,need to get the Integration element of the ITS back to the top of the agenda.

It's all too clear that whilst the people who devised and ran this thing were at the top of their proffessions,none of the disciplines appears to have much to do with operational use of a Bus,Train,Tram or Car a Banc....methinks a Laptop and Trench Coat too far....

Groinshot · 16-01-2012 5:05pm

Online top up service is abysmal! If I want to top up online, I have to go online, top up with my card, and collect the balance in a payzone outlet? I might aswell just walk to the payzone outlet.

steve-o · 16-01-2012 5:22pm

Aard wrote: »

Dublin Bus right-hand validator costs €1.90

It is nuts that even a single journey on Leap can be over €1.90. I still carry a Rambler and a Travel 90 because Leap is only of value on the bus for relatively short journeys involving a single bus. Hopefully sometime in the future Leap will automatically cap the bus fares according to Travel 90 and Rambler prices.

n97 mini · 16-01-2012 5:28pm

Groinshot wrote: »

Online top up service is abysmal!

Reminds me of when you could first pay your TV licence "on-line": You filled out the form on screen, printed it off, and brought it into the post office and paid over the counter.

Stevek101 · 16-01-2012 7:02pm

Groinshot wrote: »

Online top up service is abysmal! If I want to top up online, I have to go online, top up with my card, and collect the balance in a payzone outlet? I might aswell just walk to the payzone outlet.

Bit of exercise never hurt anyone. NTA are just fulfilling their remit.

The principal functions of the NTA with respect to the GDA are:
promoting cycling and walking;

johnmcdnl · 16-01-2012 8:23pm

Would it not have been feasible and more sensible to have had a scan getting on and scan getting off system... was in Amsterdam recently and it just made so much sense and regular announcements over the speaker on the tram to remember to scan getting off... therefore no more people just trying to get long distance trips for the price of a short fare... it'd also be way faster as driver would only have to deal with the small number of people using coins... as for better pricing packages well that should have been sorted earlier but it can still be introduced in the future. Hopefully sooner rather than later

stop · 16-01-2012 8:37pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Just heard that there were figures of 15,000 have signed up for the leap card up to Thursday 5th January 2012.

A single LeapCard should mhave been posted to each registered domestic address in the GDA.

No household should have been without one actual card and the info leaflet.

No need for it to be charged and operational,but it needed to be physically available for people to stroke,shake and lick if need be.

Instead,I still have several people daily asking me what this Leap thing is,how does it work,where can it be bought,how much etc etc....

There is something distinctly missing from the Publicity package,as it does not appear to be hitting the mark.....I would have went with "Bullseye" as a moniker,using the original Card Reader target as the focus..."Hit The Bullseye for the cheapest fare" etc etc.....also managing to get away from the "Swipe Card" impression still held by many ordinary folks.

By the way...I suggest that the ability to pay for more than one person using Leap will turn out to be one of the most important aids to popularity and flexibility IF the ITS people can comprehend that....

Was in LA last year, I was able to buy their equivalent of a leap card from a bus driver, as I was purchasing their equivalent of a one day rambler at the time. 5 or 6 dollars into their autofare machine, so simple!

Aard · 16-01-2012 8:57pm

Speaking of Los Angeles, don't they have a flat fare there of $1.50 for both bus and subway, with only a nominal surcharge for transfers?

If Los Angeles (the archetypal sprawl-city, between 70 and 100 km long) can operate a flat fare system, why can't Dublin? Even just for the busses? I've yet to see a convincing reason why not.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-01-2012 9:41pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I have an increasing dread,Ninja900,that the T90's are going to get a significant wallop very soon....I would imagine that the ITS people will demand some substantial "realignment" of the T90 price before they include it on LeapCard functionality.

So much for the 'cheaper travel' benefit of Leap then! (just like the 'quicker' and the 'no need to know the fare' benefits it should have had, too.)

Unfortunately it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they did exactly that.

Hotblack Desiato · 16-01-2012 9:54pm

markpb wrote: »

If Dublin Bus want to cock it up and make it unattractive to their customers, there's nothing that Leap/NTA can easily do about it.

NTA have to approve Dublin Bus fares, correct? The fare structure should've been sorted out before Leap was launched on DB. It's by far the most important mode of public transport in Dublin.

It's a joke, frankly, to expect travellers to know whether their journey is over 13 'stages' or not (and who can be expected to know what a stage is - they're not marked on bus stops or on DB's online map) or else get ripped off if they use the right-hand validator on a shorter journey.

It's a joke that Leap is much more expensive and less flexible than a Travel 90.

It's a joke that driver interaction is required. From the reports of posters here, it's as slow or slower than paying cash.

The implementation of Leap as it stands now on DB is just awful - no doubt it will be improved but how long is that going to take, and what damage will have been done to the system's public reputation by then?

Jehuty42 · 16-01-2012 9:55pm

Aard wrote: »

Speaking of Los Angeles, don't they have a flat fare there of $1.50 for both bus and subway, with only a nominal surcharge for transfers?

If Los Angeles (the archetypal sprawl-city, between 70 and 100 km long) can operate a flat fare system, why can't Dublin? Even just for the busses? I've yet to see a convincing reason why not.

Because people currently paying less than what a flat fare would be(going down to the local shops or something) will revolt, will call Joe Duffy, will make all kinds of huge fuss. No one wants to take that on.

It would work if we had shorter routes, maybe? it does seem unfair for two passengers on the 39a, one going 10 minutes from Huntstown to the Centre and one going over an hour from Ongar to UCD to be charged the same.

Aard · 16-01-2012 10:17pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Because people currently paying less than what a flat fare would be(going down to the local shops or something) will revolt, will call Joe Duffy, will make all kinds of huge fuss. No one wants to take that on.

Hmm, I understand that a 50% hike in the lowest fare is a lot in one go. But it might encourage people to buy period tickets instead. Incidentally, period tickets are a form of flat fare. No matter how far or short you travel, a month ticket will still be €100. Nobody seems to think that kind of flat fare is unusual. It's only when it's cash.

It would work if we had shorter routes, maybe? it does seem unfair for two passengers on the 39a, one going 10 minutes from Huntstown to the Centre and one going over an hour from Ongar to UCD to be charged the same.

Unfair in what sense though. Yes, the amount of money they hand over would be the same. But the first person would be paying for the convenience, while the second person would be paying a lot more in something that can't be gotten back: time. To me it seems unfair that the second person should both have to spend over an hour on the bus and pay extra for the privilege. Nobody sits on the bus for the good of their health -- usually long trips are taken because there's no other way around it. If this person could live on campus or near Belfield I'm sure they would.

I know where the idea comes from of paying extra for a longer ride of course. However, what if that idea was extended further. What if bus routes that weren't breaking even were cut? The 46a subsidises a lot of low-frequency routes I'm sure. Should we make customers on unprofitable services pay more too? That would be unfair. So likewise, how come it's fair to charge somebody extra just because they keep their bum on the seat longer -- after all the bus is still going to its destination with or without them.

bk · 16-01-2012 10:50pm

Actually best practise in public transport today in most countries is to discourage short journey by charging relatively higher amounts then the long journeys.

The bus is going to be making the same journey either way, thus pretty much the same cost if the bus is full or empty for the most of the journey or not. However obviously the transport company makes more money if the bus is full of high paying long distance passengers, then a bus full of low paying short distance passengers who could walk or cycle anyway.

LUAS works this way with a relatively high initial fare for even a short journey.

Dublin Bus fare structure is pretty much an anomaly here, in particular the city centre fare is an awful idea. A flat fare, which encourages long distance folks and discourages short distance people, is good for Dublin Bus, the environment and the majority of people of Ireland.

Jehuty42 · 16-01-2012 11:01pm

bk wrote: »

A flat fare, which encourages long distance folks and discourages short distance people, is good for Dublin Bus, the environment and the majority of people of Ireland.

You and I agree on that, but I'm not quite so sure that most Dubliners will.

Again, looking at the 39a, it operates as a local feeder bus to the Blanchardstown centre for the western part of the route. Quite often if will fill up completely through Ongar, Clonsilla, Hartstown and Huntstown, to standing room, then almost everyone gets off at the centre. It then picks up people elsewhere on its way into town. What would happen to these journeys by locals to the centre go if they were discouraged? There's obviously a demand for the trip they're making, so would they just stop going, start walking, start driving, or what?

bk · 16-01-2012 11:01pm

Thinking about it, having used the LEAP card for the past two months and watched others use it, I've come to the conclusion that we desperately need a flat fare on the buses.

However if that can't be accomplished, then I believe tag on and tag off would be the next best thing.

Yes, I agree it would be slower then a flat fare, but I think it would be faster then the current dreadfully slow "talk to the driver" set up.

The "talk to the driver" set up is just way too slow.

Aard · 16-01-2012 11:40pm

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Again, looking at the 39a, it operates as a local feeder bus to the Blanchardstown centre for the western part of the route. Quite often if will fill up completely through Ongar, Clonsilla, Hartstown and Huntstown, to standing room, then almost everyone gets off at the centre. It then picks up people elsewhere on its way into town. What would happen to these journeys by locals to the centre go if they were discouraged? There's obviously a demand for the trip they're making, so would they just stop going, start walking, start driving, or what?

There's also the other glaring option: just pay the flat fare! I wonder how many of those people work in the centre. They should buy a rambler/monthly. Then there's the elderly/disabled who have a free travel pass. Then there's children who pretty much have a flat fare already. Then there's the occasional rider. This is where it gets tricky. Tbh, anybody within 2km should just walk. If you're further than 2km out, then I don't think €1.90 is such a bad fare. I'd imagine most of the occasionals would still pay that, or find some work-around like a Rambler.

pc7 · 17-01-2012 10:15am

Listening to Dublin Bus rep on newstalk now and she said they have applied for a further increase on prepaid (only) cards so might be worth stocking up on travel 90 tickets.

the groutch · 17-01-2012 10:19am

pc7 wrote: »

Listening to Dublin Bus rep on newstalk now and she said they have applied for a further increase on prepaid (only) cards so might be worth stocking up on travel 90 tickets.

we all knew that was coming anyway, I'd say we'll see a €22 travel 90 (or possible elimination), and a €125 or €130 30 day rambler if the cash fare increases are anything to go by

n97 mini · 17-01-2012 10:36am

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Because people currently paying less than what a flat fare would be(going down to the local shops or something) will revolt, will call Joe Duffy, will make all kinds of huge fuss. No one wants to take that on.

Very simple solution. Start with the lowest fare, no-one will complain. Then up it by 10c every so often until you get it to where it works best.

n97 mini · 17-01-2012 10:39am

bk wrote: »

However obviously the transport company makes more money if the bus is full of high paying long distance passengers,

That makes no sense. Since the short distance passengers pay more per km with relatively higher fares, it's a lot more lucrative to have a short fare get off and another short fare get on to replace them. i.e. two short fares over the journey will provide more revenue than one long fare.

the groutch · 17-01-2012 12:20pm

n97 mini wrote: »

That makes no sense. Since the short distance passengers pay more per km with relatively higher fares, it's a lot more lucrative to have a short fare get off and another short fare get on to replace them. i.e. two short fares over the journey will provide more revenue than one long fare.

not necessarily if it leads to longer dwell times
that's the crux of Network Direct, covering the route quicker to reduce the number of buses needed on a route to meet the timetable

bk · 17-01-2012 12:36pm

n97 mini wrote: »

That makes no sense. Since the short distance passengers pay more per km with relatively higher fares, it's a lot more lucrative to have a short fare get off and another short fare get on to replace them. i.e. two short fares over the journey will provide more revenue than one long fare.

You are correct in theory, but that doesn't happen in reality, not how Dublin is laid out. Most people get on and off at the city center. Someone going a short distance from the city is taking up the space of a higher paying long distance traveller. Once outside the city, you are very unlikely to pick up more passengers heading in that direction.

Think of the madness of the city center fare:

1) A big group of people board the 16a at Georges St, heading north, filling the bus and only paying the city centre fare.
2) The full bus now passes all the stops in the city center (Westmoreland ST, O'Connell St, etc.), potentially leaving behind high paying customers heading to the airport for instance.
3) All those city centre fare people get off at Parnell Square. The bus now runs empty for the rest of it's journey, as people rarely board going outwards from the city centre, once your are outside the city centre.

AlekSmart · 17-01-2012 6:29pm

the groutch wrote: »

We all knew that was coming anyway, I'd say we'll see a €22 travel 90 (or possible elimination), and a €125 or €130 30 day rambler if the cash fare increases are anything to go by

From what I can determine,there may be a bit of ...erm..."athmosphere" between the NTA and DB over the T90 pricing issue.

Currently the T90 offers seriously good value for c.75% of dailycash-paying bus users.

If a pasenger is a Bus-Only customer at the €1.90,€2.15 and €2.65 fares then the T90 at €19 represents serious value,which can be extended further if the Transferability option is used.

Used in this manner,it knocks LeapCard into a cocked-hat in terms of value.

However,I suspect that the penny has dropped in the NTA that Bus Only users have plumped substantially for the T90 over the less viable LeapCard,and this has led to a stall in sales,only curtailed by T90's selling-out in some locations.

Therefore I would suspect that some arm-twisting,sorry...intensive negotiation has been in progress which,I think,will see the T90 go to €24 and made available on LeapCard only.

The notion here is to ensure that Public Transport users do not recieve too much leeway in terms of non-cash discount,a principle which the NTA have outlined in respect of the Luas fare increase.

The very thought that Public Transport fares should be kept at the lowest possible rate is regarded as heretical by many of these regulatory types,who will continue to add more and more complexity to our existing wheelbarrow full....:rolleyes:

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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