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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    he is not a Tank....

    Yes indeed it is Thomas the Tank engine, as you may recall shortened to Thomas the Tank by the referral to well known Tank engine by Cllr Seamus Kilgannon of Sligo at a meeting of the BMW regional assembly (now defunct last year)

    Here is a photo from the archives of that report in the Roscommon Herald


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    a tank would have no trouble passing over the wrc


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    a tank would have no trouble passing over the wrc

    apart from the Tank trap that will soon appear at Ballyglunin bridge.

    http://www.tuamherald.ie/news/roundup/articles/2015/06/03/4038059-shock-at-plan-not-to-rebuild-bridge-at-ballyglunin-after-road-works/


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    The last word before Yuletide.

    The Western Development commission issued a press release about the new report on freight in the West of Ireland last week - Not a mention of the quadrupling of freight volume which West on Track said the report forecasts in a press release posted on the WOT FB page - The report by the way doesn't forecast any such growth it merely speculates what might happen if certain circumstances existed. The WDC press release is singularly absent in any mention of the Western Rail Corridor; the WDC may publicly support the WRC but as it's executive and management is made up of civil servants who can read, they know the writing on the wall! Followers of this thread may recall that at the Oireachtas Transport committee meeting back in March West on Track were very bullish about what this report was going to say about freight, they almost made it sound like a done deal that this report was going to be a great flag waving opportunity. It's not, it's a damp squib. Thankfully the report is quite realistic in expectations for freight and it was outside the remit of the report to make any recommendations about future rail infrastructure. Also thankfully the Invitation to tender for this report was published on this thread which allowed for closer scrutiny of the process of the report being published and allowed for other pressure groups and opinion formers to contact the author of the report, to say they too were stakeholders in issues such as the Western Rail Corridor; The WDC had named West on Track as stakeholders in their brief to the report writer; they are not freight operators nor involved in supply chain logistics they are lobbyists not stakeholders; this was pointed out to the WDC and it was explained to the project manager at the WDC that if WOT were named as stakeholders then the greenway campaign for this reason was every bit as much a stakeholder and this is why the greenway option is mentioned in the report, because I was interviewed by the author to give the views of greenway lobbyists, thankfully the report writer included the idea of a Greenway on the closed railway line in his report.

    There has been very little coverage of this report in the regional press. It would appear that West on Tracks optimistic forecasts about a report that would vindicate their cause has disappointed. Thankfully also the WDC has not been the mouthpiece for more propaganda about the WRC.

    Please read the WDC press release here and come to your own conclusions.

    Happy Christmas everyone, including the folk in Claremorris who I am sure read this thread. Don't choke on the turkey. The Greenway campaign has had a good year, I wonder what the state of play will be next Christmas, probably nothing will have changed!

    http://www.wdc.ie/category/news/


  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭bagels


    westtip wrote: »
    .....Happy Christmas everyone, including the folk in Claremorris who I am sure read this thread. Don't choke on the turkey.

    LOL, I love it :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    There is another issue that occurs to me and that maybe needs airing.
    Irish Rail, or the dogs in the street, could have told us what the report tells us -- that any realistic increase in freight tonnage in that region can be more than adequately catered for by the existing lightly-used system. Why then, in times of scarce resources, did the wdc spend €17k of taxpayer funds on a consultancy report that (judging by the crowing done by wot in advance of publication) seems to have been designed only to bolster the case for opening the wrc, or to effectively block the greenway project?
    It is increasingly clear to any logical person that wrc has undue influence within some local and regional authorities, following on from the velorail greenway-blocking project in mayo and now this debacle of a report. It's about time that the greenway/railway issue was looked at on its merits, and that the use of taxpayer funds to stop greenway development ceased.
    Is this something for the comptroller and auditor general to consider?
    westtip wrote: »
    The last word before Yuletide.

    The Western Development commission issued a press release about the new report on freight in the West of Ireland last week - Not a mention of the quadrupling of freight volume which West on Track said the report forecasts in a press release posted on the WOT FB page - The report by the way doesn't forecast any such growth it merely speculates what might happen if certain circumstances existed. The WDC press release is singularly absent in any mention of the Western Rail Corridor; the WDC may publicly support the WRC but as it's executive and management is made up of civil servants who can read, they know the writing on the wall! Followers of this thread may recall that at the Oireachtas Transport committee meeting back in March West on Track were very bullish about what this report was going to say about freight, they almost made it sound like a done deal that this report was going to be a great flag waving opportunity. It's not, it's a damp squib. Thankfully the report is quite realistic in expectations for freight and it was outside the remit of the report to make any recommendations about future rail infrastructure. Also thankfully the Invitation to tender for this report was published on this thread which allowed for closer scrutiny of the process of the report being published and allowed for other pressure groups and opinion formers to contact the author of the report, to say they too were stakeholders in issues such as the Western Rail Corridor; The WDC had named West on Track as stakeholders in their brief to the report writer; they are not freight operators nor involved in supply chain logistics they are lobbyists not stakeholders; this was pointed out to the WDC and it was explained to the project manager at the WDC that if WOT were named as stakeholders then the greenway campaign for this reason was every bit as much a stakeholder and this is why the greenway option is mentioned in the report, because I was interviewed by the author to give the views of greenway lobbyists, thankfully the report writer included the idea of a Greenway on the closed railway line in his report.

    There has been very little coverage of this report in the regional press. It would appear that West on Tracks optimistic forecasts about a report that would vindicate their cause has disappointed. Thankfully also the WDC has not been the mouthpiece for more propaganda about the WRC.

    Please read the WDC press release here and come to your own conclusions.

    Happy Christmas everyone, including the folk in Claremorris who I am sure read this thread. Don't choke on the turkey. The Greenway campaign has had a good year, I wonder what the state of play will be next Christmas, probably nothing will have changed!

    http://www.wdc.ie/category/news/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Muckyboots


    westtip wrote: »
    The last word before Yuletide.

    The Western Development commission issued a press release about the new report on freight in the West of Ireland last week - Not a mention of the quadrupling of freight volume which West on Track said the report forecasts in a press release posted on the WOT FB page
    http://www.wdc.ie/category/news/

    Hang on there now. With the abject failure of the WDC report to big up the WOT campaign, Cllr Sean Canney has said, at the Tuam Area Council meeting, that there will be figures released in January from the Limerick- Galway line that will surprise everyone. Obviously he knows what those figures will be, being the well established insider that he is, but the common folk who's taxes subsidise these figures will have to wait until the spin-doctors have had a chance do a forensic and try and dress them up as success. They are irrelevant to the case for Greenway or Rail north of Athenry anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    Nobody believes their spinning any more.
    Attempts to dress up the pathetic usage levels on Ennis-Athenry by fudging and adding Athenry-galway traffic to the mix cut no ice with anyone. Nobody believes this stuff.
    It is interesting though how much inside information these guys have in advance of the people who pay for their madcap scheme. It bears out what I said earlier about what I consider an abuse of taxpayer funds on meaningless reports like the wot-inspired freight report debacle.
    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Hang on there now. With the abject failure of the WRD report to big up the WOT campaign, Cllr Sean Canney has said, at the Tuam Area Council meeting, that there will be figures released in January from the Limerick- Galway line that will surprise everyone. Obviously he knows what those figures will be, being the well established insider that he is, but the common folk who's taxes subsidise these figures will have to wait until the spin-doctors have had a chance do a forensic and try and dress them up as success. They are irrelevant to the case for Greenway or Rail north of Athenry anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Muckyboots wrote: »
    Hang on there now. With the abject failure of the WDC report to big up the WOT campaign, Cllr Sean Canney has said, at the Tuam Area Council meeting, that there will be figures released in January from the Limerick- Galway line that will surprise everyone. Obviously he knows what those figures will be, being the well established insider that he is, but the common folk who's taxes subsidise these figures will have to wait until the spin-doctors have had a chance do a forensic and try and dress them up as success. They are irrelevant to the case for Greenway or Rail north of Athenry anyway.

    They shroud knowledge in mystery. Anyone can get hold of the passenger figures on Limerick-Galway, you just ask Irish Rail for them and they will give them. Last year on year figures I heard was Ennis Athenry was up to about 50,000 passenger journies per annum from about 37,000 the year before. The rise was largely due to what is now a seemingly permanent price reduction to use the line. 50,000 journies per annum represents 50% of the original year one forecast of 100,000 passenger journies when opened in 2010 and 20% of the forecast year five passenger journies of 250,000.

    If achieving 20% of your target is a success, whoopee. The percentage figure west on track will focus on in January is the % increase from 37,000 to 50,000. They used this in their presentation to Sligo coco and said it is the fastest growing usage of any route on the network. Increasing passenger usage by a handful of passengers per train is not a success story.

    WOT will spin it for all they are worth, but nobody will listen to the nonsense they come up with anymore, except a few cllrs still claiming expenses for pointless Western inter county railway committee meetings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭elastico


    westtip wrote: »
    Anyone can get hold of the passenger figures on Limerick-Galway,
    .

    I am not sure they can. I travelled the line recently and there was no ticket inspection on the train. Any travel pass holders or season ticket holders etc. just boarded the train at the various stations and when they exited in Galway nobody was counting them.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    elastico wrote: »
    I am not sure they can. I travelled the line recently and there was no ticket inspection on the train. Any travel pass holders or season ticket holders etc. just boarded the train at the various stations and when they exited in Galway nobody was counting them.

    I would assume they have a formula for adding these passengers on to daily ticket sales . Fairly easy to reckon a season ticket would make 10 journeys a week (or 5 return if you prefer) on 48 weeks or so a year


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    I would assume they have a formula for adding these passengers on to daily ticket sales . Fairly easy to reckon a season ticket would make 10 journeys a week (or 5 return if you prefer) on 48 weeks or so a year
    I reckon most people buy tickets or have season tickets. There will always be a small percentage that take a chance, but this would be the same over all routes so for comparison purposes they would be irrelevant.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,592 ✭✭✭elastico


    I would assume they have a formula for adding these passengers on to daily ticket sales . Fairly easy to reckon a season ticket would make 10 journeys a week (or 5 return if you prefer) on 48 weeks or so a year

    Perhaps with season ticket holders, but with OAP's there might not be. And there seems to be a lot of OAPs and people with companion passes using the train. Which is all fine except none of them are revenue generating passengers anyway.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    I thought OAPs still had to get a ticket, even if it is free. They are indeed revenue generating as the subvention the Railway gets pays for these passengers. Without them there would be no subsidy and a much poorer service.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    I thought OAPs still had to get a ticket, even if it is free. They are indeed revenue generating as the subvention the Railway gets pays for these passengers. Without them there would be no subsidy and a much poorer service.

    A fixed subsidy that hasnt increased in years can't be used to try claim support for a new line though


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    The bottom line in any case is that the service is lightly used; you only have to look around any carriage on a normal daytime trip; it's easy to practically have a carriage to yourself. No matter how much they spin the figures, this project has been a total flop and a waste of money, as well as continuing to suck up substantial amounts of ongoing subsidy.
    Everyone knows that, and everyone knows that no government will repeat the mistake, do why does this small group continue not only to campaign for a railway but also to campaign against alternative and viable uses for the route?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eastwest wrote: »
    why does this small group continue not only to campaign for a railway but also to campaign against alternative and viable uses for the route?

    because its for da wesht and Dublin has the Dart and Luas, Da wesht will starve without the Western Rail corridor, Sure don't you know that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 630 ✭✭✭bagels


    eastwest wrote: »
    .....why does this small group (of Cllrs) continue not only to campaign for a railway but also to campaign against alternative and viable uses for the route?
    westtip wrote: »
    because its for da wesht and Dublin has the Dart and Luas, Da wesht will starve without the Western Rail corridor, Sure don't you know that.

    Some of these Cllrs have run for the Dail before and some are running in the next general election. Cllr Canney is convinced he'll get elected this time but he's in for a big shock. He blackguarded the people of Tuam over the Palace Road vandalism and together with his huge opposition to the Greenway he's sure to lose a few hundred votes.

    Cllr Des Joyce from the Ming Flanagan/Michael Fitzmaurice camp opposes the Greenway too, yet Ming and Michael are pro Greenway. Des owns a nursing home. Perhaps he doesn't want us to be fit and healthy, perhaps he'd prefer us to age prematurely and end up in his nursing home for decades? What say you Des?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    bagels wrote: »
    Some of these Cllrs have run for the Dail before and some are running in the next general election. Cllr Canney is convinced he'll get elected this time but he's in for a big shock. He blackguarded the people of Tuam over the Palace Road vandalism and together with his huge opposition to the Greenway he's sure to lose a few hundred votes.

    Cllr Des Joyce from the Ming Flanagan/Michael Fitzmaurice camp opposes the Greenway too, yet Ming and Michael are pro Greenway. Des owns a nursing home. Perhaps he doesn't want us to be fit and healthy, perhaps he'd prefer us to age prematurely and end up in his nursing home for decades? What say you Des?

    Canney has zero chance of getting elected to the Dail. His best chance would actually have been to save some face in Tuam by backing the greenway, but Tuam will give him a roasting at the polls.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    have a carriage to yourself

    you'd shut most of irish railways at certain times of the day with that citeria


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    BoatMad wrote: »
    you'd shut most of irish railways at certain times of the day with that citeria

    Not in my experience.
    There's a big difference between empty trains running back following a full load outbound at certain times of the day and the constant emptiness you find on the wrc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    eastwest wrote: »
    Not in my experience.
    There's a big difference between empty trains running back following a full load outbound at certain times of the day and the constant emptiness you find on the wrc.

    and , unfortunately , other lines. What to do? market lines much more effectively or pull the plug and concentrate resources where they have the greatest effect.?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    and , unfortunately , other lines. What to do? market lines much more effectively or pull the plug and concentrate resources where they have the greatest effect.?


    unfortunately in ireland pulling the plug doesn't equal resources concentrated everywhere else or if it does it makes not one jot of difference. it also allows IE to get working on the next one they want rid of. well from my experience anyway

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!





  • unfortunately in ireland pulling the plug doesn't equal resources concentrated everywhere else or if it does it makes not one jot of difference. it also allows IE to get working on the next one they want rid of. well from my experience anyway
    I suppose it depends on what their objective is, is it to provide a service or to make money. It is not possible to do both on all their routes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    but of a better service could be delivered to the maximum number of people.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    but of a better service could be delivered to the maximum number of people.....
    but its very unlikely it will be delivered. what was got in return for closing the likes of athlone mullingar or later, rosslare waterford for example? ditto what went in the 60s/70s
    I suppose it depends on what their objective is, is it to provide a service or to make money. It is not possible to do both on all their routes.
    i don't know do they even know what their objective is tbh.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    what was got for closing Rosslare Waterford as Ennis to Athenry!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    and , unfortunately , other lines. What to do? market lines much more effectively or pull the plug and concentrate resources where they have the greatest effect.?

    Yes, that's essentially government policy now, as stated by the last few ministers.
    There is a willingness to try to make loss-making routes pay their way to some extent, as with Ennis Athenry, but they definitely won't open any more lines that will immediately suck up huge resources in subsidy.
    Alan Kelly said when he was in charge (referring to Ennis-Athenry) that it is there now, so we should try to make use of it, but it was a mistake that won't be repeated.
    It is clear to all but the most dedicated rail lobbyists that this is the way things are going to be. If there is ever investment in rail in Ireland again it will be somewhere like Dublin Airport, where the numbers might justify it; it certainly won't be somewhere that a private operator with a minibus could service without any subsidy and without any capital investment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,048 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    eastwest wrote: »
    It is clear to all but the most dedicated rail lobbyists that this is the way things are going to be. If there is ever investment in rail in Ireland again it will be somewhere like Dublin Airport, where the numbers might justify it; it certainly won't be somewhere that a private operator with a minibus could service without any subsidy and without any capital investment.

    Funnily enough, all those years ago, it was rail lobbyists saying no to the WRC.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/group-opposed-to-sligo-rail-network-1.1138443


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    Grandeeod wrote: »
    Funnily enough, all those years ago, it was rail lobbyists saying no to the WRC.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/group-opposed-to-sligo-rail-network-1.1138443

    That was different though; that was the rail lobby that was based on reality.


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