Breeding age - when is it to old?

Son Of A Vidic · 13-09-2010 7:09pm #1

What is the cut off age for a dogs first litter of pups? I changed vet recently and he suggested up to 10 years would be fine for a first litter of pups. I have a 7 year old GSD Bitch and was wondering about breeding her. The thought of her not passing on her magnificent intelligence and great temperment seems like a tremendous waste. Any info or advice appreciated here.

anniehoo · 13-09-2010 7:15pm

10 :eek: no way thats far too old.Many breeds barely get to 10 nevermind breeding at that age. 5 or 6 is generally the cut off age, possibly 7 depending on the breed.

ISDW · 13-09-2010 7:28pm

I thought the cut off for registering a litter with the IKC was 7, but thats just off the top of my head.

Great that she's intelligent and has a fantastic temperament, whats her hip score?

I can't believe a vet would say 10. The way I'd look at it is, what if something went wrong and she had to have a c-section, would you feel confident that she's fit enough at that age to cope with the general anaesthetic etc?

lorebringer · 13-09-2010 7:34pm

From IKC code of ethics:

(http://ikc.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=43&Itemid=60)

I shall not mate from any bitch kept by me (a) under one year of age, (b) or over eight years of age, (c) for not more than six litters, (d) or dogs over the age of twelve years. Permission must be sought and granted by the Irish Kennel Club to exceed these provisions.

Personally, I wouldn't breed a bitch over 6/7, maybe 8 at a push, depending on breed. 10 seems very old.

anniehoo · 13-09-2010 7:48pm

lorebringer wrote: »

I shall not mate from any bitch kept by me (a) under one year of age, (b) or over eight years of age, (c) for not more than six litters, (d) or dogs over the age of twelve years. Permission must be sought and granted by the Irish Kennel Club to exceed these provisions.

I must be reading that weirdly..whats the difference between b and d? If you cant breed over 8 y.o why does it state not over 12 aswell?

lorebringer · 13-09-2010 7:51pm

anniehoo wrote: »

I must be reading that weirdly..whats the difference between b and d? If you cant breed over 8 y.o why does it state not over 12 aswell?

Females over 8 and males over 12

filo87 · 13-09-2010 7:52pm

anniehoo wrote: »

I must be reading that weirdly..whats the difference between b and d? If you cant breed over 8 y.o why does it state not over 12 aswell?

D refers to the male dog I think.

anniehoo · 13-09-2010 8:23pm

Duh! Bitch and dog...god my brains half asleep!:o

andreac · 13-09-2010 8:28pm

If your bitch has never had a litter at this age then absol do not breed from her.
If she has had a litter or 2 then you could possibly breed up to the age of 7 but i certainly wouldnt risk it with my bitch at that age as its far too risky..

Have you had your bitch hip scored? This is an absol must with GSD's as they suffer from bad hips so they must be hip scored before even thinking about breeding from them.

I would seriously question any vet that would recommend a bitch have a first litter at 10

dollydishmop · 13-09-2010 9:02pm

The only bitch I would consider mating at 7yrs is a bitch that has had at least one litter already.

Mating a maiden bitch at 7yrs old is incredibly dangerous. Mating a maiden bitch at 10yrs old...erm...no sorry, the words I'd need to express my thoughts on such a preposterous idea would bring me a permanent ban from Boards.ie :eek:

Your vet sounds like he needs to find a different career! Something where he can do less potential harm IMHO.

When I was active in showing/breeding my personal rule of thumb was that I wouldn't let a bitch have her maiden litter over the age of 3½-4yrs !!
If she hadn't had a litter by then, for whatever reason, she was spayed....so that then there wasn't even a risk of an accidental mating which would cause her to have her maiden litter at an age I would consider too old.

boxerly · 13-09-2010 9:22pm

10 ???????????????? WTF.....no way.......thats not right,no dog sould have pups at that stage of her life

((

jap gt · 13-09-2010 9:27pm

purely out of interest, if 7 is the oldest whats the youngest

andreac · 13-09-2010 9:29pm

jap gt wrote: »

purely out of interest, if 7 is the oldest whats the youngest

I wouldnt breed a bitch under 2 and for larger breeds i would wait until they are nearly 3 as they take longer to mature.

Knine · 13-09-2010 9:46pm

andreac wrote: »

I wouldnt breed a bitch under 2 and for larger breeds i would wait until they are nearly 3 as they take longer to mature.

Agree with this.

Unfortunately lots of people don't register their litters to avoid following codes of ethics. Another reason to alway buy from a reputable breeder.

I would however use a dog over 12 if he was capable particularly if he is a breed of dog who is short lived e.g. CKCS in the hope that his offspring will be also long lived, of course he would have to be free of any breed specific health issues.

I do feel 6 litters of pups is too much from one bitch though and in the OPs situation I think 7 years is too old for a first litter.

lorebringer · 13-09-2010 10:27pm

jap gt wrote: »

purely out of interest, if 7 is the oldest whats the youngest

IKC rules state 1 year - personally, I wouldn't dream of breeding a bitch under about 2.5 years old and only then if relevant health screening has been done. Health problems have a terrible habit of rearing their heads around this age (and often even later) so testing is essential.

Son Of A Vidic · 13-09-2010 10:40pm

ISDW wrote: »

I can't believe a vet would say 10,

I thought this didn't seem right, that's why I posted it here. So it's beginning to look like I've wasted excellent genes. Thanks for all your advice so far on this. I can asure you, I know the recommended breeding standard for quality GSD's, hip scores etc. Keep it coming your input is a real help.

andreac · 13-09-2010 10:46pm

medicman2009 wrote: »

I thought this didn't seem right, that's why I posted it here. So it's beginning to look like I've wasted excellent genes. Thanks for all your advice so far on this. I can asure you, I know the recommended breeding standard for quality GSD's, hip scores etc. Keep it coming your input is a real help.

Sorry, but genes arent everything, they actually only count for something only if the dog is of good quality conformation, temperament and health wise. You can have all the genes you want but it doesnt mean a dog should be bred from.
You can have a fabulous dog on paper but it could have serious health problems, defects or faults and a bad temperament so genes really dont mean anything unless its the total package so thats why breeding should only be done when everything is taken into consideration.

Son Of A Vidic · 13-09-2010 11:26pm

andreac wrote: »

Sorry, but genes arent everything.

I think you've misunderstood my use of the term 'genes'? This was used figuratively, if you read my first post you will note I mentioned my GSD has an excellent temperment and is a highly intelligent girl. Now combine this with her prime condition, hip score etc, she would be ideal for breeding. My use of the term 'genes' refers to her temperment, intelligence, excellent physical condition/characteristics etc. So if she is to old to breed? Then I have wasted a potential opportunity to pass on all these qualities to a future generation.

Sigma Force · 14-09-2010 12:07am

I can see where you are coming from Medicman, but it wouldn't be fair on her at her age. 10 is a great age and just enjoy her for her.

To be honest though it might be better to have her spayed at her age older dogs are prone to reproductive cancers, mammary tumours etc.

Shocked that a vet would suggest 10 is ok to breed, would be changing my vet.

In a way though you have a point there seems to be an awful lot of GSDs with terrible hip problems, some don't live past their youth, one gorgeous dog, lovely temperament at a vets one of the days he was around a year old and the poor fella was already in a bad way and had to have regular injections. Poor dog won't see his 3rd birthday I rekon.
So having a healthy gene pool is important but to make it official your pooch would have had to of been regd. etc. etc.

oppenheimer1 · 14-09-2010 12:16am

Surely the vet would know best seeing as he has hands on experience with the animal and would know how fit she is. Its healthcare so rules of thumb are guidelines. Your vet says its ok so I would trust their professional opinion, however if in doubt bring her to another vet for a second opinion.

Whispered · 14-09-2010 12:26am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Surely the vet would know best seeing as he has hands on experience with the animal .

I would usually agree because I'd trust my vet 100%, but the OP just changed vets so may not have that level of trust.

OP if you really really want to breed your dog, I think you should seek a second opinion and be very aware of any risks you are putting on your pet. Make sure you know just how much work you and this older lady will have to put into rising her pups and how that can take a toll on her body.

Arm yourself with all of the facts possible and then decide if it's worth risking it.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider it, but I'm not in your position so I can't really comment on that, just please make sure you know exactly what you're getting into if you decide to go ahead.

Son Of A Vidic · 14-09-2010 12:39am

I'm thinking about going back to her original Vet alright, they're 30 miles away but it would be worth it. As much as I'd loved to breed her, her health will come first over my desire to breed.

Whispered · 14-09-2010 12:59am

I think thats the best bet OP. At least you will know then. If your original vet says that your dog shouldn't be bred from, would you then consider not going back to the vet who said that she can be bred from?

Son Of A Vidic · 14-09-2010 1:09am

Whispered wrote: »

I think thats the best bet OP. At least you will know then. If your original vet says that your dog shouldn't be bred from, would you then consider not going back to the vet who said that she can be bred from?

Actually I think I will be moving back to the original vet, regardless of what they recommend. They just seem to have a much more professional set up than my current one.

Zapperzy · 14-09-2010 1:24am

Anyone know why there is an upward age limit for male dogs?

Surely it doesn't actually cause them any harm if they are over 12, especially a small dog such as a chihuahua where 12 could be considered as middle age. And surely if the dog lives to be over 12 then it obviously isin't riddled with genetic illnesses that shorten some dog's lifespans. So would it not make better sense to breed from older male dogs?

Please correct me if Im wrong.

boxerly · 14-09-2010 4:08am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Surely the vet would know best seeing as he has hands on experience with the animal and would know how fit she is. Its healthcare so rules of thumb are guidelines. Your vet says its ok so I would trust their professional opinion, however if in doubt bring her to another vet for a second opinion.

In my experience a vet isnt always right.Vets differ and dogs die because of it.Anybody with any real love for their pet would not breed a 10 year old bitch.Its cruel IMHO.

oppenheimer1 · 14-09-2010 5:49am

boxerly wrote: »

In my experience a vet isnt always right.Vets differ and dogs die because of it.Anybody with any real love for their pet would not breed a 10 year old bitch.Its cruel IMHO.

The dog in question is 7. Yes, professionals make errors of judgement but what is the point in seeking professional opinion if its going to be ignored. OP said he was going to seek a second opinion, which is the correct course of action imo. We do not know the health of this animal and only the vet and the owner who have intimate knowledge of the bitch are qualified to make a call on this issue.

lrushe · 14-09-2010 6:39am

medicman2009 wrote: »

it's beginning to look like I've wasted excellent genes.

If you like your girls breeding so much why don't you go back to her breeder, he will most likely have close relations of hers. You could get a dog of similiar breeding, start from scratch, showing, health testing, maybe even some working titles then think about breeding.
The dog you have now is 7, regardless of your vets second opinion I personally wouldn't breed her now I'd spay her and let her live out her retirement and begin again with a younger dog.

lisasimps · 14-09-2010 1:31pm

Op to be honest I work with dogs full time, and have for years. About 90% of the German Shepherds I have come across have had lovely temperments, and have been extremely intelligent!!! They are just a fab breed.

With the amount of dogs being surrendered to pounds and shelters I think it would be a bad choice for anyone to breed litters at the moment unless they have enough potential homes (that have been home checked).

With breeds like German Shepherds you need to be sure that anyone buying a pup knows the breed, and will put the time in to training the dog and following all the (stupid) laws that come with the breed. It would be awful to think that any of your dogs puppies could end up in the pound or in the wrong hands.

In my opinion you should just be very grateful that you have such a fantastic dog, and forget about all the hassle of getting to know her pups and then having to give them away (thats assuming you'd find good homes for them and you aren't left with a house full of dogs

)

Knine · 14-09-2010 1:41pm

Zapperzy wrote: »

Anyone know why there is an upward age limit for male dogs? Surely it doesn't actually cause them any harm if they are over 12, especially a small dog such as a chihuahua where 12 could be considered as middle age. And surely if the dog lives to be over 12 then it obviously isin't riddled with genetic illnesses that shorten some dog's lifespans. So would it not make better sense to breed from older male dogs? Please correct me if Im wrong.

No you are not wrong. The recommened age is 12 but you can get permission to use older males. For example if you have a CKC that is 13 years (which would be rare) and he is free from heart issues and Syringomyelia, and he is phyically capable then he could be used at stud to help produce long lived healthy pups rather than using a 2 year old dog whose heart murmur has not yet become apparent.

You will often find certain lines of Great Danes, Boxers, Rottweilers etc that are much longer lived than other lines because this is inherited in the puppies.

Son Of A Vidic · 14-09-2010 2:49pm

lisasimps wrote: »

With breeds like German Shepherds you need to be sure that anyone buying a pup knows the breed, and will put the time in to training the dog and following all the (stupid) laws that come with the breed. It would be awful to think that any of your dogs puppies could end up in the pound or in the wrong hands.

Your're absolutely right there, it's unlikely I'll breed my girl now, But I'll get a second vetinary opinion on this. I have a bunch of close family/friends who adore my dog and were in line for her pups. But if I do breed from another bitch at a future date, a buyers love, knowledge and experience of the GSD would be the big criteria for me.

Breeding age - when is it to old?

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