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orange provocation

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Comments

  • #422
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    There are BAD apples in UK basket, grown up kids, people who think that Britain is at the center of the Universe, who think that they can get away with crimes (let’s call burning flags the way it is described).

    They may well be idiots, provocateurs, and bigots, but that still doesn't make flag burning a crime in NI.


  • #423
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    kryogen wrote: »
    No the 12th is about celebrating the Battle of the Boyne.

    What happened there exactly? No conquering?

    No. One British king defeated another British king. Nothing foreign was conquered.


  • #424
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    alastair wrote: »
    They may well be idiots, provocateurs, and bigots, but that still doesn't make flag burning a crime in NI.


    being a bigot is not a crime ?


  • #425
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    billybudd wrote: »
    being a bigot is not a crime ?

    No, it's not.


  • #426
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    alastair wrote: »
    They may well be idiots, provocateurs, and bigots, but that still doesn't make flag burning a crime in NI.


    Sorry but it is up to a court of law to determine whether it is or not as it could be deemed to be an act of incite to hate.


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  • #427
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    alastair wrote: »
    Did Slovaks stop being from Czechoslovakia in '92? I'd say they did.
    You are getting you analogies mixed up, a better one would be did people from Dresden stop being German in 1949 or was it people from Hamburg who suddenly stopped being German. Take your pick.
    And a better question is did Czecks stop being Czeck and Slovaks stop being Slovakian with the advent of Czechoslovakia.

    Surely since it was the situation in the republic that changed in 1922 it is us who are Southern Irish and the northern Irish people are just Irish, as they always were.


  • #428
    billybudd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭billybudd


    alastair wrote: »
    No, it's not.


    Again it can be under many elements of the law.


  • #429
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    billybudd wrote: »
    Sorry but it is up to a court of law to determine whether it is or not as it could be deemed to be an act of incite to hate.

    You could say the same of any notional scenario, but let's look at the reality - flags are burned regularly in the UK, have been for donkeys, and no-one is ever prosecuted. It's not a crime.


  • #430
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    billybudd wrote: »
    Again it can be under many elements of the law.

    Such as?


  • #431
    kryogen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,953 ✭✭✭✭kryogen


    alastair wrote: »
    No. One British king defeated another British king. Nothing foreign was conquered.

    So the Orange Order don't remember it as a great victory over the Catholics then?

    It wasn't the Catholic King James trying to regain his throne from his deposer the Protestant William of Orange?

    Ah look, there is too much for me to list out here tbh cause I have to go, but have a read up on it yourself if you don't believe it was a conquering.


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  • #432
    Jimmy Garlic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,349 ✭✭✭Jimmy Garlic


    We are witnessing the death throes of a dying orginisation. The Orange order is withering away bit by bit and not before time. A a dying wasp is more prone to stinging.


  • #433
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    alastair wrote: »
    Did Slovaks stop being from Czechoslovakia in '92? I'd say they did.

    Poland was stripped apart few times by Russians and Germans for hundreds of year’s number of powers wiped our country from Europe’s maps numerous times.
    We never stopped being Polish regardless who was occupying our country.
    Hundreds of years, few wars including 2 World Wars and no one managed to wipe our National believes.


  • #434
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    kryogen wrote: »
    So the Orange Order don't remember it as a great victory over the Catholics then?

    It wasn't the Catholic King James trying to regain his throne from his deposer the Protestant William of Orange?

    Ah look, there is too much for me to list out here tbh cause I have to go, but have a read up on it yourself if you don't believe it was a conquering.

    Is this the same king James that "wrote" bible?


  • #435
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    alastair wrote: »
    You could say the same of any notional scenario, but let's look at the reality - flags are burned regularly in the UK, have been for donkeys, and no-one is ever prosecuted. It's not a crime.

    WRONG!

    “Under the Law of the United Kingdom, "incitement to racial hatred" was established as an offence by the provisions of §§ 17-29 of the Public Order Act 1986. It was first established as a criminal offence in the Race Relations Act 1976. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 made publication of material that incited racial hatred an arrestable offence.”

    What you say proves that Belfast accepts lawlessness and it will be addressed, trust me.


  • #436
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    Your personal opinions about the OO (or your wife's ignorance of their lodges) doesn't really make their existence or beliefs 'protestant nonsense'. There's all kinds of strands to protestantism, and just because this bunch are very keen on one particular angle, and they might represent a small minority in south county Dublin or whatever, doesn't mean they're 'pointless'. You could equally make the same claim for any religious organisation - large or small.

    tbh - your antagonism is what shines through most clearly - and yet you expect more respect from them.

    Your personal opinions are a 'shining' example of somebody who is unable to call a spade a spade. The fact is the OO is a belligerent, frequently rascist organisation, who have, through the abuse of power, over many years built a network of marches across the north. It is understandable that many see these bogus rights as a cultural right, but they are not and more and more moderates are seeing that.

    p.s. what's the membership of the OO in Dublin, Alastair? If so many know about this 'protective' organisation, and they aren't joining that's even more encouraging don't you think, and speaks volumes about 'reasonable' people's ability to integrate and keep their religious identity? Again the moderates in the North can plainly see that we don't bite, another glorious blow for the OO. Strategic move to try and show the Irish government as the bigots. Mega Fail so far. ;)


  • #437
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    CHECK IT OUT - http://www.nio.gov.uk/race_crime_and_sectarian_crime_legislation_in_ni_-_a_consultation_paper.pdf

    RACE CRIME AND SECTARIAN CRIME LEGISLATION IN NORTHERN IRELAND

    “The Public Order Act 1986 defines racial hatred as “hatred against a group of persons in Great Britain defined by reference to colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins”. It provides that a person is guilty of an offence if by his actions he intends to, or is likely to, stir up racial hatred.
    [...]
    Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987, contains similar provisions relating to incitement to racial hatred. It goes beyond the Great Britain legislation both by including the concept of arousing fear along with stirring up hatred and by including religious as well as racial grounds.”


  • #438
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    WRONG!

    “Under the Law of the United Kingdom, "incitement to racial hatred" was established as an offence by the provisions of §§ 17-29 of the Public Order Act 1986. It was first established as a criminal offence in the Race Relations Act 1976. The Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 made publication of material that incited racial hatred an arrestable offence.”

    What you say proves that Belfast accepts lawlessness and it will be addressed, trust me.

    RIGHT!

    What 'racial' flag burning has ever been been prosecuted in the UK?


  • #439
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    alastair wrote: »
    RIGHT!

    What 'racial' flag burning has ever been been prosecuted in the UK?

    I really dont get how you dont think someone who goes out to offend other people are anything other than "£$holes.


  • #440
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Your personal opinions are a 'shining' example of somebody who is unable to call a spade a spade. The fact is the OO is a belligerent, frequently rascist organisation, who have, through the abuse of power, over many years built a network of marches across the north. It is understandable that many see these bogus rights as a cultural right, but they are not and more and more moderates are seeing that.

    p.s. what's the membership of the OO in Dublin, Alastair? If so many know about this 'protective' organisation, and they aren't joining that's even more encouraging don't you think, and speaks volumes about 'reasonable' people's ability to integrate and keep their religious identity? Again the moderates in the North can plainly see that we don't bite, another glorious blow for the OO. Strategic move to try and show the Irish government as the bigots. Mega Fail so far. ;)

    Heh - quite a tirade, but sadly well off the mark.

    How is the OO 'frequently racist'?

    What does it matter how many members they have in Dublin?

    Who ever said that the OO was the sole means of retaining religious identity?

    The hundreds of thousands who come out annually for the twelfth aren't a figment of anyone's imagination are they? Because otherwise, I'd say they they represented a significant enough strand of society on this island - whether you or I care for them or not.


  • #441
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I really dont get how you dont think someone who goes out to offend other people are anything other than "£$holes.

    I do think they're arseholes. I'm just honest enough to recognise that they're not committing a crime by burning flags on their bonfires - Polish, Irish, Palestinian, whatever.


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  • #442
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    We never stopped being Polish regardless who was occupying our country.

    Well done Poles, but no-one is 'occupying' NI any more, but those who do, and don't hold any allegiance to the neighbouring state. If a majority there want to join the republic, it'll happen in a short order.


  • #443
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    alastair wrote: »
    RIGHT!

    What 'racial' flag burning has ever been been prosecuted in the UK?

    You are digging your own grave m8 ;)

    1 MAY 2012
    MAN FAILS TO OVERTURN CONVICTION FOR FLAG DESECRATION - http://www.copfs.gov.uk/News/Releases/2012/05/Man-Fails-Overturn-Conviction-Flag-Desecration


    “At the Court of Appeal in Edinburgh today, Paul Donnachie failed in his bid to overturn his conviction for desecrating the Israeli flag and making offensive comments.
    Following trial last year Donnachie was convicted of acting in a racially aggravated manner with intent to cause distress and alarm and sentenced to a 150 hours Community payback Order.”

    Any other questions???

    You won’t find a better example of "flag desecration" than this...



  • #444
    true
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭true


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    CHECK IT OUT - http://www.nio.gov.uk/race_crime_and_sectarian_crime_legislation_in_ni_-_a_consultation_paper.pdf

    RACE CRIME AND SECTARIAN CRIME LEGISLATION IN NORTHERN IRELAND

    “The Public Order Act 1986 defines racial hatred as “hatred against a group of persons in Great Britain defined by reference to colour, race, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins”. It provides that a person is guilty of an offence if by his actions he intends to, or is likely to, stir up racial hatred.
    [...]
    Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987, contains similar provisions relating to incitement to racial hatred. It goes beyond the Great Britain legislation both by including the concept of arousing fear along with stirring up hatred and by including religious as well as racial grounds.”

    The UK - in which I gather you now live, is actually a very tolerant place, and a democracy. Why did you go to live there otherwise? Minorities over the past number of generations have increased in numbers in all parts of the UK, inc Northern Ireland. Flags of other countries are openly displayed. The UK has a proud history of helping to stand by and do its bit to liberate your country ( Poland ) in WW2. If you want to talk about flag burning, I remember our ex Taoiseach Charles J. Haughey in his younger days burning a union jack in Dublin on the occassion of VE day ( the victory of the Allies in Europe to liberate countries such as yours.) He was rewarded by eventually being made Taoiseach ...after some decades when minorites actually declined in Ireland. Methinks - if you want to give your allegiance to any flag other than your country of birth , TommyPolack, you should be giving it to the flag which governs the country in which you are now living, the UK. :D


  • #445
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    You are digging your own grave m8 ;)

    1 MAY 2012
    MAN FAILS TO OVERTURN CONVICTION FOR FLAG DESECRATION - http://www.copfs.gov.uk/News/Releases/2012/05/Man-Fails-Overturn-Conviction-Flag-Desecration


    “At the Court of Appeal in Edinburgh today, Paul Donnachie failed in his bid to overturn his conviction for desecrating the Israeli flag and making offensive comments.
    Following trial last year Donnachie was convicted of acting in a racially aggravated manner with intent to cause distress and alarm and sentenced to a 150 hours Community payback Order.”

    Any other questions???

    You won’t find a better example of "flag desecration" than this...


    The flag wasn't actually burned in that case, and the case seems to have rested on the fact that Donnachie directed his actions at the individual victim. There are literally scores of flags burned annually on bonfires, and no-one has ever been prosecuted - and it's not like there hasn't been a willingness to pursue legal avenues for point-scoring in local politics.


  • #446
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    alastair wrote: »
    How is the OO 'frequently racist'?
    The little episode outside the church was yet another shining example of rascism and incitement. That isn't isolated, the OO have engaged in that behaviour for decades, my father (an Enniskillen man) had many many worse stories of 12th behaviour, stretching back to the 30's. Open your eyes and ears.
    What does it matter how many members they have in Dublin?

    It shows northern protestants that it is quite possible to practice your religion without fear of 'demonic forces', that archaic fear, promoted and encouraged by the OO. Roman Catholicism has modernised, and so also has protestantism. Harking back to the reformation is completly redundant to progressive modern protestants.
    Who ever said that the OO was the sole means of retaining religious identity?

    The hundreds of thousands who come out annually for the twelfth aren't a figment of anyone's imagination are they? Because otherwise, I'd say they they represented a significant enough strand of society on this island - whether you or I care for them or not.

    You are missing the point, the numbers 'out for a day' are nowhere near what the actual membership of the OO is. Thousands turn out for motor rallies, for GAA games who aren't members of the organising organisation.
    The OO membership is in decline because it cannot....not, 'will not'....CANNOT fuction without it's inherent sectarianism. That is it's reason for exisiting.
    The average reasonable and 'changing' protestant (and they are changing, as the peace grows, it will only speed up) in the North is seeing that, slowly but surely. It's time to roll up the banners, and step into the present and find a way to celebrate your identity that doesn't involve the domination of others. I have faith in people, I think they will find a way to do that. Because standing behind the OO is never gonna work.


  • #447
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    alastair wrote: »
    The flag wasn't actually burned in that case,

    Are you blind?


  • #448
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    The little episode outside the church was yet another shining example of rascism and incitement. That isn't isolated, the OO have engaged in that behaviour for decades, my father (an Enniskillen man) had many many worse stories of 12th behaviour, stretching back to the 30's. Open your eyes and ears.

    My eyes and ears are fine. You're talking about a sectarian act, not a racist one.


  • #449
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,307 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    TommyPolack wrote: »
    Are you blind?

    No. I'm referring to the case you highlighted in response to my comment:
    What 'racial' flag burning has ever been been prosecuted in the UK?


  • #450
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    true wrote: »
    Methinks - if you want to give your allegiance to any flag other than your country of birth you should be giving it to the flag which governs the country in which you are now living,:D

    You wouldn't email the Dublin - Wicklow LOI and tell them that, would you, they are a bit confused?:rolleyes:


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  • #451
    TommyPolack
    Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭TommyPolack


    alastair wrote: »
    The flag wasn't actually burned in that case, and the case seems to have rested on the fact that Donnachie directed his actions at the individual victim. There are literally scores of flags burned annually on bonfires, and no-one has ever been prosecuted - and it's not like there hasn't been a willingness to pursue legal avenues for point-scoring in local politics.

    I have seen everything, it happened in front of my house, I have a nice footage of the whole thing, I have first responds from Polish politicians, Foreign Relations Office, Polish newspapers and more…


    You broke the law and I will make sure that justice will be served. I am surprised that Irish community couldn’t fix it but I will find out. “Dancing” on human rights is not only caveman behavior, it is against the law and this is the only thing I need to go ahead. You don’t know me and you do not know what I am capable of. I won with banks and insurance companies. Do you really think that I won’t win this one?
    Thanks to this conversation I have everything I need to proceed.
    Thank you lads for a wonderful and constructive conversation (excluding those who iincite to crime, “Hate crime” to be exact).


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