A Mere Mention of Abortion.

LittleBook · 09-03-2012 5:49pm

From Wikipedia:

Wrongful birth is a legal cause of action in some common law countries in which the parents of a congenitally diseased child claim that their doctor failed to properly warn of their risk of conceiving or giving birth to a child with serious genetic or congenital abnormalities

The elements of a wrongful birth claim are

- the existence of a patient-doctor relationship between the defendant and the plaintiff;
- the doctor negligently failed to disclose to the prospective parents the risk of having a child with a genetic or congenital disease;
- the plaintiff suffered harm; and
- the doctor’s negligence caused that harm.

Anti Abortion Doctors Could Legally Lie in Arizona

Arizona senators have called for a law that will, if passed, eliminate malpractice suits that are brought on by families that believe doctors willingly withheld information about their unborn children. In instances across the state, some families have sued physicians after giving birth to children with disabilities and handicaps that they believe doctors were aware of before delivery. Some state residents have waged lawsuits based on allegations that physicians were not clear with crucial information which, had the parents been privy to, could have led them to consider abortion.

Parents have filed both “wrongful birth” and “wrongful life” medical malpractice lawsuits over allegations that physicians were not clear or did not properly inform expectant couples that the children in question, while still in the womb, risked complications after birth. Parents have in the past pursued legal action for doctors they allege did not disclose information that could have caused them to abort the child, but if the Arizona bill passes, doctors who lie to parents over the health of a fetus would be free from these suits.

State Senator Nancy Barto, a Republican Party member and sponsor of the bill ... adds, however, that doctors that “intentionally or knowingly” withhold information could still be brought to court for wrongdoings.

Arizone Senate Approves Bill Barring Wrongful Birth Suits Against Doctors

Gilldog · 09-03-2012 6:25pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Its horrible and serves no purpose after the fact. You can't undo it.

Its just another way for them to impose more guilt or shame on the woman getting the procedure.

I am a friend · 11-03-2012 1:51pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

how you would feel if someone you know had one and told you about it..

I dont agree with abortion. Two friends of mine told me they had abortions and while its their choice, I dont agree with that choice.. In saying that, its not my place to judge them or to say anything to them but I personally would have made a different choice to theirs.

I had my first baby lately and believe that he had a right to life from the second he was conceived. when i look at him now, I think how easily his life could have been erased by abortion, if I had chosen to (dunno if that makes sense) at the time.

Two of my friends are adopted and I wonder if times were different back when they were born, if they would be alive now... I think about the contributions they make to the human race and wonder how many other fabulous people are not walking the planet due to abortions...

I guess I think about the human being who will be missing from the planet as a result of the abortion and I dont feel I have the right, in my lifetime, to make the decision to cause that gap.

coffee_cake · 11-03-2012 1:53pm

plenty of could-have-been people don't exist because a couple decided not to have sex that one night or whatever
there's loads of gaps
of all the reasons to be pro life, that doesn't really make any sense

I am a friend · 11-03-2012 2:08pm

bluewolf wrote: »

plenty of could-have-been people don't exist because a couple decided not to have sex that one night or whatever
there's loads of gaps
of all the reasons to be pro life, that doesn't really make any sense

But its my own reason...

cynder · 11-03-2012 2:21pm

bluewolf wrote: »

plenty of could-have-been people don't exist because a couple decided not to have sex that one night or whatever
there's loads of gaps
of all the reasons to be pro life, that doesn't really make any sense

Deciding not to have sex and terminating a pregnancy are totally different things.

*im not pro life!

username123 · 11-03-2012 2:36pm

I am a friend wrote: »

I dont agree with abortion. Two friends of mine told me they had abortions and while its their choice, I dont agree with that choice.. In saying that, its not my place to judge them or to say anything to them but I personally would have made a different choice to theirs.

When I read something like this it makes me think there are really 3 views on abortion.

Theres pro choice.
Theres personal pro life (which is illustrated above)
Theres pro life for all - which in my opinion forces the beliefs of one or some onto all regardless of their wishes.

I respect anyones individual opinion but it does my head in that in this country my choice to have an abortion is prevented by people who wish to impose their own morality on me.

I am a friend wrote: »

I guess I think about the human being who will be missing from the planet as a result of the abortion and I dont feel I have the right, in my lifetime, to make the decision to cause that gap.

I dont think that this is a invalid reason. I can think of plenty of reasons why a person who might have existed might not exist before or after conception or indeed before or after birth, but it doesnt make it any less of a reason.

However, I feel that I do have the right to make that decision, if its my body thats the vessel being used to fill that gap.

coffee_cake · 11-03-2012 2:54pm

grindelwald wrote: »

Deciding not to have sex and terminating a pregnancy are totally different things.

*im not pro life!

I didn't say they weren't

[Deleted User] · 11-03-2012 10:08pm

username123 wrote: »

Theres pro choice.
Theres personal pro life (which is illustrated above)
Theres pro life for all - which in my opinion forces the beliefs of one or some onto all regardless of their wishes.

I respect anyones individual opinion but it does my head in that in this country my choice to have an abortion is prevented by people who wish to impose their own morality on me.

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

If you're pro-choice, then by definition you're free to let everyone think/choose how they want to think/choose for themselves. So it makes sense that you don't really concern yourself with other people's opinions.
If you're pro-life, you see abortion as murder. Surely it makes more sense for a pro-lifer to want to stop murders going on? I can't understand how someone could see abortion as murder but think that it's ok for other people to do it. I don't force my ideas on other people because I'm pro-choice, but I'm only pro-choice (as is the reason for most people I know who are pro-choice) because I don't see it as murder - I don't think it's wrong.

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

Malari · 11-03-2012 11:52pm

But people who are personally pro-life only ARE pro-choice. That's what it means. Pro letting people make their own decisions, whatever they may be.

eviltwin · 11-03-2012 11:58pm

There will always be people who believe their views should be forced on everyone. Hopefully most people are mature and objective enough to know that their choices in life may not always be the right ones or even possible ones for others and that as such other options should be available.

I think its also relevant that a lot of those people have never had a crisis pregnancy and therefore don't really know how they would feel and as a result what they would do.

confusticated · 12-03-2012 12:18am

true-or-false wrote: »

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

If you're pro-choice, then by definition you're free to let everyone think/choose how they want to think/choose for themselves. So it makes sense that you don't really concern yourself with other people's opinions.
If you're pro-life, you see abortion as murder. Surely it makes more sense for a pro-lifer to want to stop murders going on? I can't understand how someone could see abortion as murder but think that it's ok for other people to do it. I don't force my ideas on other people because I'm pro-choice, but I'm only pro-choice (as is the reason for most people I know who are pro-choice) because I don't see it as murder - I don't think it's wrong.

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

I think the "personal pro-lifers" are maybe people who couldn't face an abortion themselves, but wouldn't stop someone else having one? I'd probably count myself under that category, but having said that I've never been faced with the decision.

Not wanting to have an abortion or just not being able to have one doesn't necessarily mean someone sees it as murder.

username123 · 12-03-2012 10:37am

confusticated wrote: »

I think the "personal pro-lifers" are maybe people who couldn't face an abortion themselves, but wouldn't stop someone else having one? I'd probably count myself under that category, but having said that I've never been faced with the decision.

Not wanting to have an abortion or just not being able to have one doesn't necessarily mean someone sees it as murder.

Yes, thats what I meant by the term anyway.

I understand that other people see that as pro choice - which it technically is, but as stated above just because someone wouldnt have one themselves doesnt mean they see it as murder. They have a different viewpoint to both standard pro choice and standard pro life.

Im only entertaining the notion that positions on the subject range beyond the standard pro choice Vs pro life. Its more complex than that I think.

We do have legal abortion in Ireland for particular situations, meaning that the legal position is not strictly pro life either.

newport2 · 12-03-2012 11:02am

true-or-false wrote: »

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

...........

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

Why not?

I'm not comfortable with abortion, but I appreciate that is just my opinion and should not be forced upon other people who disagree, therefore I would be pro-choice.

Just because you don't agree with something or think it's wrong does not necessarily make you want to impose the same view on everyone else irregardless of what they think. You can have your own view on things and still respect other people's views.

gcgirl · 12-03-2012 3:22pm

newport2 wrote: »

true-or-false wrote: »

See I would think the opposite. I don't get it when pro-lifers are ok with other people being pro-choice.

...........

So I just don't get pro-life people who are ok with other people being pro-choice.

Why not?

I'm not comfortable with abortion, but I appreciate that is just my opinion and should not be forced upon other people who disagree, therefore I would be pro-choice.

Just because you don't agree with something or think it's wrong does not necessarily make you want to impose the same view on everyone else irregardless of what they think. You can have your own view on things and still respect other people's views.

Plus a million there

Zulu · 12-03-2012 3:34pm

eviltwin wrote: »

There will always be people who believe their views should be forced on everyone.

Thankfully! And better still, an open democracy enables us to force our beliefs on others. It's one of the most important points of democracy.

newport2 wrote: »

..I appreciate that is just my opinion and should not be forced upon other people who disagree

You are entitled to you opinion, and you shouldn't be afraid to voice it. More to the point, if you believe something, you should be proud to fight for it. Frankly it's your civic duty.
In a democracy your voice shouldn't be silenced.

Morag · 12-03-2012 3:38pm

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to go on a pro choice march?
There have been two prolilfe marches in the last 12 months, the numbers they have get published in the press with photos(usually of kids dragged along) until we get close to the same numbers of people out on the street showing support the notion that there are more pro life people then pro choice people will remain.

tiny_penguin · 12-03-2012 3:57pm

Sharrow wrote: »

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to go on a pro choice march?
There have been two prolilfe marches in the last 12 months, the numbers they have get published in the press with photos(usually of kids dragged along) until we get close to the same numbers of people out on the street showing support the notion that there are more pro life people then pro choice people will remain.

It really bothers me in any protest but especially one like this where such graphic images are used, that people feel it is inappropriate to bring their young children along and expose them to this sort of thing. Also to have images like this on display in public places where children are likely to be. The images are not suitable for small children.

Also the children being forced to take part in the protest are usually not old enough to really understand the issue, and although their parents may have these strong opinions it is not fair to force them onto their children. And IMHO they are just brought along for shock value and to up numbers.

Morag · 12-03-2012 4:04pm

And to try and imply that people who are pro choice are anti children and anti family.

Giselle · 12-03-2012 4:42pm

Sharrow wrote: »

And to try and imply that people who are pro choice are anti children and anti family.

This is why so many people who have serious issues with abortion are reluctant to voice it loudly. Nobody wants to be lumped in with a band of sanctimonious types with photos of dismembered foetus's saying decades of the rosary in public.

I find the subject of abortion very upsetting. More so as pregnancy progresses. Peoples views are very polarised and anti-abortion views usually wind up being labelled with some unflattering stereotype as a knuckle dragging cavewoman who wants to deny people the freedom to enjoy or have domain over their own bodies. Often (not on this thread) the insinuation that you lack understanding or intelligence is made if you aren't liberally pro-choice.

None of that is true of me. Until I definitively know the moment when human life becomes a human being, I will always have conflicting view. I know only one thing for absolute certain. I could not, and would not, have an abortion myself.

That does not mean I condemn those who have abortions, or that I think the present situation is fair. It doesn't even mean that I think abortion is definitively wrong. If at some point, science tells me that the spark of life at conception, or implantation, or seven or twelve weeks is not a human being, doesn't dream, doesn't feel, doesn't deserve the label of humanity, then I could conceivably decide that abortion prior to that moment is acceptable.

But for now, with what I know for sure, my opinion of abortion is that its a human tragedy for all involved. Thats the mother, the father, the wider family, and the would-be baby.

lazygal · 12-03-2012 5:28pm

I'm pregnant and voiced my prochoice views in company recently. Even the most fair minded of the group were aghast that a pregnant woman can see why another woman would need an abortion for ANY reason and wouldn't see it as her place to prevent medical treatment. I was asked repeatedly if being pregnant hadn't given me a different view. It has, its a damn f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months when you're puking for the first four and have backache, hormone craziness and constant urinating to contend with. And I want and planned for this baby. If I wasn't in the happy and privileged position of being able to care for and afford a child, I would be considering all my options.

As I said earlier in the thread, most pro lifers are pro life until the baby is pushed out. Then they don't give a damn about the practicalities of raising a child, beyond platitudes about 'support', 'adoption' and 'cherishing all children'. Who would raise my child for me if I didn't want it? I'm married so can't give it up for adoption. Are the pro lifers on the thread going to help women with unwanted children out in terms of support during the ****tIness that is pregnancy and child rearing?

Malari · 12-03-2012 5:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

I'm pregnant and voiced my prochoice views in company recently. Even the most fair minded of the group were aghast that a pregnant woman can see why another woman would need an abortion for ANY reason and wouldn't see it as her place to prevent medical treatment. I was asked repeatedly if being pregnant hadn't given me a different view. It has, its a damn f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months when you're puking for the first four and have backache, hormone craziness and constant urinating to contend with. And I want and planned for this baby. If I wasn't in the happy and privileged position of being able to care for and afford a child, I would be considering all my options.

As I said earlier in the thread, most pro lifers are pro life until the baby is pushed out. Then they don't give a damn about the practicalities of raising a child, beyond platitudes about 'support', 'adoption' and 'cherishing all children'. Who would raise my child for me if I didn't want it? I'm married so can't give it up for adoption. Are the pro lifers on the thread going to help women with unwanted children out in terms of support during the ****tIness that is pregnancy and child rearing?

I didn't know that was the case.

eviltwin · 12-03-2012 5:56pm

I was already a mother when I had an abortion....in fact a large proportion of women from Ireland travelling have already had kids. The stats now are showing abortions in the teens / 20's are falling and rising in the 35+ group. They probably never expected to find themselves in the situation they were in.

iguana · 12-03-2012 8:16pm

lazygal wrote: »

I'm pregnant and voiced my prochoice views in company recently. Even the most fair minded of the group were aghast that a pregnant woman can see why another woman would need an abortion for ANY reason and wouldn't see it as her place to prevent medical treatment. I was asked repeatedly if being pregnant hadn't given me a different view. It has, its a damn f-ing hard thing to carry a child for nine months when you're puking for the first four and have backache, hormone craziness and constant urinating to contend with. And I want and planned for this baby. If I wasn't in the happy and privileged position of being able to care for and afford a child, I would be considering all my options.

I can't imagine for one tiny second how someone could go through pregnancy if they weren't driven by a desire to have a baby at the end of it. Pregnancy is tough, even women who have an easy pregnancy have a 'comparatively' easy pregnancy, not a symptom free walk in the park. I can't eat because I feel sick but if I don't eat I feel worse. Nothing is appetising, all my favourite foods taste vile. Movement makes me nauseous, smells make me nauseous. I'm constipated to the point of bursting day in day out, I hurt for about 3 minutes before every fart and I fart a lot. My breasts hurt all the time, my stomach hurts a lot of the time. I can't sleep as I have to pee every 12 minutes. I feel rotten around the clock, and being only 6 weeks in, I have it on good authority that it's only going to get worse.

Going through a pregnancy you aren't happy about must be utter, utter hell.

Sharrow wrote: »

I wonder how many people would be brave enough to go on a pro choice march?
There have been two prolilfe marches in the last 12 months, the numbers they have get published in the press with photos(usually of kids dragged along) until we get close to the same numbers of people out on the street showing support the notion that there are more pro life people then pro choice people will remain.

I've campaigned for pro-choice before, extensively during the last referendum as a spokesperson who was on national tv a number of times about it. However I know from experience that on occasion pro-choice demonstrations can face violent opposition and I would have to think long and hard about attending a demonstration as I wouldn't like to endanger my (wanted) pregnancy. My husband and I have discussed the march which was mooted recently and I'm currently planning to go if it happens, but only if he is free to attend with me and we'll only stay as long as it remains trouble free.

iguana · 12-03-2012 8:18pm

Malari wrote: »

I didn't know that was the case.

Yup, in Irish law a child born in wedlock can't be adopted as long as the parents are alive. Even if a woman gets pregnant by someone other than her husband I don't think the child can be placed for adoption. Any such baby ends up stuck in the foster care system until they are an adult or their parents both die.

panda100 · 12-03-2012 8:32pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I was already a mother when I had an abortion....in fact a large proportion of women from Ireland travelling have already had kids. The stats now are showing abortions in the teens / 20's are falling and rising in the 35+ group. They probably never expected to find themselves in the situation they were in.

I thought that married women in the 30's were always the highest number of women accessing abortion in the UK. Very few teens or women in their early twenties, could afford flights to UK and cost of termination!

username123 · 12-03-2012 8:43pm

panda100 wrote: »

I thought that married women in the 30's were always the highest number of women accessing abortion in the UK. Very few teens or women in their early twenties, could afford flights to UK and cost of termination!

Probably depends on an individuals situation, 2 friends of mine were helped out by the students union in college for the organising and money for abortions, in one case the money wasnt even a loan - it was just paid for. This was nearly 20 years ago.

eviltwin · 13-03-2012 10:59am

panda100 wrote: »

I thought that married women in the 30's were always the highest number of women accessing abortion in the UK. Very few teens or women in their early twenties, could afford flights to UK and cost of termination!

You could be right...I haven't seen a breakdown of ages but I just recall that the numbers of women/ girls in their teens and 20's is dropping every year while its actually increasing for women over 30 which is quite worrying.

K-9 · 13-03-2012 11:47am

eviltwin wrote: »

You could be right...I haven't seen a breakdown of ages but I just recall that the numbers of women/ girls in their teens and 20's is dropping every year while its actually increasing for women over 30 which is quite worrying.

The teenage pregnancy rate has drooped for a few years now so that would be consistent, plus first time mothers are generally getting older overall.

cofy · 13-03-2012 2:34pm

A couple of years ago I bumped into an old friend. We got to talking about children and when I was told that I could not have children and then after getting engaged I found out I was pregnant. She then told me that she was also told the same thing. She met a guy after a few weeks of their first time together found out that she was pregnant. She felt that she could not handle this pregnancy and had an abortion. She thought I would hate her for doing this as she felt that I would have more of a reason than some for being against abortion. She talked about a conversation she had heard where people were vehimently against abortion, I asked her what did they have to say about unmarried mothers (as this is what she would have been if she had gone through with the pregnancy). She had'nt thought about that, the very same people had been very vocal on that too. Unmarried mothers were getting too much from the state, it was their decision to have the baby, etc.

I was surprised that she thought I would hate her until I read the experiences others have had here on this thread. Like some, she felt she could not tell anyone for fear of being labelled. My poor friend did not even tell her family or friends. Until she had spoken to me the only other person who knew about this was the father, they were still together but never talked about it.

I would love for her to read this thread.

A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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