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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service
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As someone who has banged on (and on!) about RTÉ's coverage issues and lack of 'freesat' type service, it's great to be able to take it all back and eat my own words.
I uploaded a grab of the Ka-sat footprint to my flickr account in July 2009 and thought "Now, wouldn't that be a neat solution to the copyright sh*te" - never, ever thought it could possibly become a reality.
I can't for the life of me locate the original source for that map, but I'm sure it was from a PDF brochure document.It's not like it's going to provide a one box solution with Irish and UK channels with one 7 day EPG.
But such boxes already exist for this service! Hopefully RTÉ will use a simple DVB-SI 7-day EPG on Saorsat, so any DVB-S2 Linux receiver, which can already decrypt the Freesat EPG, will be able to integrate the two on the one EPG grid.0 -
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If this is anything like your previous Chicken Licken predictions - the sky is falling, the IMF are taking over, RTÉ are going bust - then Saorsat will be a roaring success.
Hilarious
Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie
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As someone who has banged on (and on!) about RTÉ's coverage issues and lack of 'freesat' type service, it's great to be able to take it all back
...
Hopefully RTÉ will use a simple DVB-SI 7-day EPG on Saorsat, so any DVB-S2 Linux receiver, which can already decrypt the Freesat EPG, will be able to integrate the two on the one EPG grid.
Recap
Why it is probably Kasat @ 9E
(Not yet launched)
We know:- Ka Band (Thus 100% DVB-S2, i.e. HD boxes only, even for SD TV)
- Ireland spot beam
- €1.5M per annum (i.e. sat with lot of space as that's cheap for 9 Channels)
- Q2 2011 Service start
Sats are ordered years before launch and only military ones are secret. Both makers, Operators and launch operators boast for years in advance.
AFAIK none of the Ka in service have Irish Spot beam
The only two services likely by ANY date before 2012 is Avanti Hylas and Eutelsat kasat. (aka ka-sat and "Ka Sat" on searches).
For various reasons Hylas is unlikely and not likely to have a narrow enough spot. I'd also expect it to be cheaper
So that leaves Eutelsat's Kasat at 9E the only known candidate.
Don't fit 2011 time scale.The new satellites, to be designated ASTRA 2E, ASTRA 2F, ASTRA 2G and ASTRA 5B, will allow the release of the existing satellites at two orbital positions (28.2 and 31.5 degrees East) and add new capacity as well as fleet deployment flexibility for the SES group over the coming years. The satellites are scheduled for launch in several steps between 2012 and 2014. The design life of each satellite is 15 years.
The only viable Ka Spot for Irish TV in 2011 I know off is a successful 9E kasat launch.
In fact when he said FTA and Spot Irish beam I knew it had to be a Future Ka band launch (mentioned at start of thread).
If he said "Ka Sat" that is official Eutelsat name. If he said Ka Band, that's generic?
Which did he say to the committee?
When will it start?
Q2 2011, If it's Kasat, that depends on launch Dec2010/Jan2011 success.
Launch date Q3 2010 originally for the most likely candidate.
Seems to have slipped
http://www.eutelsat.com/satellites/upcoming-launches.htmlKA-SAT
Ordered by Eutelsat from EADS Astrium, KA-SAT is scheduled for launch between November 2010 and January 2011. Entirely innovative in design, the satellite will be configured with over 80 spotbeams, with a network of eight ground stations connecting to the Internet backbone.
The KA-SAT programme is to deliver efficient resources for the mass-market delivery of the Tooway™ consumer broadband service, targeted at users across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin located beyond range of ADSL networks. With a throughput of over 70 Gigabits per second, KA-SAT will be capable of serving over one million users who expect bandwidth and prices comparable to ADSL2 performance.
Eutelsat will also drive the development of satellite-based consumer broadband services with triple-play capability, by combining broadband services in the Ka-band, through KA-SAT, with the reception of TV channels in the Ku-band. In order to facilitate the availability of high-performance triple-play equipment at competitive prices, Eutelsat will deploy the KA-SAT satellite to 9° East. This deployment will simplify production of dual-feed antennas transmitting and receiving broadband services in the Ka-band from 9° East, and receiving television in the Ku-band from Eutelsat’s flagship HOT BIRD™ neighbourhood at 13° East.
Also some confusion originally if it's 9E or 13E
Originally discussed as 13E when I met Tooway guys 2 years ago. But now seems to be 9E.
Pluses: 9E is MUCH better elevation than 28.E Sky/Freesat. Less likely trees/roof block. Fitting on rear of roof overlooking house easier.
Minus: while a 9E/13E combo Ka/Ku is possible a 9E ka/ 28E Ku combo is very challenging (one Dish rule)
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KA-SAT
This demo dish/feed may infact be 13E ku on front LNB and 9E ka on disk reflector/rear BUC+LNB
Dark rectangular box is power Amp for transmitter. 3 IF cables. Ku TV, Ka Internet Downlinkk + TV and Ka Internet uplink. Ka TV can only use one polarisation if Internet is installed.
The Ireland Spot on Kasat would only need maybe 40cm for TV Receive only. Internet works on staggeringly small 43cm compared to 95cm mostly needed now.
Content
Identical to the Terrestrial DTT. They will be able to use it as backup feed for all the DTT transmitter Sites. Terrestrial DTT will have one MUX now and a second PSB MUx in 2012. All the DAB stations will be included.
Initially 9 channel Identities.- rte1
- rte2
- rtehd (part time Special events)
- RTE News now
- rte childrens daytime
- rte +1 evening , euronews overnight
- tv3
- 3e
- tg4
To make the Numbers work any HD would have to replace RTE1 or RTE2 (since all Saorview and Saorsat is HD, this works even on SD TVs) and probably they have to stop RTE news now, rte childrens daytime or rte +1 evening during any Terrestrial HD till 2012.
Soarsat (Satellite) will be an identical copy of DTT, so it can be used as backup.
Set box and the gear- Since the dish is nearly twice the size it looks and it's an Irish Spot, don't be tempted to a larger dish! hard to align.
- The LNB must be a Ka Band suitable for Kasat
- All Ka Band and newer Satellite systems use DVB-S2, so an HD receiver is needed, probably if you want the Saorview/Saorsat extended EPG/Interactive you need MHEG5 as per Saorview spec. At worst you will get now/next.
A Diseqc switch is needed to use a Freesat HD box on Freesat and Saorsat, along with 2nd dish for 28.2E or some sort of dual feed 9E & 28E dish. (Too far a part for two LNBs on arm on regular dish).
Coverage
Orange line at North East is estimate of 1m dish
Red line is around absolute limit. French spot reception too strong, coverage probably not as far as red line due to interference
South West of NI is covered,With a larger dish, more of NI and I.O.M. can get it.
With a 1m dish or larger, small parts of Cornwall, Devon Wales, maybe bits of Somerset. Rest of UK no chance due to combination of beam size and frequency reuse. The same freq spot is France to edge of Channel. So as you move to Devon, south east wales etc, a larger dish is no use as the signal is destroyed by French Spot.
A major aspect of Kasat is two way Internet. The Tooway service
I have actually met the people involved in setting up Tooway, which will use Eight Earth Stations / Hubs.
How to Get Sky/Freesat/UK sat and Kasat?
Simplest solution is a second dish. It's very small.
The off the shelf "single dish" solution is the Wavefrontier Toroidal 55
1. T55 has the same effectiveness of 55 cm (20 inches) dish for each LNBF installed.
2. T55 can accommodate up to 8 LNBFs.
3. T55 can cover up to 40 degrees in arc (60 degrees in azimuth)
28E - 9E is approx 20 Degrees
The T90 (90cm) is not recommended as alignment for Ka would be as difficult as a 1.8m dish and any shaking in wind would lose signal. The T90 is a very heavy dish which much higher windload.
If you can get DTT, that's simpler.
You can't add a 2nd 9E LNB (Ka or Ku) to a 28.2E Sky/FTA/Freesat dish. Too great an angle. 2nd 40cm+ dish simplest or a custom or Wavefrontier dish for both LNBs on one dish. You also need a Diseqc switch.
If you have more than one receiver or PVR then you need Quad LNBs and multiple Diseqc switch (max 2 x PVRs and 4x switches) or Quattro Ka & Ku LNBs and Multiswitch (2 to 8 PVRs, or 16 non PVR or any mix)
13E to 28E is possible on one 80cm dish. Not 9E ka, I don't think.
Yes it can be done on a 55cm Wavefrontier dish (2 x LNBs and Diseqc if one sat receiver. More "interesting" if you want multiple TVs, but up to a 1000+ TVs possible with Quattro LNBs and Multiswitch. Assuming someone makes a Quattro Ka band LNB).
It may be possible on something cheaper & smaller that qualifies as a single dish. If one dish rule is NOT enforced, a 40cm dish & ka LNB is REALLY small as a second dish.
The 55cm Wavefrontier would let you have 19E, 16E (football), 13E and 23.5E also as well as 28E and 9E.
One of these "flat" rear feed 44cm dishes should work good for Kasat @ 9E when launched. Very discreet and similar to Broadband Fixed Wireless. (I use one for terrestrial Fixed Wireless!).
http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-diverse/megasat-sd-flat-440-flachantenne.html
Possibly evade "2nd dish needs planning permission" rules.
I shall see how it can be combined with a 50cm to 65cm dish for sky.
Combo for 9E Internet and 13E TV
1/ There is a one dish rule.While it's possible to do 13E and 28E on one dish, 9E and 28E is only possible on a toroidal dish
2/ Sky boxes don't do Diseqc. FTA boxes do. Some Freesat do.
3/ Only HD receivers will work. It will be DVB-S2, regular FTA is only DVB-s
Rain Fade is worse on Ka Band. Is this a problem?
the sat guys I spoke with (actual vendors) claimed the 43cm dish takes into account rain fade.
Dish gain does go up with square of Frequency, so at Ka a dish has nearly 6dB more gain at same size, or another way, 43cm in clear sky on Ka is nearly the same as 80cm dish on Ku in clear sky for same EIRP, certainly much more than 75. In London the Freesat/Sky is fine on 45cm dish. Unlike Sky/Freesat, the intended Irish service area would be in "hotspot" of the Ka Irish Spot. This means if nothing else was better (and it probably is), then in Clear sky a 27cm would work. But the 40cm+ needed for rain margin.
It will be interesting after Kasat launch, if successful, just how small a dish works in clear sky! Possibly even 20cm, 8"!
The newer Ka Satellite with small spots must have very much higher gain dish.
The newer satellites are always higher power than older ones.
Time will tell what sort of Internet Speeds Tooway on KaSat does in Rain and how much rain before breakup on Ka band Saorsat.
The transponders and spots have much more dynamic power management too. TV receive only doesn't need as big a dish as Tooway service/Two way internet.
Why are RTE choosing this?
Like the original Sky deal, it's driven by cost. This simply means they save annually the running cost of loads of small DTT fill in at lower cost of 1.5M and save €50M+ maybe on rollout of fill in sites.
France is big so a FTV card is cheaper solution. FTA on Ku Sat and especially 28.2 isn't feasible financially.
This is a complementary service. It's a bit inconvenient if you want "foreign" TV but I'm sure we will figure out a cheap solution (to have Freesat on same dish), which will be better than pesky expensive CAMs and cards.
FTV cards of course don't protect rights, that's an illusion. This isn't much fun for Irish people in UK, like FTV cards would be, that's for sure.
Can I get Internet from same dish?
In theory. But Downlink and Uplink use opposite polarities so the Saorsat Transponder needs to be same polarity and high/low part of band as the Internet downlink to work.
Multiroom
This is the usual level of complexity if you want Freesat. If all Saorsat is on one Transponder and any 2nd transponder in 2012 (to match 2nd mux if the inital tansponder isn't enough), then a regular splitter works for multiple receivers. No Quad or Octo needed. On a Multiswitch with other Quattro LNBs you only need on of the four inputs connected. No quattro needed.
It's very likely all Irish Spot content will be same part of band and same polarisation.****
Did I miss anything?:)0 -
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I know its madness, All these sky dishes and a service already up and running on 28 east, a FTV card at a cost of say 30€ a time to the consumer (Instead of a 2nd dish/box etc etc), surely it would be cheaper than 1.5m a year???
If RTE was paying for a copy of Saorview on Sky that would be about
€1.1M for EPGs excluding Radio (9 placements)
€9M for FTV /Encryption (assuming 1/20th of charges to BBC)
€3M to €8M for Transponder ( 28.2 is one of most expensive)
Total RTE Cost about €12M a year, likely much more, perhaps €21M
Cost of cards to Consumers 30 x 100,000 = €3M
That's €12M to €20M a year leaving the state to Sky pockets. Only a 1/3rd is real costs, which is still €4M to €7M.
The RTE Saorsat solution gives Ireland its own Sat Platform. Only dealing with Eutelsat, an impartial Technology Platform, not Murdoch's biased Empire.
It gives true back up feeds to all DTT sites. Likely RTE's Sky Digibox usage is not cheap as Sky actually charge non-Domestic customers extra. A Digibox is terrible for automation too.
Soarsat is very cheap at €1.5M as it uses the really high capacity (=cheap) proposed Ka-Sat. The Spot beam AND re-used same frequencies on other spots from same position in sky mean it's impossible for "out of footprint" reception any more than normal Terrestrial TV overspill. N.I. is in reality possibly full coverage due to distance from French Spot on same channels, but that's not an issue.
The Soarsat solution is easily expanded to 2 DTT Muxes and even 6 Mux at similar costing. Apart from the cost the capacity at 28.2 doesn't exist until 2013 to 2015 (which also would be Ka Band, not Ku).
The silver lining to the 12 year delay is that We have MPEG4 & no need for wasteful HD simulcast and possible cheap Kasat assuming launch is OK Dec 2010/Jan 2012.
I did warn people about not buying combos and not buying fully Saorview compatible DTT (i.e. you absolutely need HD box even with SD TV as NOT simulcast, the SD channel will gradually have more HD until full HD maybe in 2012).
The pioneers get arrows in the back.
So NO-BODY rush out getting Ka band LNBs etc when Kasat comes on line. Wait till Saorsat actually starts real service. For DTT wait until Saorview publicly starts in Nov 2010.
The service is NOT for the Sky/UPC customer. It's to fill in missing 2% to 7% of DTT. It's merely inconvenient rather than impossible for those that have UK Freesat / FTA and want Saorsat rather than Saorview.
This is what a 44cm flat panel dish (rear feed ordinary LNB fitting and about €25) would look like as a separate install to MMDS and Sky/Freesat/FTA:
Potential Saorsat 2nd dish?
That's a real sat dish (top left). It's equivalent to over 75cm as Ka gives more signal on same size dish as Ku.
(Obviously that 44cm flat dish in photo is not actually for Soarsat! But it could be, actually though a genuine sat dish, I was using it for terrestrial "tests". I would be very surprised to see the "more than one dish needs planning permission" rule applied to those plastic cased "flat dish".)0 -
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The negativity that surrounds this announcement is unbelieveable.
From RTE's point of view, their job is to provide domestic TV coverage to the Republic of Ireland after Analogue switch-off. DTT is in place, and will work well judging by the tests (assuming that the resolution is up'd to 704x576 on all SD channels!). 93% of the population sorted.
So the awkward bit is how do you supply the remaining 7% with Irish TV. They have found a solution that will cost €1.5 million per year. This is incredible value for money. No rights issues because of overspill - one look at the beam pattern shows this to be the case. As a bonus, they get a satellite back-up for transmitter distribution for free - I wonder how much (if anything) RTE pay Sky for the back-up transmission rights at each analogue transmitter?
So it won't work on your dish formally used for Sky - Tough. That is not RTE's remit. Their job is to supply Irish TV to Irish people in Ireland. If you are one of the 7%, you will have to buy new equipment - guesstimating at a cost of 6-12 months of a payment from Sky. If you want Sky, you will already be paying Sky. If you only want RTE, pay the up-front hardware cost and get better TV quaility than you ever dreamt possible after years of analogue snow (TV3 excepted - that's crap TV regardless of PQ!).
My only caveat is this: with only a small % of the population requiring these boxes, it seems imperative that RTE use a generic solution with 7-day EPG - a taylor-made solution will not be economically viable.
If you want your FTA BBC then chances are you already have the dish. If you want RTE, then there is a 93% chance that an ariel will do that.
Well done RTE - finally a solution that seems sensible.
My 2 cents.
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