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Interesting love interests which are ditched in favour of conventional ones

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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 10,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    The ending of Scott Pilgrim always bothered me, which is weird considering the comics got it dead-on comparatively. Ramona was a manipulative, dull woman in the film. Knives was a lively, charismatic character who was far more appealing, especially once she stopped being a stalking psycho.

    That the film teased a natural Knives reunion before crapping out wit a Ramona one instead was a sour end to a disappointing movie.

    I don't want to revive the disagreement I had with nyarlathotep about this (basically "hipsters like this film which means I can't") but I know what you mean.

    There's a substantial amount of characterisation missing in the film for pretty much all of the cast - even though they're primarily one-liners, they flesh out the group dynamics and help explain how and why these people actually like one another. In Ramona's case the extended version of the first date with Scott helps make her more interesting and shows why Scott's interested in her. (There are also a couple of extra bits that give Knives a chance to shine and underscore the fact that, despite being the youngest one of the group she also grows up the fastest during the course of the film). Even at that, though - Scott's relationship with Knives only existed because he was in denial about all of his past mistakes. The whole narrative is about the necessity of growing up and acknowledging your mistakes, so ending with Scott and Knives back together would undermine everything else that happens in the film...now, an ending where Scott doesn't get together with Ramona or Knives could have been interesting, if a bit weird in terms of the tonal shift involved...

    There are a couple of fanedits out there where people have woven these cut scenes back into the film, and while they aren't very long (about 5-10 mins extra max) they really help the film flow better. It's disappointing that Edgar Wright doesn't acknowledge the flaws in the film - he's stated more than once that the theatrical release is what he considers the Director's cut.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,137 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I recall her taking the piss relationship wise throughout the film. I haven't seen it since it was out in the cinema, mind, so I don't remember exact details. Manipulative or not, she was still dull as ****.

    I disagree. I think that due to her relationships in the past (particularly Gideon), she was just wary about being in a relationship with Scott, plus knowing what he'd have to go through to be with her.

    And I can't say I ever really found her dull. I think that any dullness would just have been amplified due to the speed of the other characters and tone of the film.

    I dunno, maybe I'm biased because I really liked the film and Ramona was insanely hot, but generally, I have to disagree with you.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 17,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭Das Kitty


    Yeah, but it's because she is the primary love interest and is destined to be with Aragorn that makes her boring to a large extent. Starship Troopers is a good example of this as well.

    Love interests are always more appealing when their love for the protagonist is not meant to be. That the primary love interest tends to be conventional is a by-product of the fact that they are designed to be the primary love interest.

    It seems to be something found in "happily ever after" type pairings. It appears to be a pre-requisite for male characters to have a streak of darkenss running through them, but it's rarely present in the female character. Female characters in those stories are mostly the pure, beautiful, giving archetype. It's nothing new, folk stories and legends are filled with pairings like this (e.g. Persephone and Hades).

    When the story is dealing with doomed love, including unrequitable love, the female characters tend to be more multifaceted, more like the male characters. If this female character is to become the primary love interest she must be transformed into the traditional role before she is acceptable. If she is not compliant, the love is doomed.

    I actually wish that there were more films / stories where both parties compromised and changed and met somewhere in the middle, or where the female character doesn't need to lose her darkness to be allowed love. But I have to admit, the latter doesn't fall very happily into the "happily ever after" plot.

    Maybe that's why I prefer plots where the love is doomed, because that's really the truth of all love. It's all doomed in the end one way or another.
    I always thought she was a good match for Robocop
    :D


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,031 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Penn wrote: »
    I disagree. I think that due to her relationships in the past (particularly Gideon), she was just wary about being in a relationship with Scott, plus knowing what he'd have to go through to be with her.

    And I can't say I ever really found her dull. I think that any dullness would just have been amplified due to the speed of the other characters and tone of the film.

    I dunno, maybe I'm biased because I really liked the film and Ramona was insanely hot, but generally, I have to disagree with you.

    Well what really bothered me about the film was that the comics - for all their flaws - never left me in any doubt that Ramona and Scott were a good couple. Ramona's unintentional hostility was much more credible, as a character she was much more charismatic and the ending (which is, if I recall, somewhat different and quote realistic unquote) far more believable. Scott's arc and the story's thematic focus were far stronger.

    I just don't think Winstread had the acting strength to pull it off. It just felt like a monotone performance. Considering the strong performances elsewhere - particularly Pill, Culkin and of course Wong - she was just the least colourful in a film chock-full of colourful characters. I had various other issues with the film - not least it's attempt to fit six volumes of episodic material into one feature - but Ramona's bland characterisation was potentially the most grievous flaw.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 10,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    I just don't think Winstread had the acting strength to pull it off. It just felt like a monotone performance. Considering the strong performances elsewhere - particularly Pill, Culkin and of course Wong - she was just the least colourful in a film chock-full of colourful characters. I had various other issues with the film - not least it's attempt to fit six volumes of episodic material into one feature - but Ramona's bland characterisation was potentially the most grievous flaw.

    A lot of that is down to scenes being pared down or dropped completely in the editing process. It's worth watching the film again, but honestly if you do I would suggest seeking out one of the "restored" fanedits. The film flows much better that way (and also has a lot more of the humour from the comics- I can't believe the theatrical release cut lines like "you stole him with your advanced american slut technology!" :()


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    Fysh wrote: »
    I don't want to revive the disagreement I had with nyarlathotep about this (basically "hipsters like this film which means I can't") but I know what you mean.

    Its not that I can't like this film, its that I don't because all the characters remind me of people in my generation who follow this hipster fad. None of the characters except Knives display any traits except know it all-ism, arrogance, aloofness, condescension and conceitedness. I didn't like the film because the characters, particularly Ramona, were dislikeable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭OldeCinemaSoz


    CHINATOWN is a classic...

    There sho' was some strange family
    associations goin' on in that one...

    ;)

    :eek:


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 10,999 Mod ✭✭✭✭Fysh


    Its not that I can't like this film, its that I don't because all the characters remind me of people in my generation who follow this hipster fad. None of the characters except Knives display any traits except know it all-ism, arrogance, aloofness, condescension and conceitedness. I didn't like the film because the characters, particularly Ramona, were dislikeable.

    Heh, I meant it when I said I didn't want to revive our previous discussion about it :)

    I do understand where you're coming from about the characters being snarky (though it didn't bother me that much, and I thought it fit in quite well with the themes of the film). In the theatrical release, Ramona is most certainly the duller of the two options for the most part. It's quite surprising how much quality material was left on the cutting room floor - so many jokes that helped show the group dynamic beyond the trying-too-hard-to-be-cool teenagedness or, in the case of Scott and Ramona, why the two of them actually found anything to like in one another. And all for the sake of a leaner running time :(

    (Mind you, I also think it's criminal that Wright didn't find a way of including Scott Pilgrim Vs. The Animation into the film somehow - the whole Kim & Scott thing makes a lot more sense when that's included...)


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭OldeCinemaSoz


    Frackin' hell!!! :D

    Did anybody ever see BRING ME THE HEAD
    OF ALFREDO GARCIA? So much love from
    one man to one headcase...

    :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭OldeCinemaSoz


    Didn't Susan George ditch her love Dustin Hoffman
    for something more er, more earthly in STRAW DOGS? :eek:

    I'm looking forward quite eagerly BTW for what James Woods
    can do in the part in the impending and upcoming remake...

    ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Kinski


    I still find it difficult to believe anyone thought Scott Pilgrim was anything other than rubbish (but that's a whole other discussion!)

    I was always curious about that girl (Russian, I think) who lived across the hall from Tobey Maguire's Peter Parker. Mary Whats-it was kind of a wet blanket.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,667 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Didn't Susan George ditch her love Dustin Hoffman
    for something more er, more earthly in STRAW DOGS? :eek:

    I'm looking forward quite eagerly BTW for what James Woods
    can do in the part in the impending and upcoming remake...

    ;)
    She didn't ditch Hoffman. The other guy raped her before letting his buddy have a go.

    The Straw Dogs remake came out last year and was rubbish. All the actors in the original were better. They looked and acted in a way that added to the rural horror aspect of the film, something which the casting in the remake totally failed to achieve. I really thought Lurie was going to demonise the rednecks in the film, but he doesn't. Peckinpah's film was as much as a horror film as a psychological thriller, a fact which obviously went over Lurie's head.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭don ramo


    Duggy747 wrote: »
    Starship Troopers.

    Rico should've wound up with Dizzy instead of dull Denise Richards who dumped him for her career. Poor Dizzy, she had it hard.

    Would you like to know more? :pac:
    Underdraft wrote: »
    He did end up with her (albeit she is killed before the end but I reckon he would have stayed with her had she survived).
    Did you watch all of the movie? :confused:
    she was retarded or something, she
    dies happy cause she got to have rico
    ****ing retard like:rolleyes::rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,716 ✭✭✭LittleBook


    Casablanca ... ffs Elsa, Laszlo can continue his work without you! Stay with Rick ... don't mind him, you won't regret it!!! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 829 ✭✭✭OldeCinemaSoz


    The other guy raped her before letting his buddy have a go.

    I must have missed something, then? ;)

    Anyhoo...Peckinpah's films always throws up some cunumdroms. :)


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