Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

An tAthair MacSuibhne · 01-05-2013 10:15pm #1

Have you ever wondered what kind of impact Gaelscoils are having on Irish culture? It seems as though more and more of these schools are popping up around the country and the trend is becoming widespread in Scotland too. I was lucky enough to go to one in the nineties. One of the incentives to get parents to enrol their children in the school which might seem shocking to you today was that physical punishment would be not used as a method to educate children and Catholic Church interference was kept at a bare minimum. In my class alone there were 3-4 students from various Protestant denominations. What makes me curious is whether Gaelscoils are impacting on students political identity?

pwurple · 17-07-2013 5:01pm

I see them being used as a means of perpetuating snobbery and racism in my locality.

When asked by a parent why I wasn't sending my child to the gaelscoil, and I said I placed more value on maths than on irish, and I chose the school with the better maths reputation. The response was, "but what about the foreigners".

It's a string of chelsea tractors at our local gaelscoil. Which is, by the way, also a catholic school. The protestant school is down the road. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that experience has coloured my view considerably.

robp · 21-07-2013 3:03pm

pwurple wrote: »

I see them being used as a means of perpetuating snobbery and racism in my locality.

When asked by a parent why I wasn't sending my child to the gaelscoil, and I said I placed more value on maths than on irish, and I chose the school with the better maths reputation. The response was, "but what about the foreigners".

It's a string of chelsea tractors at our local gaelscoil. Which is, by the way, also a catholic school. The protestant school is down the road. Maybe it's different elsewhere, but that experience has coloured my view considerably.

Its hardly the typical attitude of parents though is it. Non national families do participate in Gaelscoileanna and very much so in Catholic schools. In my neck of the woods protestant schools have a stronger association with Chelsea tractors although their high educational standards deserves credit.
If anything the country the needs more Gaelscoileanna to utterly normalise they socially.

ivyQ · 06-05-2014 8:55pm

God I never thought such politics were involved in Gael scoils ((did I spell it right ?))

I have enrolled my youngest in one because I like the thought of keeping the language alive , I dont speak it so am hoping we can learn together ...maybe Im being over optimistic on that one ...

I have lived abroad for many years and always felt ashamed when asked why couldn't I speak my native language by other nationals who find the thought of not speaking your native language obscene ....I can see their point though !I find it astonishing when I see people who simply dismiss it as useless and na ,

chughes · 06-05-2014 9:25pm

ivyQ wrote: »

I have lived abroad for many years and always felt ashamed when asked why couldn't I speak my native language by other nationals who find the thought of not speaking your native language obscene ....I can see their point though !I find it astonishing when I see people who simply dismiss it as useless and na ,

I'm not sure why you would feel shame. You had no choice as a child what language would become your first language. For the vast majority of people born in Ireland to Irish parents, their first language is English. A set of historical circumstances have us in that situation and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that.

ivyQ · 06-05-2014 9:38pm

chughes wrote: »

I'm not sure why you would feel shame. You had no choice as a child what language would become your first language. For the vast majority of people born in Ireland to Irish parents, their first language is English. A set of historical circumstances have us in that situation and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that.

Thats true yes I know ...but Im just telling it how it was for me ..wishing isnt going to change it but maybe a change in attitude and proactive steps to reclaim a major part of our culture will

robp · 10-05-2014 12:47am

chughes wrote: »

I'm not sure why you would feel shame. You had no choice as a child what language would become your first language. For the vast majority of people born in Ireland to Irish parents, their first language is English. A set of historical circumstances have us in that situation and no amount of wishing otherwise is going to change that.

About 6-8% of kids do their schooling through Irish. If that could be raised to about 15-20% the Irish language could have a very healthy presence in Irish life. We just need to up the numbers, especially at second level.

chughes · 10-05-2014 10:33am

robp wrote: »

About 6-8% of kids do their schooling through Irish. If that could be raised to about 15-20% the Irish language could have a very healthy presence in Irish life. We just need to up the numbers, especially at second level.

Rob, how would you see this increase happening? Over 90 years of coercion hasn't worked. In fact it may have added to the decline.

robp · 13-05-2014 9:19am

chughes wrote: »

Rob, how would you see this increase happening? Over 90 years of coercion hasn't worked. In fact it may have added to the decline.

It was poorly managed for a long time. The rise of Irish speaking schools was achieved in the voluntary sector. In the last 24 years the number of pupils attending Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht has tripled. If that growth could be maintained Irish would have a very healthy presence in the country.

chughes · 13-05-2014 4:02pm

robp wrote: »

It was poorly managed for a long time. The rise of Irish speaking schools was achieved in the voluntary sector. In the last 24 years the number of pupils attending Irish-medium schools outside the Gaeltacht has tripled. If that growth could be maintained Irish would have a very healthy presence in the country.

I don't know if its possible to find out this statistic but it would be interesting to find out how many of the graduates of gaelscoils outside Gaeltacht areas continue to use Irish on a frequent and regular basis.

For my part, I don't believe the Irish language is best served by compulsion. In Scotland and Wales the languages are kept going by enthusiasts and I don't think they are in danger of dying out. If a similar approach could be put in place in Ireland the language will survive in a healthy state if enough people want it to by actively speaking it.

robp · 14-05-2014 2:03pm

chughes wrote: »

I don't know if its possible to find out this statistic but it would be interesting to find out how many of the graduates of gaelscoils outside Gaeltacht areas continue to use Irish on a frequent and regular basis.

For my part, I don't believe the Irish language is best served by compulsion. In Scotland and Wales the languages are kept going by enthusiasts and I don't think they are in danger of dying out. If a similar approach could be put in place in Ireland the language will survive in a healthy state if enough people want it to by actively speaking it.

I imagine that those who go through Irish secondary schools would be happy to use it but studies show they will always revert to English if they are with people who don't have the language.

dubhthach · 15-05-2014 2:22pm

chughes wrote: »

I don't know if its possible to find out this statistic but it would be interesting to find out how many of the graduates of gaelscoils outside Gaeltacht areas continue to use Irish on a frequent and regular basis.

For my part, I don't believe the Irish language is best served by compulsion. In Scotland and Wales the languages are kept going by enthusiasts and I don't think they are in danger of dying out. If a similar approach could be put in place in Ireland the language will survive in a healthy state if enough people want it to by actively speaking it.

Scottish Gaidhlig is in a worse position then Irish, as for Welsh it's a mandatory school subject up to the age of 16. About 20% of Welsh primary school children are in Welsh medium schools. In case of english speaking schools they use specialised welsh language teachers (as far as I know). One of major issues in Irish system if you ask me is that teachers are "Jack of all trades". There's no reason why a standard size primary school can't have say one specialised teacher whose sole job is to teach Irish across the different classes.

Welsh by way declined hugely during the 20th century bottoming out at about 19% of population in 1991 (from 50% in 1901), it's increased to about 21%, part of reason sometimes associated with it's stabilisation is the implementation of compulsion in education system back in 2000.

I remember looking at the numbers a couple years ago, I believe at the time that there was only about 1/3rd of places in 1st year in Gaelcólaistí that would be required if every child in 6th class in all the Gaelscoileanna wanted to continue their education in Irish at secondary level. There are a number of counties for example which have Gaelscoileanna but have no Gaelchólaistí.

robp · 15-05-2014 3:30pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Scottish Gaidhlig is in a worse position then Irish, as for Welsh it's a mandatory school subject up to the age of 16. About 20% of Welsh primary school children are in Welsh medium schools. In case of english speaking schools they use specialised welsh language teachers (as far as I know). One of major issues in Irish system if you ask me is that teachers are "Jack of all trades". There's no reason why a standard size primary school can't have say one specialised teacher whose sole job is to teach Irish across the different classes.

Hugely ahead of Ireland.

dubhthach wrote: »

I believe at the time that there was only about 1/3rd of places in 1st year in Gaelcólaistí that would be required if every child in 6th class in all the Gaelscoileanna wanted to continue their education in Irish at secondary level. There are a number of counties for example which have Gaelscoileanna but have no Gaelchólaistí.

Quite starling figures. Even Gaelscoileanna are not always available. Much of the midlands have no Gaelscoileanna. I am convinced major expansion of Gaelscoileanna and Gaelchólaistí is the only way forward.

dubhthach · 15-05-2014 3:52pm

robp wrote: »

Hugely ahead of Ireland.

Quite starling figures. Even Gaelscoileanna are not always available. Much of the midlands have no Gaelscoileanna. I am convinced major expansion of Gaelscoileanna and Gaelchólaistí is the only way forward.

Sure but it has to be driven by parental demand, the success of Gaelscoil movement is that if anything the "forces of the state" have been opposed to it (no new Gaelscoileanna authorised for several years etc.) there's no point the Dept of Education saying:

Area A requires a school (due to Census) we are only giving them a Gaelscoil, in reality I do think things such as census would be good oppurtunity to gather data on parental demand for schools. In general whenever a new Gaelscoil is announced there's always demand for them.

We have to remember though that the figures in Wales in sense reflect the fact that 20% of population are daily habitual speakers. In other words a big geographic chunk of wales comprimes "Y Fro Gymraeg" -- what we would term "Fíor Gaeltacht".

A child attending both Gaelscoil and Gaelchólaiste will get about 10k hours of language contact during their education, you need about 5k for reasonable fluency. The average child in a english speaking school gets about 1,200 hours over course of their education.

eire4 · 13-06-2014 10:36pm

chughes wrote: »

Rob, how would you see this increase happening? Over 90 years of coercion hasn't worked. In fact it may have added to the decline.

I would agree. The way the government has managed the language has been a disaster for the most part. There does though seem to be a solid demand for more Gaelscoil which is encouraging.

katydid · 23-01-2015 2:22pm

robp wrote: »

About 6-8% of kids do their schooling through Irish. If that could be raised to about 15-20% the Irish language could have a very healthy presence in Irish life. We just need to up the numbers, especially at second level.

Not necessarily, if it's not used outside the schools. The vast majority of children in Gaelscoileanna leave their Irish at the school gate.

katydid · 23-01-2015 2:24pm

robp wrote: »

Hugely ahead of Ireland.

The Welsh use the language to express their national identity. We don't need to as we are an independent country with a strong identity, so there's no such momentum.

eire4 · 23-01-2015 9:39pm

It will be interesting to see what impact the growth of Gaelscoileanna have in the coming years as the kids going through the schools now move into adult life. Personally I think it is very positive culturally for Ireland.

katydid · 23-01-2015 9:42pm

eire4 wrote: »

It will be interesting to see what impact the growth of Gaelscoileanna have in the coming years as the kids going through the schools now move into adult life. Personally I think it is very positive culturally for Ireland.

What culture do they get there that they don't get in other schools.

eire4 · 23-01-2015 10:08pm

katydid wrote: »

What culture do they get there that they don't get in other schools.

Personally I would not look at things in a negative light. Language is such a vital part of how people think and express themselves that to have a growing number of Irish people growing up fluent in at least Irish and English enriches and grows us culturally.

katydid · 23-01-2015 10:10pm

eire4 wrote: »

Personally I would not look at things in a negative light. Language is such a vital part of how people think and express themselves that to have a growing number of Irish people growing up fluent in at least Irish and English enriches and grows us culturally.

Sort of. But unless they use this facility in everyday life, it has little effect.

Spanish Eyes · 23-01-2015 10:17pm

Has there been any study regarding the fluency or use of Irish of those educated through the Gaelscoilleanna when they moved on to second or even third level?

Are the parents of GS kids interested in the language and can they/do they speak it at home all the time? Is TV constantly on TG4? I just wondered.

Seems to me to be negligible. But what do I know?

Gaelscoilleanna are to me there to keep the local yobs and various visitors/immigrants out.

Two schools within two miles or so in my area. One, the local National School, got a good rep. Full of everyone, black, white, Chinese etc. Easy to get to on public transport, and local to many even if walking.

The other school is full of white kids. No public transport. SUV and car drop offs every morning and evening.

This sounds like the Deep South in the sixties to me.

eire4 · 23-01-2015 10:32pm

katydid wrote: »

Sort of. But unless they use this facility in everyday life, it has little effect.

Every little bit is a positive and I am very happy to see the growth in Gaelscoileanna. In 1971 there were only 11 Gaelscoileanna at primary level and 5 at secondary level outside Gaeltacht areas. In 2013 the numbers were 177 and 40.

Spanish Eyes · 23-01-2015 10:35pm

eire4 wrote: »

Every little bit is a positive and I am very happy to see the growth in Gaelscoileanna. In 1971 there were only 11 Gaelscoileanna at primary level and 5 at secondary level outside Gaeltacht areas. In 2013 the numbers were 177 and 40.

But quite honestly, what impact have they had up to now?

Does the GS ethos permeate the general population?

It appears to be a closed shop in many respects.

Unfortunately there are very few opportunities for those with Irish to speak it. That is the problem, not Gaelscoilleanna or the lack of them. Sure aren't all kids taught Irish at school?

It's got snob value alright, and many of the parents couldn't say Conas a ta tu if you paid them.

dubhthach · 23-01-2015 10:36pm

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The other school is full of white kids. No public transport. SUV and car drop offs every morning and evening.

This sounds like the Deep South in the sixties to me.

That's a serious allegation, if you are aware of criminal behaviour (discrimination based on skin colour of children) you should report it to the Gardaí, of course if there isn't any such behaviour you'd could be liable under libel laws for such an allegation.

katydid · 23-01-2015 10:40pm

dubhthach wrote: »

That's a serious allegation, if you are aware of criminal behaviour (discrimination based on skin colour of children) you should report it to the Gardaí, of course if there isn't any such behaviour you'd could be liable under libel laws for such an allegation.

What crime should he report?

dubhthach · 23-01-2015 10:46pm

katydid wrote: »

What crime should he report?

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

Spanish Eyes · 23-01-2015 10:54pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

Knock yourself out my dear.

There are GS where there are only white IRISH KIDS. That is the reality.

There is no discrimination on behalf of the school, it is merely that some people are not interested, or feel their kids are still learning English and Irish would be a tad too difficult for them, and there is the snob value of such exclusivity aswell.

I'm trembling in my boots now that I could be arrested for saying something that happens. I am not inciting hatred, nor are the schools, it is just the set up.

It would be similar to an English speaking Irish parent not being willing to send their kid to a Chinese/Russian speaking school here.

But get the handcuffs out for me why don't you.

katydid · 23-01-2015 10:58pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Breach of Equal Status Act, and perhaps "Incitement to Hatred" act, after all he's claiming racial discrimination. Of course he might just be committing libel which would leave him open to civil action.

Just because a school has all white students doesn't mean there is racial discrimination. It would be very hard to prove.

man98 · 23-01-2015 11:11pm

As a former student of a Gaelscoil I can feel it's only good. You always got a couple of snobs but I didn't notice much of the Chelsea tractors, I walked or cycled. In the end I chose not to go on to the MeÃ¡nscoil in the area though.

katydid · 23-01-2015 11:20pm

man98 wrote: »

As a former student of a Gaelscoil I can feel it's only good. You always got a couple of snobs but I didn't notice much of the Chelsea tractors, I walked or cycled. In the end I chose not to go on to the MeÃ¡nscoil in the area though.

Out of interest, why did you choose not to go the Meanscoil?

Cultural Impact of Gaelscoils

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