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State spending €3million on communion rituals

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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    The communion is absolutely not an 'exceptional need'. Families being able to pay rent, electricity, gas, and food are 'exceptional needs'.

    They're not exceptional needs either, they're normal costs of living which the weekly SW payments are supposed to cover. If people can't budget and manage their money responsibly it's not my fault, many working people have tighter budgets than some SW recipients do.

    Exceptional needs payments are supposed to be for exceptional, essential expenses which could not have been foreseen. Clearly a communion is none of these.
    Prancing your child around for some ritualistic nonsense, when all the child is concerned about is how much money they'll get is not an exceptional need by any understanding.

    Some posters here like it though, what about the SW recipients who can't afford to put the 'traditional' €50 :rolleyes: into their nephew's card? Should they get an exceptional payment to cover that too?

    The whole SW system in this country needs to be torn down and rebuilt from scratch. It's mental.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    o.k. ninja.

    i just found out santa claus doesnt exist either. thx for the info.

    the kids are in for a rough year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    thx bookworm.

    and i would say they are missing the bigger picture. most/or a significant percentage of those putting their kid through communion these days are not particularly religious. but they would like the child to have the day out all the same.

    religion is tainting this. if it was a purely cultural custom for seven yr old...nobody would have a problem with 3 million set aside to cover hardship.

    its not a necessity...or exceptional need....but i think we sometimes know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

    i bet there are some here complaining...who will go out and put a few notes in a card for their niece nephew next communion day...and all because they were a kid themselves.

    and i bet they smile at the thought of their own day out way back in the recesses of their memory.

    because they funded an action man or bike or barbie...or their first packet of fags and can of bulmers...some here i bet where rebels when they were seven.

    but ...part of the day was having new shoes and new dress/shirt and tie...the rest is just a good day in a childs life at the age of seven.

    id like to see the dress up part covered just in case. the social benefits outweigh 3 million.

    Lucy,

    Yes it is lovely for kids to get dolled up, receive presents/cash, have a nice meal or day out with their families and friends. But these activities should be funded by their parents, godparents, relatives, friends etc. NOT BY THE IRISH TAXPAYER!

    I don't know if you saw my first post on this thread, but I was unemployed for about 18 months and got a job not long before Christmas. I managed to go to 3 weddings while I was unemployed, I did this by being careful with what little money I had. If I can save enough money to go to 3 weddings (each with less than 6 months notice), then catholic parents with 6/7/8 years notice can easily save up enough for a communion dress.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Why aren't these parents using their hefty child benefit to pay for such things? :confused: More than a bit cheeky to expect extra hand-outs when the state is already more than generous.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    hi bookworm,

    i didnt see ur first post. fair play to you ...i know the wedding craic and the pressure of it....sometimes u wish you didnt know so many people.

    but the money here is for kids...to be outfitted for a religious/cultural right of passage.

    not all adults have ur sense of responsibility.but i think the kids should not be punished for it.

    if ur angry at the parents...well some adults struggle in this life...they dont have ur organisational skills or common sense....but their kids are not to blame.

    and 3 million is pretty small when we look at the figures wasted in this country. the fact its set aside for children ...well at least its there...just in case...when your seven...your seven. none of the arguments presented here would even cross a 7 yr olds mind.

    i would say a committed catholic would have the same approach to finance as yourself....

    the 3 million is there for the kids. their parents may be ur bugbear.....and even amongst those parents...i would guess there are those who just struggling right now ...but would rather avoid state handouts.

    im sure there are some abuses...

    but im not sure what the social welfare bill is...im guessing this 3 mill is a drop in the ocean...and if it spares one seven yr old from shame on his/her big day out ...its worth it.

    7 yr olds are just going along with what their culture is telling them to do....to be the odd one out with other 7 yr olds ...this is all they would be aware off.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    o.k. ninja.

    i just found out santa claus doesnt exist either. thx for the info.

    the kids are in for a rough year.

    Not my kids, I believe in providing for my own family not expecting to live high on the hog off other people's sweat.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    hi bookworm,

    i didnt see ur first post. fair play to you ...i know the wedding craic and the pressure of it....sometimes u wish you didnt know so many people.

    but the money here is for kids...to be outfitted for a religious/cultural right of passage.

    not all adults have ur sense of responsibility.but i think the kids should not be punished for it.

    if ur angry at the parents...well some adults struggle in this life...they dont have ur organisational skills or common sense....but their kids are not to blame.

    and 3 million is pretty small when we look at the figures wasted in this country. the fact its set aside for children ...well at least its there...just in case...when your seven...your seven. none of the arguments presented here would even cross a 7 yr olds mind.

    i would say a committed catholic would have the same approach to finance as yourself....

    the 3 million is there for the kids. their parents may be ur bugbear.....and even amongst those parents...i would guess there are those who just struggling right now ...but would rather avoid state handouts.

    im sure there are some abuses...

    but im not sure what the social welfare bill is...im guessing this 3 mill is a drop in the ocean...and if it spares one seven yr old from shame on his/her big day out ...its worth it.

    7 yr olds are just going along with what their culture is telling them to do....to be the odd one out with other 7 yr olds ...this is all they would be aware off.

    Well the church can decree a measure to make the event less expensive and separate the event from schools and the taxpayers money. The church expecting non church goers tax money to fuel their rituals is wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    hi bookworm,

    i didnt see ur first post. fair play to you ...i know the wedding craic and the pressure of it....sometimes u wish you didnt know so many people.

    but the money here is for kids...to be outfitted for a religious/cultural right of passage.

    not all adults have ur sense of responsibility.but i think the kids should not be punished for it.

    if ur angry at the parents...well some adults struggle in this life...they dont have ur organisational skills or common sense....but their kids are not to blame.

    and 3 million is pretty small when we look at the figures wasted in this country. the fact its set aside for children ...well at least its there...just in case...when your seven...your seven. none of the arguments presented here would even cross a 7 yr olds mind.

    i would say a committed catholic would have the same approach to finance as yourself....

    the 3 million is there for the kids. their parents may be ur bugbear.....and even amongst those parents...i would guess there are those who just struggling right now ...but would rather avoid state handouts.

    im sure there are some abuses...

    but im not sure what the social welfare bill is...im guessing this 3 mill is a drop in the ocean...and if it spares one seven yr old from shame on his/her big day out ...its worth it.

    7 yr olds are just going along with what their culture is telling them to do....to be the odd one out with other 7 yr olds ...this is all they would be aware off.

    No the money is there for exceptional needs i.e. a sudden death, sudden illness, NOT FOR AN EVENT THAT PEOPLE KNEW WAS COMING FOR 7+ years.

    Childrens allowance can be put towards circumstances such as communions, confirmations, birthdays, christmas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    cerebral,
    ive said it before...the income to the state on this ritual outways what the state forks out.

    its like xmas....not everyone believes...but they still spend ...and that money goes into the economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    hi bookworm,

    u sound upset. what if someone here put forward the argument that the state handed u too much money ...on the basis u attended three weddings on state handouts.

    if u as an adult can attend three weddings on state handouts....i will support a seven yr old having one day out on state handouts.

    thats how i can turn the argument on you...and i would be justified in doing so...

    but i dont want to besmirch ur struggle to live on the dole.

    its not easy.

    lets remember the money is a payment for the child...and the childs big day out. a one off payment.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    cerebral,
    ive said it before...the income to the state on this ritual outways what the state forks out.

    its like xmas....not everyone believes...but they still spend ...and that money goes into the economy.

    What income to the state? Are we taxing communion money now?

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    hi bookworm,

    u sound upset. what if someone here put forward the argument that the state handed u too much money ...on the basis u attended three weddings on state handouts.

    if u as an adult can attend three weddings on state handouts....i will support a seven yr old having one day out on state handouts.

    thats how i can turn the argument on you...and i would be justified in doing so...

    but i dont want to besmirch ur struggle to live on the dole.

    its not easy.

    Well what I did with my entitlements is nobody's business, but I didn't live outside my means while I was claiming. If I couldn't afford it - I didn't buy it. I could have gone to the Social Welfare and said 'Hey my sister is getting married next month and I'd like a new dress' and claimed it was an 'exceptional need'.

    ETA, I suppose I am a bit mad about this. I just don't understand why you dont see the logic behind the 'Exceptional Need'.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    if it was a purely cultural custom for seven yr old...nobody would have a problem with 3 million set aside to cover hardship.
    Yes we would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    vat nija. circulation of money. money out money in. go do ur own sums.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,166 ✭✭✭Stereomaniac


    No. But there's a lot of money being spent every year when kids reach that milestone. Chill.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    bookworm ,

    ur entitlements and a seven ur olds entitlements...why are urs private and theirs under attack. they are both entitlements...i have no problems with either.

    if u want to attack the childs ...ill hold up a mirror.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    Well if it's just a case of helping along the economy, lets all have new dresses and a knees up on state coffers - just think of the boost to the economy! It would be daft not to!!11!! :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    vat nija. circulation of money. money out money in. go do ur own sums.
    Do you think these kids won't be making their communions just because they haven't been given financial aid by the state for dresses or suits?


  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    bookworm ,

    ur entitlements and a seven ur olds entitlements...why are urs private and theirs under attack. they are both entitlements...i have no problems with either.

    if u want to attack the childs ...ill hold up a mirror.

    Yes, but the children's allowance payment is for children. The exceptional needs payment is for people who have 'exceptional' needs (and ill say this again) for a sudden death, for a sudden illness, if you need to pay for repairs to your home, not for meals out, fancy clothing or parties.

    This link is an explanation as to what the exceptional needs payment is for. Please read it and come back to me when you find the word 'communion'


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    yahwa,

    i disagree. we would not have a problem. ive said it before...the irish have a thing i see missing in other cultures...its putting something into a childs hand. i dunno how it has ingrained itself in us...but its there. and ive had this discussion with other irishmen abroad. its almost something automatic in us.

    when i look at our history and social conditions...my best guess is that neighbours needed each other because of poverty...and we still have that sense of giving .we have all heard the stories...maybe the younger/most recent generation have escaped this.

    i dont know of anyone in my extended family who will not put something in a kids hand when they say goodbye...but i see the look of surprise on the kids face...because they are from all corners of the world...and dont get it in their own culture. and because they have never struggled...dont understand why and extended relative would put money in their hand just for meeting up.

    3 mill is all is on the table here..and its for kids. rightly so.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    bookworm,

    ive already conceded to you it is not an exceptional payment.

    it benefits us socially and economically. its a one off ritual in which the money spent by the exchequer is far less than the money put into the economy.

    if the ritual ever goes by the wayside because off changing beliefs...we will save 3 mill...how much will the economy lose in ur opinion?


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    vat nija. circulation of money. money out money in. go do ur own sums.

    OK so if I've got it right, your plan for economic nirvana goes something like this:

    1. Give free money to people
    2. They buy stuff and pay VAT!!!
    3. Profit!

    I'd much rather put my faith in the underpants gnomes than mindless socialism.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    bookworm,

    ive already conceded to you it is not an exceptional payment.

    it benefits us socially and economically. its a one off ritual in which the money spent by the exchequer is far less than the money put into the economy.

    if the ritual ever goes by the wayside because off changing beliefs...we will save 3 mill...how much will the economy lose in ur opinion?

    I have absolutely no problem with money being set aside for people who are genuinely in need of this payment and who need the money for unforseen circumstances. However this money is diverted and is abused by people to celebrate their religious/cultural beliefs I would rather it was spent on freeing up a few beds in the hospitals, opening up closed hospital wards, paying for a few extra ambulances, putting a few extra gardai on the street.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    no ninja. give about 200 yoyo s to a kid...the kid collects 700 yo yos on average.

    if all people can get this return...go ahead with the plan.

    that would be nirvana.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Right so we give his family 200 in free money and get what back?

    Do bear in mind that the money this kid gets would be spent by the people who gave it to him on something else if it wasn't for the religious one-upmanship occasion. It hasn't been magicked up out of nowhere or plucked off Richard Boyd Barrett's money tree.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    bookworm,

    the payment of 3 mill is tiny compared to our overall expenses. its also for kids. maybe some of their folks are on the rip....but even if that 3 mill was wiped out tomorrow...

    u would see no descernable change.

    but the ongoing cultural habit of having a day for 7 yr olds in which every adult in their circle gives em something and values them and tells em they are worthy and accepted......that is the kind of stuff that lasts and builds social cohesion and respect. through generations.

    without it.....the 3 mill we save...will multiply into more millions for counselling or crime or some psycholgical problem of an adult who never knew what it was to be valued/appreciated as a kid.or who doesnt know how to pass it on.

    its cheap money. well spent.

    if atheism or communal schooling comes up with better ways to include children ritualistically...and give em a sense of community/ social cohesion/responsibilty ....lets support that.

    im easy. and this 3 mill spend....works for the future....even if the kids drop all their religious beliefs....they had that one day they knew people /relations valued them.

    and they may kindle that fire. even if its in the name of atheism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Lucy8080


    i get a good chuckle out of u ninja.

    i think ur in that stage of anything to do with religion is bad and must be condemned.

    up the revolution eh!

    calm down. 3 million is nothing in our economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Bookworm85


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    bookworm,

    the payment of 3 mill is tiny compared to our overall expenses. its also for kids. maybe some of their folks are on the rip....but even if that 3 mill was wiped out tomorrow...

    u would see no descernable change.

    but the ongoing cultural habit of having a day for 7 yr olds in which every adult in their circle gives em something and values them and tells em they are worthy and accepted......that is the kind of stuff that lasts and builds social cohesion and respect. through generations.

    without it.....the 3 mill we save...will multiply into more millions for counselling or crime or some psycholgical problem of an adult who never knew what it was to be valued/appreciated as a kid.or who doesnt know how to pass it on.

    its cheap money. well spent.

    if atheism or communal schooling comes up with better ways to include children ritualistically...and give em a sense of community/ social cohesion/responsibilty ....lets support that.

    im easy. and this 3 mill spend....works for the future....even if the kids drop all their religious beliefs....they had that one day they knew people /relations valued them.

    and they may kindle that fire. even if its in the name of atheism.


    The fact that you think that a 7 year old needs to be dresses as a mini bride/groom and be given money/presents to feel 'accepted' by their families makes my head hurt. :eek:

    If any 7 year old genuinely feels this than it hammers home the point that these religious and 'cultural' ceremonies need to be done away with!


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    the payment of 3 mill is tiny compared to our overall expenses.

    Yes. It's still wrong though - it's wrong for a government to subsidise the rituals of a particular religion using tax money extracted from the population as a whole regardless of their beliefs. It's legalised theft.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,649 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    Lucy8080 wrote: »
    i get a good chuckle out of u ninja.

    i think ur in that stage of anything to do with religion is bad and must be condemned.

    up the revolution eh!

    calm down. 3 million is nothing in our economy.

    Whatever happened to looking after the pennies and the pounds would look after themselves? This sort of Bertie-era "something for everyone in the audience" thinking is what bankrupted this country.

    You still haven't justified why it's morally correct to subsidise a particular religious belief using taxation collected from people of all religions and none. Would you be happy to pay a Jew Tax or a Muslim Tax?

    You really won't like it when I set up Atheist Fest and make all taxpayers pay for it ;)
    it'll be coke, hookers and booze out the ya-ya.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



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