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Twenty years on – Peter McBride’s killer remains in British army

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    #62
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Dereliction of duty/cowardice on the part of the 'Irish Army' from 1969-1999 is a more shameful stain for this Islands history than any action of the Provisional IRA.

    Most people generally see sins of commission as being worse than sons of omission. So what the IRA did is worse than what you think the army didn't do. Psychological studies tend to back this up. Where's your rationale, other than your bigotry?

    http://philosopherinthemirror.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/sins-of-commission-and-the-logic-of-omission/


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    #63
    Border-Rat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    Laminations wrote: »
    Most people generally see sins of commission as being worse than sons of omission. So what the IRA did is worse than what you think the army didn't do. Psychological studies tend to back this up. Where's your rationale, other than your bigotry?

    http://philosopherinthemirror.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/sins-of-commission-and-the-logic-of-omission/

    By this logic putting a violent dog to sleep is worse than letting it hang around your children. There's a reason the Irish army, even recently, gets spat on in border areas. They're viewed as traitors and cowards.

    I love the hypocrisy of free-staters who demand action over a RIRA funeral, but insist that inaction was the right thing over Bloody Sunday or even Dublin/Monaghan.


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    #64
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Border-Rat wrote: »

    I love the hypocrisy of free-staters who demand action over a RIRA funeral, but insist that inaction was the right thing over Bloody Sunday or even Dublin/Monaghan.

    Cameron stood in Parliment today making another apology for the actions of his governments institutions and defence forces, yet our government stayed silent and doffed the hat while the British and the Unionists committed human rights crime after crime.
    Had they refused to maintain the border and not colluded with the crown, applied maximum and forceful diplomatic pressure on the British government when they knew that they where acting illegally and against human rights, we would not have witnessed the carnage we did and a lot more people would be still alive.
    Responsible governance and standing up for your people and all that.


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    #65
    Border-Rat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 921 ✭✭✭Border-Rat


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Cameron stood in Parliment today making another apology for the actions of his governments institutions and defence forces, yet our government stayed silent and doffed the hat while the British and the Unionists committed human rights crime after crime.
    Had they refused to maintain the border and not colluded with the crown, applied maximum and forceful diplomatic pressure on the British government when they knew that they where acting illegally and against human rights, we would not have witnessed the carnage we did and a lot more people would be still alive.
    Responsible governance and standing up for your people and all that.

    When a few Turks were killed on that Flotilla, there was serious talk of war. We had one Flotilla after another up here. In fact, the Gardai did more to help people here than the Irish army.

    To say that men like Billy McKee, a man who defended a Chapel full of civilians with one thompson sub-machine gun against a mob armed with British-supplied weapons should be spoken of with shame is highly insulting.

    There was serious talk of Thatcher getting incursions across the border. This would've - eventually - led to the deaths of Southern citizens by the hands of the British forces. Such people could rest assured - defence from the IRA would've arrived long before the Irish army. And a better job they would've done of it too - the Irish army once had an IRA ASU surrounded in a house, even with two light tanks. The IRA managed to escape.


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    #66
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    By this logic putting a violent dog to sleep is worse than letting it hang around your children. There's a reason the Irish army, even recently, gets spat on in border areas. They're viewed as traitors and cowards.

    I love the hypocrisy of free-staters who demand action over a RIRA funeral, but insist that inaction was the right thing over Bloody Sunday or even Dublin/Monaghan.

    You do understand the importance of the word 'sins' in that? Your rodiculous interpretation would see people obeying laws as worse than those breaking them. Similarly, the gardai enforcing the law at a paramilitary parade is an action but not a sin of comission.


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    #67
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    With your hand on your heart, do you honestly believe that a truth and reconciliation programme would work?
    Do you honestly believe the people behind the Omagh bombing would happily come forward? or the people who carried out the Miami Showband atrocity?
    The onus is on democratically elected governments to be honest and law abiding regardless of how others are behaving. We the citizens demand that when we elect them. You cannot maintain your position on higher moral ground if you implicity sanction this kind of behaviour or turn a blind eye to the fact that it happened in the past. All your condemnations are hollow and even more useless as a result. You cannot have state sanctioned illegality and then ask others to observe the law.

    Read my first post in this thread.


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    #68
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    gurramok wrote: »
    No they haven't, certain posters are not even handed when it comes to NI victims.
    I didn’t say most posters, I said most people. As in, most people in Ireland, North and South.
    gurramok wrote: »
    They were not recognised as an army by both jurisdictions. The BA is, quite a difference.
    Actually, it isn’t. The IRA believed themselves to be a legitimate army engaged in a war, didn’t they?


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    #69
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Cameron stood in Parliment today making another apology for the actions of his governments institutions and defence forces, yet our government stayed silent and doffed the hat while the British and the Unionists committed human rights crime after crime.
    You want the Irish government of today to apologise for the actions of the British government of the past?
    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Had they refused to maintain the border and not colluded with the crown, applied maximum and forceful diplomatic pressure on the British government when they knew that they where acting illegally and against human rights, we would not have witnessed the carnage we did and a lot more people would be still alive.
    Implying that past Irish governments sat around and did absolutely nothing about the situation in Northern Ireland is an insult to the memory of people like Garret Fitzgerald.


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    #70
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    I love the hypocrisy of free-staters who demand action over a RIRA funeral, but insist that inaction was the right thing over Bloody Sunday or even Dublin/Monaghan.
    Could you point out the poster who has said any such thing?
    Border-Rat wrote: »
    There was serious talk of Thatcher getting incursions across the border. This would've - eventually - led to the deaths of Southern citizens by the hands of the British forces. Such people could rest assured - defence from the IRA would've arrived long before the Irish army. And a better job they would've done of it too - the Irish army once had an IRA ASU surrounded in a house, even with two light tanks. The IRA managed to escape.
    So you want us to judge the IRA based on what they would have done in Ireland in some fantasy realm in which the UK invaded, rather than what they actually did in the real world?


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    #71
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    Border-Rat wrote: »
    Dereliction of duty/cowardice on the part of the 'Irish Army' from 1969-1999 is a more shameful stain for this Islands history than any action of the Provisional IRA.

    And the IRA avenged Peter McBride. OP, take your pick of any foreign soldier killedmurdered between 92-98 in Ulster.
    Yes the proud IRA blowing up little kids in Warrington isn't shameful, nor shooting dead Australian tourists in Germany, nor firebombing the LeMon.
    Your posts are some of the most insulting and sickening rhetoric I have seen posted in a long time.
    By the way which inexcusable act of cowardly murder was the act of revenge for poor Peter McBride, and who gave the pira the authority to carry out revenge attacks in his name.


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    #72
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    djpbarry wrote: »
    You want the Irish government of today to apologise for the actions of the British government of the past?
    Who said that?
    The Irish government are guilty of not doing enough, if anything at all, to stand up for their citizens. They colluded with the British to police the border and stood idly by while the British and Unionists committed human rights offences again and again. But they were always very quick to condemn when other groups stood up and took some action.
    Bloody Sunday was in itself, reason to cut diplomatic relations until it was independently inquired into.
    Implying that past Irish governments sat around and did absolutely nothing about the situation in Northern Ireland is an insult to the memory of people like Garret Fitzgerald.

    Let it be an insult then, he was in the government that sent the Heavy Gang on to the streets.
    A Gang which attracted the attention of Ammnesty International.
    http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Faculties/Arts,_Humanities_%26_Social_Sciences/School_of_Law/Advanced_Lawyering_Projects/Miscarriages_of_Justice/Causes
    He was also a member of government who brought in legislation to silence his own people.
    Forgive me if I don't have him up on a pedestal.


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    #73
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Who said that?
    The Irish government are guilty of not doing enough, if anything at all, to stand up for their citizens. They colluded with the British to police the border and stood idly by while the British and Unionists committed human rights offences again and again. But they were always very quick to condemn when other groups stood up and took some action.
    Bloody Sunday was in itself, reason to cut diplomatic relations until it was independently inquired into.


    Let it be an insult then, he was in the government that sent the Heavy Gang on to the streets.
    A Gang which attracted the attention of Ammnesty International.
    http://www2.ul.ie/web/WWW/Faculties/Arts,_Humanities_%26_Social_Sciences/School_of_Law/Advanced_Lawyering_Projects/Miscarriages_of_Justice/Causes
    He was also a member of government who brought in legislation to silence his own people.
    Forgive me if I don't have him up on a pedestal.
    There's a reason he was called Fitzthatcher.

    Theres also the "mysterious" way his 200k loan got written off by AIB when he was in a troublesome financial situation.

    A real hero.


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    #74
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    If you want to praise an Irish politician for at least doing something to bring us towards peace (no where near enough) Haughey is the man you should be praising.


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    #75
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Bloody Sunday was in itself, reason to cut diplomatic relations until it was independently inquired into.

    So in this case, in the light of the murder of over a dozen people you want diplomatic channels with one of tge mist powerful states in the world closed, a state whose input is essential if any peaceful solution was to be found.

    And then when it comes to RIRA, who murdered more than double the number who died on Bloody Sunday in their bombing of Omagh, and who are a dissident minority not pivotal in any peace process you think their escalating acts of violence should lead us to open diplomatic channels?

    Pure idiocy.


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    #76
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Laminations wrote: »
    So in this case, in the light of the murder of over a dozen people you want diplomatic channels with one of tge mist powerful states in the world closed, a state whose input is essential if any peaceful solution was to be found.

    A foreign power carried out a hideous slaying and then covered it up, with what, even then, people could see, was a sham (the Widgery Tribunal) and what did our government do about it? Nothing, and by doing nothing about that and other events they allowed the situation and resentment fester and drive the rise of the IRA.
    The chickens are coming home to roost though...witness them (FF and FG )resort to mudslinging about the past whenever SF take them on in the Dail or publically. The 'past' we are all supposed to be putting behind us and moving on from. :rolleyes: That is fear manifesting itself, fear that the past is about to bite their cowardly asses.
    And then when it comes to RIRA, who murdered more than double the number who died on Bloody Sunday in their bombing of Omagh, and who are a dissident minority not pivotal in any peace process you think their escalating acts of violence should lead us to open diplomatic channels?

    Pure idiocy.

    Once and for all, we need a settlement for all the people, if we truly want peace. You can support the government for doing nothing constructive, I don't.
    And calling for the British to do the right thing about Peter McBride's killers and for them to release the information about the Dublin - Monaghan bombings and other things mentioned on this thread is part of what I call reponsible and protective governance.
    Any condemnation of what the IRA did is hollow and self serving otherwise, not to mention, cowardly.

    By the miracle of our Boards Time Machine we jump to 2027......
    Happyman42 wrote:
    by doing nothing about that and other events they allowed the situation and resentment fester and drive the rise of
    ...........the RIRA.


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    #77
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    If you want to praise an Irish politician for at least doing something to bring us towards peace (no where near enough) Haughey is the man you should be praising.
    A thief and a liar! Of course he would fit in well with your so called republicans!
    After a post like that no sane person could ever take you seriously again.


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    #78
    SocSocPol
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,043 ✭✭✭SocSocPol


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    A foreign power carried out a hideous slaying and then covered it up, with what, even then, people could see, was a sham (the Widgery Tribunal) and what did our government do about it? Nothing, and by doing nothing about that and other events they allowed the situation and resentment fester and drive the rise of the IRA.
    The chickens are coming home to roost though...witness them (FF and FG )resort to mudslinging about the past whenever SF take them on in the Dail or publically. The 'past' we are all supposed to be putting behind us and moving on from. :rolleyes: That is fear manifesting itself, fear that the past is about to bite their cowardly asses.



    Once and for all, we need a settlement for all the people, if we truly want peace. You can support the government for doing nothing constructive, I don't.
    And calling for the British to do the right thing about Peter McBride's killers and for them to release the information about the Dublin - Monaghan bombings and other things mentioned on this thread is part of what I call reponsible and protective governance.
    Any condemnation of what the IRA did is hollow and self serving otherwise, not to mention, cowardly.

    By the miracle of our Boards Time Machine we jump to 2027......

    ...........the RIRA.
    How cowardly? As cowardly as Warrington? As cowardly as spraying restaurants in london with sub-machinegun fire? As cowardly as kidnapping Don Tidey?


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    #79
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Cameron stood in Parliment today making another apology for the actions of his governments institutions and defence forces, yet our government stayed silent and doffed the hat while the British and the Unionists committed human rights crime after crime.
    Had they refused to maintain the border and not colluded with the crown, applied maximum and forceful diplomatic pressure on the British government when they knew that they where acting illegally and against human rights, we would not have witnessed the carnage we did and a lot more people would be still alive.
    Responsible governance and standing up for your people and all that.

    Some amount of strawmenning going on in this thread, but why would the state open borders to an organisation that didn't even recognise this state, or to organisations that shot and murdered law and order forces when robbing banks, on several occassions. Suppose the murdered Gardai should have just let them at it, help yourselves lads.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #80
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    SocSocPol wrote: »
    How cowardly? As cowardly as Warrington? As cowardly as spraying restaurants in london with sub-machinegun fire? As cowardly as kidnapping Don Tidey?

    :rolleyes::rolleyes: You do know what a campaign of terror is? And you do know that governments should not be engaging in them themselves or standing back letting situations spiral out of control. Which is what they did, they had the power to make the changes neccesary to bring the peace.

    The conflict was relatively easily resolved when they admitted their own mistakes in allowing the Northern situation to happen and made the changes neccessary to put a stop to the terror. It was ALWAYS and still is their responsibility to ensure that governance is fair and equitable.
    Any criticism of sovereign governments at all or are you one of those who covered their ears when Cameron apologised for Bloody Sunday or who hasn't read what the British finally acceded to in the GFA? Something they could have done at any point during the most recent troubles as they were secretly in talks with the IRA. People died because they failed to keep a lid on it all.


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    #81
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    Some amount of strawmenning going on in this thread, but why would the state open borders to an organisation that didn't even recognise this state, or to organisations that shot and murdered law and order forces when robbing banks, on several occassions. Suppose the murdered Gardai should have just let them at it, help yourselves lads.

    Security on the border caused more problems and resentment for ordinary residents than it did for the IRA.


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    #82
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    Security on the border caused more problems and resentment for ordinary residents than it did for the IRA.

    Well that is generally what happens with security operations, causes inconvenience. Still, suppose we should have opened the borders to men who murdered unarmed Gardai without a thought, in cold blood to rob banks.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #83
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    SocSocPol wrote: »
    A thief and a liar! Of course he would fit in well with your so called republicans!
    After a post like that no sane person could ever take you seriously again.

    They would, if they knew their history.

    The Alec Reid - SF leadership(Adams) - Haughey communication line (started around 86) was essential. Quite simply if not for this the peace process would never have happened. It was a major risk for Haughey to take given the arms crisis, if it became public it would have ended his career.

    So while Sir Garret was palling it up with Thatcher (and doing all the other things mentioned, heavy gang, censorship etc) and excluding the people he needed to talk to from any discussions Haughey was the Irish leader who actually facilitated the peace process coming about.

    But lets not let the truth get in the way eh? :rolleyes:


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    #84
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    Well that is generally what happens with security operations, causes inconvenience. Still, suppose we should have opened the borders to men who murdered unarmed Gardai without a thought, in cold blood to rob banks.

    How many where caught at checkpoints then?
    The border security was powerless to stop the movement of arms or men, it was there at the request of the British and as a sop to the Unionists without any regard for Irish citizens. What genius sanctioned that, to stop a secret, subversive organisation engaged in guerilla warfare ?

    Soldier: 'What's your business in the North?'
    Driver: 'Ah, sure we just have a 200lb bomb for Newry in the back' :rolleyes:


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    #85
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Happyman42 wrote: »
    How many where caught at checkpoints then?
    The border security was powerless to stop the movement of arms or men, it was there at the request of the British and as a sop to the Unionists without any regard for Irish citizens. What genius sanctioned that, to stop a secret, subversive organisation engaged in guerilla warfare ?

    Soldier: 'What's your business in the North?'
    Driver: 'Ah, sure we just have a 200lb bomb for Newry in the back' :rolleyes:

    They did get a few at checkpoints, they had more than just stagnant checkpoints you know.

    How many unarmed, rural, local village Gardai got murdered by Republicans robbing a bank? Answer me that. Brave soldiers indeed, shooting unarmed Gardai in the back after robbing a bank or post office at gun point.

    I've had enough with people who'd make excuses for Dominic McGlinchey types.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #86
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    K-9 wrote: »
    They did get a few at checkpoints, they had more than just stagnant checkpoints you know.

    How many unarmed, rural, local village Gardai got murdered by Republicans robbing a bank? Answer me that. Brave soldiers indeed, shooting unarmed Gardai in the back after robbing a bank or post office at gun point.

    I've had enough with people who'd make excuses for Dominic McGlinchey types.
    The IRA killed three members of AGS, unclear on a forth, could have been friendly fire.

    And there was more to the deaths than the simplistic picture you've painted.


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    #87
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    The IRA killed three members of AGS, unclear on a forth, could have been friendly fire.

    And there was more to the deaths than the simplistic picture you've painted.

    We are chatting about dissidents here too.

    How many unarmed Gardai were murdered by Republicans, Official, Provisional or some other Republican group?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #88
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Fenian Army wrote: »
    The IRA killed three members of AGS, unclear on a forth, could have been friendly fire.

    And there was more to the deaths than the simplistic picture you've painted.

    There was more to the deaths of the unarmed Gardai?

    Well I did hear that about Dt. McCabe. Do tell us what more about what we should know about the IRA murdering unarmed Gardai, do explain that one.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #89
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    K-9 wrote: »
    They did get a few at checkpoints, they had more than just stagnant checkpoints you know.

    Instead of cowardly aquiesance to British and Unionist demands that is exactly where a government truly concerned with the safety and protection of its citizens should have put their money, into roving patrols, which had a chance of catching someone.
    How many unarmed, rural, local village Gardai got murdered by Republicans robbing a bank? Answer me that. Brave soldiers indeed, shooting unarmed Gardai in the back after robbing a bank or post office at gun point.

    I've had enough with people who'd make excuses for Dominic McGlinchey types.

    And because you have had enough that will solve things?

    And I never excused anybody.


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    #90
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    K-9 wrote: »
    We are chatting about dissidents here too.

    How many unarmed Gardai were murdered by Republicans, Official, Provisional or some other Republican group?
    12 Garda were killed during the troubles. (INLA, OIRA, Saor Éire, PIRA and some other independent groups I believe) Some were armed but I don't know how many were. Some were killed in explosions when they were searching farms and what not. Murdered? You mean deliberately targeted like the RUC were? Very few. (if any, but I'm not familiar with all the individual circumstances)

    You seem to be trying to say that the IRA roved around the 26 killing Garda, but that's not the case. In 1948 a General Army Convention issued an order, General Order No.8 which forbade "any armed action whatsoever" against the forces of the 26 county state. This seems to me to have been pretty much giving legitimacy to the 26 count state. Makes you wonder what the subsequent fuss was over in the mid eighties then.

    Anyway, the IRA in many cases went out of their way not to engage the Gardaí, even when it meant arrest and/or the loss of guns and equipment.


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    #91
    Fenian Army
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,483 ✭✭✭Fenian Army


    K-9 wrote: »
    There was more to the deaths of the unarmed Gardai?

    Well I did hear that about Dt. McCabe. Do tell us what more about what we should know about the IRA murdering unarmed Gardai, do explain that one.
    I meant that they weren't all shot in the back outside banks etc


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