Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

Safehands · 28-11-2014 12:33pm

ABC101 wrote: »

If I could offer a small clarification.

Believers just don't believe blindly. When one starts to believe... and commences on a journey of believing in God.... a relationship develops.

A person who prays to God / Jesus Christ / Virgin Mary / Saints etc enters into a type of relationship / conversation etc.

For example certain problems which the person may be experiencing i.e. health, job issues, family issues, personal issues or whatever.
Many of these issues cannot be solved by the person on their own. However a great many believers.... after having prayed to God about issues which affect them... have had their problems solved / reduced / overcome etc.
This is something which is very important. Because it demonstrates to the believer... that they have been listened to, they have been heard by God, and the problem which they were faced with has either been solved, diminished, or the person was able to draw on internal strength to overcome the difficulty.
This is why believers have belief.... because that they have experienced this relationship first hand in their own lives, not just once but many times... sometimes several times a year, several times a month or several times a day.
I have never heard of a person who was seriously ill / terminally ill who prayed to Santa and was cured.

I know about this relationship. It can be a wonderful help to people who believe, a crutch to cling to. The trouble is though, that people's prayers are not always answered. In fact, the truth is, that the really serious prayers, for people who are terminally ill, are rarely answered.
The other day I lost my wedding ring. I was tempted to pray to St Anthony, because he is the one, according to catholics, who helps people to find things.
I eventually found my ring and was very relieved. If I had prayed to Anthony, I'm sure he could have been considered partly responsible for it's recovery.

Do you know what I would love to see? I would love to see a person who lost a limb, or an eye in an accident, pray to their chosen saint for intersession, and for the lost limb or eye to be restored perfectly. Do you think that would ever happen by praying, even once, anywhere in the world? Has it ever happened?

ABC101 · 28-11-2014 1:15pm

Safehands wrote: »

I know about this relationship. It can be a wonderful help to people who believe, a crutch to cling to. The trouble is though, that people's prayers are not always answered. In fact, the truth is, that the really serious prayers, for people who are terminally ill, are rarely answered.
The other day I lost my wedding ring. I was tempted to pray to St Anthony, because he is the one, according to catholics, who helps people to find things.
I eventually found my ring and was very relieved. If I had prayed to Anthony, I'm sure he could have been considered partly responsible for it's recovery.

Do you know what I would love to see? I would love to see a person who lost a limb, or an eye in an accident, pray to their chosen saint for intersession, and for the lost limb or eye to be restored perfectly. Do you think that would ever happen by praying, even once, anywhere in the world? Has it ever happened?

Glad to year you got your wedding ring back!!

WRT to prayers not being answered..

I agree that not all prayers are answered. We don't know why this is.... sometimes it might be that we are praying for the wrong thing, or is not part of God's design or whatever, I don't know. It is a mystery.... particularly if you are praying for something very good (i.e. a sick child etc)... and your prayer is not answered.

I'd love to see seriously injured people made whole (perfectly healthy) as well, in particular children. But it does not happen, if you lose a limb or eye... that is it.

This is only my opinion.... but perhaps one of the reasons why it does not happen would be ....if we had hurdreds or thousands of miraculous cures in Ireland every year (just using Ireland as an example)..... then people might start to believe in God because of the multiple evidence that is there... rather than believing in God through personal choice / faith.

People have a free choice, to believe or not to believe. God respects that in this life.

WRT prayers being answered:

I cannot answer for everybody, but we do know of witness testimonies by people who have prayed for a cure to their ailment, and they have been cured. There has been cures which cannot be explained by medical science alone. I am sure you have heard of a few yourself. Have a read of Colm Keanes book..... he wrote one about Padre Pio.... great read... about 250 pages, nice stories / witness statements etc and cheap to buy... about 14 euro or so.

Getting back to belief or faith that a believer has in God..... in my opinion... it is akin to a person practising something (ie. Golf, maths, public speaking etc etc). The more a person practises..... generally the more proficient they become up to a point. Obviously if I practise golf a lot... I am still never going to get to the level of T.Woods or Rory.

So it is the same with a relationship with God. The more one prays / thinks of God / attempts to develop their relationship with God... the more God reveals himself in the believers life. It is a personal relationship of love between the believer and God.

I think is could be where athiests miss out. They are looking for concrete proof before they decide to believe, but with believers.... it is the other way around.... they believe.... they deepen / practise their faith and slowly but surely they see the evidence of God in their personal lives and in the universe around us.

marienbad · 28-11-2014 1:41pm

ABC101 wrote: »

Glad to year you got your wedding ring back!!

WRT to prayers not being answered..

I agree that not all prayers are answered. We don't know why this is.... sometimes it might be that we are praying for the wrong thing, or is not part of God's design or whatever, I don't know. It is a mystery.... particularly if you are praying for something very good (i.e. a sick child etc)... and your prayer is not answered.

I'd love to see seriously injured people made whole (perfectly healthy) as well, in particular children. But it does not happen, if you lose a limb or eye... that is it.

This is only my opinion.... but perhaps one of the reasons why it does not happen would be ....if we had hurdreds or thousands of miraculous cures in Ireland every year (just using Ireland as an example)..... then people might start to believe in God because of the multiple evidence that is there... rather than believing in God through personal choice / faith.

People have a free choice, to believe or not to believe. God respects that in this life.

WRT prayers being answered:

I cannot answer for everybody, but we do know of witness testimonies by people who have prayed for a cure to their ailment, and they have been cured. There has been cures which cannot be explained by medical science alone. I am sure you have heard of a few yourself. Have a read of Colm Keanes book..... he wrote one about Padre Pio.... great read... about 250 pages, nice stories / witness statements etc and cheap to buy... about 14 euro or so.

Getting back to belief or faith that a believer has in God..... in my opinion... it is akin to a person practising something (ie. Golf, maths, public speaking etc etc). The more a person practises..... generally the more proficient they become up to a point. Obviously if I practise golf a lot... I am still never going to get to the level of T.Woods or Rory.

So it is the same with a relationship with God. The more one prays / thinks of God / attempts to develop their relationship with God... the more God reveals himself in the believers life. It is a personal relationship of love between the believer and God.

I think is could be where athiests miss out. They are looking for concrete proof before they decide to believe, but with believers.... it is the other way around.... they believe.... they deepen / practise their faith and slowly but surely they see the evidence of God in their personal lives and in the universe around us.

and ignore all evidence to the contrary, the rings not found , the innocent child dying, the pointless deaths in excruciating pain, the list is endless

JC01 · 28-11-2014 2:56pm

ABC101 wrote: »

Glad to year you got your wedding ring back!!

WRT to prayers not being answered..

I agree that not all prayers are answered. We don't know why this is.... sometimes it might be that we are praying for the wrong thing, or is not part of God's design or whatever, I don't know. It is a mystery.... particularly if you are praying for something very good (i.e. a sick child etc)... and your prayer is not answered.

I'd love to see seriously injured people made whole (perfectly healthy) as well, in particular children. But it does not happen, if you lose a limb or eye... that is it.

This is only my opinion.... but perhaps one of the reasons why it does not happen would be ....if we had hurdreds or thousands of miraculous cures in Ireland every year (just using Ireland as an example)..... then people might start to believe in God because of the multiple evidence that is there... rather than believing in God through personal choice / faith.

People have a free choice, to believe or not to believe. God respects that in this life.

WRT prayers being answered:

I cannot answer for everybody, but we do know of witness testimonies by people who have prayed for a cure to their ailment, and they have been cured. There has been cures which cannot be explained by medical science alone. I am sure you have heard of a few yourself. Have a read of Colm Keanes book..... he wrote one about Padre Pio.... great read... about 250 pages, nice stories / witness statements etc and cheap to buy... about 14 euro or so.

Getting back to belief or faith that a believer has in God..... in my opinion... it is akin to a person practising something (ie. Golf, maths, public speaking etc etc). The more a person practises..... generally the more proficient they become up to a point. Obviously if I practise golf a lot... I am still never going to get to the level of T.Woods or Rory.

So it is the same with a relationship with God. The more one prays / thinks of God / attempts to develop their relationship with God... the more God reveals himself in the believers life. It is a personal relationship of love between the believer and God.

I think is could be where athiests miss out. They are looking for concrete proof before they decide to believe, but with believers.... it is the other way around.... they believe.... they deepen / practise their faith and slowly but surely they see the evidence of God in their personal lives and in the universe around us.

I flick through this thread every now and then because I find the concepts of religion quite interesting but this thread is often just people screaming "BELIEVE OR BURN" so it's nice to see you actually have a discussion on things you, as a believer, are asked by atheists.

Two points from that last comment I always wonder about though; you make a valid point re lots of miracles would kind of "blackmail" people into believing rather than them beleiving through faith. How come you then mention evidence? Excluding anecdotal evidence like the business manager, what kind of 'evidence' is there? I know this is a kind of lazy question but Im intrigued as to what you meant by it.

And also one of the most common queries from atheists is with so much evil happening every day is this not overwhelming proof that there is no God/Allah etc? Or at least that if there is a "God" that he acts far more like the Christian "devil" than the actual God?

ABC101 · 28-11-2014 5:15pm

JC01 wrote: »

I flick through this thread every now and then because I find the concepts of religion quite interesting but this thread is often just people screaming "BELIEVE OR BURN" so it's nice to see you actually have a discussion on things you, as a believer, are asked by atheists.

Two points from that last comment I always wonder about though; you make a valid point re lots of miracles would kind of "blackmail" people into believing rather than them beleiving through faith. How come you then mention evidence? Excluding anecdotal evidence like the business manager, what kind of 'evidence' is there? I know this is a kind of lazy question but Im intrigued as to what you meant by it.

And also one of the most common queries from atheists is with so much evil happening every day is this not overwhelming proof that there is no God/Allah etc? Or at least that if there is a "God" that he acts far more like the Christian "devil" than the actual God?

When I used the word evidence..... I was referring to the evidence of the new limb, eye or what ever part of the body which regrew.

For example..... a person is seriously injured in a car / industrial accident.

They have lost a limb, eye or extensive burn injuries etc. Medical science cannot replace the limb or eye. But the person prays to God / goes to Chruch and when they wake up the next day..... Voila..... a new eye / limb is there and it is functioning perfectly.

That would be the evidence I was referring to in the post above. In that way.... everybody could gather around....and there would be evidence that a miraculous event occured. There would be no doubt that there is a divine being at work. Now imagine this occuring 200 times a year in Ireland... and then scale up for countries with greater populations etc.

WRT your question about evidence of evil in the world.

This is a question of which a great many people have asked themselves. Why is there so much trouble in the world? You don't have to look far back into the past to learn about appaling injustices which have occured. Even today... right now we have the situation in Syria / Iraq, there are other numerous numerous.... in fact too many to mention injustices which are occuring or have occured.

On a first glance there seems to be more evil in the world than good. However while I do not have the 'perfect definitive exact answer' I will offer what I consider to be my most informed opinion.

Satan once loved God.... and apparently there was a deep bond of love between them. However on becoming aware of God's plan to create the world and the human race.... there was a revolt in Heaven. Some of the angels sided with Satan, and others with God.

We don't know much about the angels, we do know that there is a heirarchial structure, some angels are more powerful than others i.e. a Cherub would not be on the same level as St Michael or Gabriel. But in short we do not know a great deal about the angels.

What we have been told is that humans who manage to get into Heaven are at a level higher (pecking order so to speak) than the angels. So you can understand why Satan was upset when he found out he was to be displaced in the pecking order. I suppose that is why humans are created in the image of God... which makes us on a higher level to the angels.

Anyway..... God went ahead with his plan.... created Earth, created humanity etc etc.... however the devil had other ideas.

Satan hated God so much... that while he could not harm God directly... he decided to harm God indirectly. So he set about trying to upset God's plan on Earth. So we have the book of Genesis... and the story of Adam and Eve. I'm not exactly sure what happened in the Garden of Eden... but obviously.... Satan managed to get Adam and Eve to do something which they should not have done, and because of this "their eyes were opened and they realised they were naked".

So it is at this point...it is possible the seven deadly sins were allowed into the minds and hearts of mankind.

As human beings are weak when compared to the power of Satan ( I think Jesus is quoted in one of the Gospels that Satan can shift humans like chaff from wheat), Satan is able to manipulate the badness which can be present in humans..... in particular greed.

I am open to correction... but one of the visionaries in Medjuorgie asked our lady this question a few years ago.... "Why is there so much trouble in the world"? Our Lady responded by saying "it is due to the Greed of mankind which is causing so much trouble".

Remember too... that it is not just humans who are suffering to various degrees. But God is being hurt when people curse him, insult him etc.

In addition the Holy Family... Jesus, Mary & Joesph... they also suffered during time on Earth i..e. Persecution by Herod, flight into Egypt, no room at the Inn etc etc... and of course the suffering of Jesus Christ particularly the time before his crucfixation, ie..mocked by the soldiers, scouraged at the pillar, crown of thorns, carrying of the cross etc etc.

Apart from the suffering Jesus Christ went through.... I am sure the Virgin Mary could not understand it, why is God allowing his only son to go through such appaling cruelty? But she just accepted it and placed these things in her heart.

So here we are today... 2014.... and thousands of years of suffering has passed since the time of Jesus Christ... not to mention the time B.C.

What we have been told by St John in the book of Revelation... that at the end time (when ever that is, but Howard Storm in his witness testimony seems to think it is around 2185, but it is not a good idea to get into dates... because you are attempting to second guess God)... there will be a New Heaven and a New Earth, because the first Heaven and the First Earth will have passed away.

So we have been told.... that the bad times will come to an end at some future date, and the good times will restart after Judgement day.

So in short... planet Earth is seriously messed up (yep definetly agree with you there). Humans are acting with appaling injustices to other humans, or through inaction allowing injustice to occur. There are good people who attempt to make a good difference to the lives of others i.e. caring for the sick being just one example. We know Satan can manipulate humans, tempt them so to speak. We are aware of seven deadly sins, Pride, Avarice, Lust, Anger, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth, which can affect different people to different degrees.

But there are good people out there too, probably more than we know... and we have to keep up our love of God & faith / hope in humanity that things will come right again, maybe not in our lifetime... but perhaps in the near future.

RikuoAmero · 28-11-2014 6:29pm

Harika wrote: »

This claim has been tested, if a person that people pray for will have a higher chance to survive or get better than if no one is praying for them: (again please enter the hyperlink before) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_intercessory_prayer
No positive effect could be verified for the people prayed for compared to the people that were not prayed for.
It has also been tested what happens to very sick people that get the last rites, compared to no last rites. Here the people who did not get the last rites had a higher chance to survive. Why is that so? Scientists believe this is caused by the last rites itself because the patent who receives the last rites realizes how bad his situation is and might surrender. The religious reply was that this is nothing god would need to show.

And for the last part, I heard of seriously ill / terminally ill atheists and agnostics that recovered, while I also heard of healthy people that went to Lourdes to pray that died there of heart attacks or strokes, while non-believers and even Satanists went there and came back healthy and alive.
I understand that by religion people are made to believe to link all good to god, while the bad things are caused by satan or the guilty humans itself. Or the above is justified by “God’s ways are mysterious” or from my youth “Shut up and pray”

I've heard of experiments on the efficacy of prayer, but they are flawed and simply CANNOT. BE DONE.
The reason being that there is no such thing as an anti-prayer shield we can erect around the test subjects. Sure the people conducting the experiment will pray and not pray at designated times, but how are they to screen for prayers being uttered by people all over the world? I remember as a kid praying multiple times for everyone to not have to suffer a disease or to get cured. If prayer actually does have some sort of magical effect, in order to conduct this experiment, we'd have to find some way to stop those prayers from either being uttered or from having any effect.

That would be the evidence I was referring to in the post above. In that way.... everybody could gather around....and there would be evidence that a miraculous event occured. There would be no doubt that there is a divine being at work.

According to what I read in the new testament, Jesus did things like this every other day. He healed people, raised the dead on a few occasions, magicked food into existence to feed a crowd, died and rose from the dead himself etc.
If you go back into the old testament, I read stories about God doing all sorts of magical events/miracles: helping the Jews win battles, flooding the planet, creating the entire universe ex nihilo, etc.
So there, we've got precedent for your god showing himself, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to people of the day, doing miraculous things that those people can see, and is perfectly okay with people knowing of his existence beyond a shadow of a doubt, and believing in him then.
For your "God wants to respect our free will" claim to stick, there would have to be NO stories about him interfering with our world that are claimed to be true. Also, there would have to be no judgement for those who, like me, exercise free will and come to a conclusion that it's not convincing.

Also ABC101, I have to comment on your explanation for why there is evil in the world. You acknowledge that it is a difficult question...and then proceed to explain it by saying it's due to the actions of these magical beings for which we have no evidence.
Sorry, but that's not good enough. That is EXACTLY like me asking my parents "How do the christmas presents get filled" and them answering "Santa visits during the night and magically puts the actual presents in".
In both your answer and what my parents said, I am told that an immortal entity that I will never see and can never see has magical powers to affect reality.
I'm sorry, but if I was to be told that Santa story again, I would disbelieve it, just as much as I disbelieve your Satan story. I have no evidence for ANY of these characters, barring a book. It is also wrong of you to say (in this thread at least) "We know Satan can manipulate humans" etc. Wait, who's we? What does we encompass? Also, how is it that you justify this claim of knowledge?

ABC101 · 28-11-2014 7:39pm

Harika wrote: »

Sure those are all nice examples why someone believe, while I understand that it is enough for others for me those examples are not sufficient to believe that god did this to them. For me those are just random events that are not linked, cause did the shop owner not pray before? So why did god let him get into this situation in first? Could it be that some friend heard about his problems and decided to give him money but he knew he would never accept it so asked some friend of him to drop it into the shop?
Also there was an example of starving or molested children, that pray to god but neither hunger nor abuse did stop? So what does it tell about that god who gives money away but let people starve to death or let the abuse continue?

Firstly I do not have all the answers....but

For you or me as an outsider it could appear as random events... but for the manager of the business (and no it was not a shop) it was not down to chance.

The manager was deeply religious before he set up his business. He got off to a good start but as time went on it became clear that the market was not big enough. So it was only a matter of time before the whole thing folded.

In relation to the money being dropped in.... it did not come from a friend... but a complete stranger to the manager. Money was only one example... there were many other difficulties as well, not just cashflow.

This is what I was referring to above... the relationship between a person who has a love of God.... and various events which could and do occur in that persons life. It is a personal relationship.

Your other question... about how could God allow the person he loves to fail in their business. God does not treat religious people any more differently to you or I.

Religious people get hurt just as much as non religious. Look at Pope Francis.... he only has 1 lung. Pope John Paul II got shot. In the last 15 years more than 1/2 million Christians have been exterminated in Iraq, possibly even more. The world just stands by, including so called Christian Europe.

Just because you are religious or have a love of God... does not mean your life will be a milk run, or have a silver spoon in your mouth etc etc.

In relation to your point about starving children, abused children and as to how this is allowed to occur. As I mentioned in the other post... there are numerous examples of injustice all over the world. I do not know why some prayers are answered.. and others are not. I just don't know. I know for a fact that a few of my prayers have been answered....and some important ones (important to me anyway) have not / not yet been answered.

Almost all of these injustices are done by man being cruel or indifferent to other people, including children. It is not God who is polluting the ground water etc.

Perhaps God in the main.... allows humanity to do what it wants to do.... he allows injustices to occur.... because when a person dies.... he can then take them to paradise?

RikuoAmero · 28-11-2014 8:03pm

ABC101 wrote: »

Firstly I do not have all the answers....but

For you or me as an outsider it could appear as random events... but for the manager of the business (and no it was not a shop) it was not down to chance.

The manager was deeply religious before he set up his business. He got off to a good start but as time went on it became clear that the market was not big enough. So it was only a matter of time before the whole thing folded.

In relation to the money being dropped in.... it did not come from a friend... but a complete stranger to the manager. Money was only one example... there were many other difficulties as well, not just cashflow.

This is what I was referring to above... the relationship between a person who has a love of God.... and various events which could and do occur in that persons life. It is a personal relationship.

Your other question... about how could God allow the person he loves to fail in their business. God does not treat religious people any more differently to you or I.

Religious people get hurt just as much as non religious. Look at Pope Francis.... he only has 1 lung. Pope John Paul II got shot. In the last 15 years more than 1/2 million Christians have been exterminated in Iraq, possibly even more. The world just stands by, including so called Christian Europe.

Just because you are religious or have a love of God... does not mean your life will be a milk run, or have a silver spoon in your mouth etc etc.

In relation to your point about starving children, abused children and as to how this is allowed to occur. As I mentioned in the other post... there are numerous examples of injustice all over the world. I do not know why some prayers are answered.. and others are not. I just don't know. I know for a fact that a few of my prayers have been answered....and some important ones (important to me anyway) have not / not yet been answered.

Almost all of these injustices are done by man being cruel or indifferent to other people, including children. It is not God who is polluting the ground water etc.

Perhaps God in the main.... allows humanity to do what it wants to do.... he allows injustices to occur.... because when a person dies.... he can then take them to paradise?

The key point that, I think, Harika is trying to make here is that God (if he exists) is unreliable. As in, he's like that friend who does like and respect you, but you can never be sure he'll actually turn up and help you when you need it, despite earnest promises from him in the past that he actually will if all you do is ask for it.
Also, for your story about the shop to be convincing, you have to first provide evidence for it. So far, at best, it is an anecdote. I don't know if it's true or not. You could be making the whole thing up for all I know. I honestly don't think you are, but it helps your case a whole lot if you can remove that possibility for me.

ABC101 · 28-11-2014 10:32pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

The key point that, I think, Harika is trying to make here is that God (if he exists) is unreliable. As in, he's like that friend who does like and respect you, but you can never be sure he'll actually turn up and help you when you need it, despite earnest promises from him in the past that he actually will if all you do is ask for it.
Also, for your story about the shop to be convincing, you have to first provide evidence for it. So far, at best, it is an anecdote. I don't know if it's true or not. You could be making the whole thing up for all I know. I honestly don't think you are, but it helps your case a whole lot if you can remove that possibility for me.

RikuoAmero....

You have asked so many questions.... I'm not sure where to start. In addition I am on a very poor internet connection....regularly drops out. One of the reasons why I don't like posting here is just that.... I cannot devote the time, and frequently when I do it gets lost / drops etc. In a number of respects I think it is wrong for me to start a conversation with members here and then... I just drop off.

Your point about evidence. You are correct.... I have shown none...only that of my knowledge of my friend. It could be all made up..but what is the point of me making up stories? I mean it is not as if I am making monetary gain by posting here, or everytime somebody posts or retweets my comment I earn a cent etc etc.

On a blog site... I cannot produce anything tangible..... I can post links.. but I'm not going to give out my friends name, ph number and if you want to verify what I have written, you can pop around to ask him various questions. You might not even be in the same country as him.

I'm not going to do that... and what would it prove anyway? Because perhaps my friend is in on it as well.... perhaps the two of us made it all up together? What if his word was not enough? Would you require to see the company accounts? At what level would there be enough evidence for you to be satisfied / sure / certain.

I am glad you are prepared to accept my word for it however.

With respect to producing evidence of God.... I am a human being with human limitations. I cannot command an angel, or Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit or God to appear to you or to I. You are also in effect asking me to produce evidence of the Spiritual world. I cannot do it. It's akin to me demanding that you produce rocky soil from Pluto, because you say Pluto exists. We are both limited by our human form.

With respect to God actually appearing to a person. I believe God does not do this, due to God being infinitely beautiful / majestic, the human mind / form would be unable to be exposed to God's great beauty / power / majesty.

That is why in the Bible where God does appear... it is in some other form... i.e. burning bush, a cloud in the shape of a tower, a voice from the sky etc.

The Bible is a spiritual book, new and old testaments. It speaks to the reader in a spiritual manner, not necessarily in a literal sense.

But I keep emphasising this.... God is about Love.... and for those who believe in God it is about their relationship with God. Some people on Earth had very very deep relationships with Jesus Christ. Jesus even appeared to them personally, in Human form.

You asked the question why did God... if he loved my friend so much allow his company to fail?

That is a good question... and I think I can answer that.

With God it is not necessarily what you do (within limits of course).... but it is the fact that you have tried. Think of a parent... they allow their child to make various mistakes. But they allow these mistakes so that they can be a learning lesson for the child. Even if the child eventually fails in what ever it was attempting to do...the child has learnt a lesson.

Think of the new testament reading ..... where the disciples are in the boat... and Jesus comes walking across the water to them. Remember that one?

Peter wants to join Jesus.... Peter wants to walk on water as well. Now to you or I.... that really is a crazy thing to do. We both know we cannot walk on water, well at least I can't!!

But Peter has faith.... Peter gets out of the boat... and lo and behold ..... he starts to walk on water. He is actually doing it for real!! Then the wind springs up.. gets a bit choppy and Peter starts to sink, holds out his hand and asks Jesus to save him.

The kernel of this story... is not that Peter managed to walk on water... but that Peter TRIED.

That is the real kernel... Peter Tried...... he got out of the boat and he tried.

It is a reminder to the rest of us..... we all have to get out of our comfort zone and try to follow in the footsteps of Jesus.

My friends business... was a bit similar ..... my friend tried. And he called out to Jesus to help him many many times. And his company ended up sinking but during the experience his faith only deepened.

Atheists keep asking for evidence... but I ask you.... if you were to consider getting married, or chose a career..... how do you know it will work out?

How do you know that the person you married in your 20's or 30's..... will still be at your side, through good times and rough.... when you are in your old age?

How do you know when choosing a career after leaving school.... that you are going to be good at it? Or that you will really enjoy it?

Why try anything, whether it be marriage, a career, or developing a skill if you do not have concrete evidence that you are going to be good at it?

I mean.... how can you be really certain.... really 100% sure????

The simple answer is... you just don't know for absolute certainty before you embark on any of these decisions. What you do know is that you are going to give it your best shot, and you expect your spouse to do the same. Or you are going to practise painting art... in the hope of becoming a good artist / musician / engineer / pilot or what ever.

You give it your best shot.... as difficulties arise along the way... you attempt to sort them out as best you can.

That is life really.... there is not much certainty in anything (death & taxes!!).

Rik.... I cannot give you all the answers, because I don't have them. But I would suggest you have a look at a book called "The Faith Explained" by Leo J Therese. Here is the amazon link.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Faith-Explained-Leo-Trese/dp/1889334294

Paperback from $6.90 USD.

It is a small book, but fairly thick.... and it is a good read. If you are in Dublin.. I think there is a shop called Veritas on Abbey st... they should have a copy.

You can read it in your own time, at your own pace etc etc

If you don't like it... then you can put it aside or give it away to a friend or relation etc,....... but at least you will have given it a go!!! You will have tried!!

lazybones32 · 29-11-2014 5:49am

ABC101...this is what our Lord meant when he said "do not be unequally yoked..."

You must witness, give reason. Never were you commanded to convince or convert. You have to give and let God. Your faithfulness and love is all that is required.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 29-11-2014 8:31am

Why don't these folk keep their nose out and live their lives as they see fit without having to snipe and sneer at Christianity. Imo it's the reason nobody takes them seriously in Ireland, they're viewed as a bunch of flakey blowhards.

This isn't true in all cases of course, but I feel the 'angry young man demo' are overrepresented online, big socially stagnant 'WOW' playing Star Trek watching freaks thinking they're repressed etc.

The open minded folk sometimes struggle to be heard because of these childish muppets hogging the stage and **** over each other.

Maturity and understanding between the Atheist and the Religious won't happen until they grow up.

RikuoAmero · 29-11-2014 8:38am

ABC101

I am sorry to hear that you have a slow internet connection. What I suggest you do on these forums is either save the web pages, or copy and paste the text into documents and save those, so you can read them and work on your response later. I shall be going through your points now.

It could be all made up..but what is the point of me making up stories? I mean it is not as if I am making monetary gain by posting here, or everytime somebody posts or retweets my comment I earn a cent etc etc.

Monetary gain isn't the only reason why a person would make up a story. Given that you believe christianity to be true, then this means logically that you believe no other religion to be true - unless I'm mistaken, this means that for you, those religions were made up for one reason or another.
Person A could be told something by Person B, and A believes it to be true and spreads word about it for no monetary gain, but B lied to A. That is a real possibility.
As someone who searches for truth, think of me as a sieve. I sift possibilities, until I'm left with only the truth. So if you want me to believe something, you have to provide evidence.
If you don't want to provide private details about your friend, that's fine, that's your choice. Just understand that for me, your story is unconvincing, since all I can see is an anecdote.

Because perhaps my friend is in on it as well.... perhaps the two of us made it all up together?

A distinct possibility, but I don't think it likely.

What if his word was not enough?

Let's pretend for a moment you gave me your friend's details and I popped around to see him today. My answer would be no...his word would not be enough. After all, I've only just met the person. I don't know him, I have no reason to trust him, especially when he's making grandiose claims.

Would you require to see the company accounts? At what level would there be enough evidence for you to be satisfied / sure / certain

If I was really dead-set on investigating this, then yes, I would want to see the accounts. It's a very strange claim that a complete stranger would pop in with a large amount of money and just donate it to help the business survive - if the stranger's motivation was charity, why not donate it to an actual charity? Why give it to a for-profit business?
However, I'm not going to go out and say the story is impossible. I've often fantasised what I'd do if I became rich, and one of those things is donating to a few for-profit companies that I really like (in my case, it would be the Youtube company, Linus Media Group, which operates the channels LinusTechTips, Fast As Possible and Techquickie).

It's akin to me demanding that you produce rocky soil from Pluto, because you say Pluto exists. We are both limited by our human form.

There is no need for me to produce soil. Pluto was predicted to exist in mathematics long before it was first seen by telescopes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluto
"In the 1840s, using Newtonian mechanics, Urbain Le Verrier predicted the position of the then-undiscovered planet Neptune after analysing perturbations in the orbit of Uranus. Subsequent observations of Neptune in the late 19th century caused astronomers to speculate that Uranus' orbit was being disturbed by another planet besides Neptune."
"On February 18, 1930, after nearly a year of searching, [Clyde] Tombaugh discovered a possible moving object on photographic plates taken on January 23 and January 29 of that year. A lesser-quality photograph taken on January 21 helped confirm the movement."
If in this hypothetical discussion, you were to insist on me producing soil before believing in the existence of Pluto, I would have to question whether you believed in the existence of the other planets, given that the same evidence that supports the existence of Pluto also supports them (mathematics, sightings through telescopes, photographs). If you did believe them, then this would be a case of logical fallacy of special pleading on your part.

With respect to God actually appearing to a person. I believe God does not do this, due to God being infinitely beautiful / majestic, the human mind / form would be unable to be exposed to God's great beauty / power / majesty.

That is why in the Bible where God does appear... it is in some other form... i.e. burning bush, a cloud in the shape of a tower, a voice from the sky etc.

I counter this by pointing to the new testament, where God is said to be in the form of a man, and people were apparently okay with seeing him walking around and talking. So it seems to me that your religion says there is literally no problem at all for your god to appear in front of humans and talk to them.

The Bible is a spiritual book, new and old testaments. It speaks to the reader in a spiritual manner, not necessarily in a literal sense.

If you are trying to dismiss my mentioning of events in the old testament (such as Moses or the flood), then understand this. The events in the OT that contain magic (and hence are so unbelievable) are written in more or less the same way as events in the OT that contain magic. If you see no problem at all with dismissing for example the flood story because it contains magic, why is it that you don't dismiss the Jesus story? That story contains tons of magic (a virgin birth in an age where there's no IVF, a man walking on water etc)
I also have to mention a poster that I've seen quite a few times on the bus. It goes something along these lines (can't remember the exact wording) "Do you believe Jesus to be the son of the living God? If he is not, then our faith is in vain". That poster always cracks me up, because it's advertising christianity, saying it's true, and yet not giving the reader a reason to believe it's true. In fact, it exposes the massive problem - none of what Jesus supposedly taught is to be taken seriously by a christian UNLESS that christian also accepts Jesus to be divine. At which point, I always have to ask "What does Jesus being divine add to the equation?" If you teach me that it's a good thing to be nice to other people, and more importantly, give me sound cogent reasons why I should, then you don't need to reinforce it by giving it a stamp of godly authority.
Then again, I've heard from plenty of christians who literally say to me that without god, they'd run amok causing chaos. At which point I despair for humanity.

But I keep emphasising this.... God is about Love

Unfortunately, I cannot believe this claim. All I have to do is read the bible, and I see plenty of stories where the attribute love cannot be put on the character called God.
This is a major problem for christianity, because it's an offshoot of the Jewish religion. Christianity's holy book contains both Old and New Testaments. Therefore, half the book contains stories of a blood-thirsty, jealous and vengeful war god.
Christianity's claims of a god of love would have been far more believable if it had been a new religion, rather than being the claimed fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and retaining Jewish texts. Then again, if it had done that, there would be a problem there. If it had not retained Jewish texts, then Jesus would have been the fulfillment of a now non-referenced prophecy. So it's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't kind of problem there.

With God it is not necessarily what you do (within limits of course).... but it is the fact that you have tried. Think of a parent... they allow their child to make various mistakes.

The parent analogy fails, because there are limits to what I, as a parent, would allow my child to do. I would never allow the child to do or suffer something they can't handle. I would allow my child to run around, fall on the ground and maybe skin his knee, thus teaching him to be careful of his surroundings. I would never let my child suffer a disease or a disaster merely to teach a lesson.
If a child gets cancer and dies, what lesson has the child learned?

Think of the new testament reading ..... where the disciples are in the boat... and Jesus comes walking across the water to them. Remember that one?

What I get out of that is that apparently Jesus wants you to do dangerous things. Sure, step off the boat, you'll walk on water! Step out of the airplane or off a cliff, you'll fly like Superman!
Sorry, but no, I will not accept this story.

And his company ended up sinking

I could've sworn you said that the stranger came in with a load of money and donated it to help the business survive. Oh wait, upon re-reading, I see that you mentioned that the donation helped the business to survive...for all OF A WEEK.
Wow...and that's supposed to impress me? This is either the best your god can do, or that is the limit of his "generosity". A mere extra week of life for the business. Also, was the stranger questioned as to his reasons for donating the money?
How does your friend figure out that it was the god he prayed to that somehow caused the stranger to donate the money? (How do you square this with the often-claimed "God respects free will"?) How does he know it wasn't some other god who did, to show their existence and power?

How do you know that the person you married in your 20's or 30's..... will still be at your side, through good times and rough.... when you are in your old age?

I don't know for certain, but that person would have earned my trust. The same cannot be said of your god. In your own story, he only helped the business survive for a mere week apparently.
My chosen spouse would have done far more than that. They would have stuck to me through thick and thin, helped me when I needed it, accepted whatever help I gave them when they needed it.
I hear that similar things are claimed about God, but he's never once shown to actually be there! If someone hears me talk about my fiance, I can produce the fiance to show them. I can't do the same for God if I was a christian.

Why try anything, whether it be marriage, a career, or developing a skill if you do not have concrete evidence that you are going to be good at it?

I mean.... how can you be really certain.... really 100% sure????

You've made a MASSIVE mistake here. You think that I, as an atheist, work off of or require 100% certainty for something.
I don't. I examine the nature of the claim, assign it a probability given how extraordinary it is, and examine the evidence in support of that claim.
I accept that 100% certainty is impossible in the general sense (except for the three laws of logic i.e. Law of Identity, Law of Non-contradiction, Law of Excluded Middle)

The simple answer is... you just don't know for absolute certainty before you embark on any of these decisions. What you do know is that you are going to give it your best shot, and you expect your spouse to do the same. Or you are going to practise painting art... in the hope of becoming a good artist / musician / engineer / pilot or what ever.

And nothing in there requires or justifies a belief in a divine entity of any kind. I have done things, tried things, both while I was a believer and after, and succeeded and failed at more or less the same rate. Belief in a god didn't help my chances of success any.

You will have tried!!

I have mentioned in numerous other comments here that I was once a believer. I DID try. And the belief did not pass the test, so I discarded it.

lazybones wrote:

You must witness, give reason.

If the reason is sound, and supported by good evidence, then I would be converted. If the reason is unsound and not supported, then I won't.

Harika · 29-11-2014 1:06pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why don't these folk keep their nose out and live their lives as they see fit without having to snipe and sneer at Christianity. Imo it's the reason nobody takes them seriously in Ireland, they're viewed as a bunch of flakey blowhards.

This isn't true in all cases of course, but I feel the 'angry young man demo' are overrepresented online, big socially stagnant 'WOW' playing Star Trek watching freaks thinking they're repressed etc.

The open minded folk sometimes struggle to be heard because of these childish muppets hogging the stage and **** over each other.

Maturity and understanding between the Atheist and the Religious won't happen until they grow up.

I would be happy if I could keep my nose out of it, but as long as the god and the bible are used to justify changes or blocking in legal and social systems I will have to dig my heel into it. I have no issue when religious people are living their life after the bible or god's will, but why are non-religious people forced to live under those rules that are contrary to my believes. That does not mean that I disapprove or accept everything that is based on humanistic goals but I am happy to have a discussion about it that is based on humans, not a god that for me does not exist.
Or as ABC101 stated that there are prophecies that claim the world will end in 2180, and here a lot of people already burned the fingers, let's laugh together at the rapture from last year, my goal is to ensure earth will be habitable for humans in 2280, even when I am already long dead. I want to work towards the happiness of all people, where a consent is created so we all can live together in peace, and for my point of view, several gods and religions don't want to compromise here, or better said people that use this words, to justify killing and wars, because their truth is the only truth.
And I wanna also state that ABC101 is a lot harder to discuss, compared to others here, as he is already aware that some things cannot be proven, or only proven by faith why an atheist would ask for truth. So imo both sides are correct, from their point of view. And he has not the tendency to call people that think differently muppets or other smear words.

ABC101 · 29-11-2014 1:29pm

@ Rik,

Fair enough... it was good debating with you. I was only offering a clarification from the view point of a Christian believer.

I don't have all the answers.. but I did offer what I could.

By the way just in case .... I do believe in the existance of Pluto... it was just an example I was using etc etc, I think you know that!!

I think you are still open to the truth.... I think also that you are personally searching for truth. I get this impression from your posts and the questions you ask.

Now I could be wrong in this impression, but so what if I am.

I would ask you to keep an eye out for the book I mentioned in a previous post... "The Faith Explained" Leo J. Therese.... it is not expensive, you may come across it some day... and if you do... I would ask you to give it a go.

I'm not sure if it will completely answer all your questions... but it may offer some.

In addition.... a few posts back you mentioned about going through a bit of a dark espisode in your personal life. I would just like to express my admiration for your courage to say that publically. Yes, I know you have an anonymous name on this site... and as such it offers a level of privacy. But I think it takes courage to say it.

As for me... I am intrigued by atheists and their logic. It is not that I want to debate with them or score debating points or show off fancy intricate use of English words etc ... but to share with them the great joy that is to be a believer in God.

But as in the time of Jesus... he debated with many people, some of whom accepted his teaching, while others rejected it. So if people were unwilling to accept the logic / reasoning / answers offered by Jesus... then I could hardly do better!!

I will still chip in from time to time offering clarifications about various religious events for example you mentioned the Virgin Birth. That is a popular misunderstanding, but the explanation is that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. This is because it was the Holy Spirit who came to her. As the Holy Spirit is a spirit... it does not possess a sexual reproducitve organ as a human man does. Hence Mary retained her virginity at Jesus conception and all during her life.

RikuoAmero · 29-11-2014 2:04pm

I don't have all the answers.. but I did offer what I could.

That's fine, I have no beef with that statement, since I apply the very same to myself (I, Rikuo, don't have all the answers, I offer only what I can).
What I have a problem with is when a believer in a religion comes along and says "This is the one true religion, I have the one true holy book containing the definitive word of GOD HIMSELF". At that point, they had better have all the answers, after all, if what they're saying is true, then God will answer all of my questions.
The instant I examine the religion, I ask it a question and there is no answer, then I have to dismiss it as false.

By the way just in case .... I do believe in the existance of Pluto... it was just an example I was using etc etc, I think you know that!!

Yes I know, I figured that out. I was running with that claim as a hypothetical scenario i.e. imagining you actually asking me for Pluto rocks, and me asking you why you require rocks from Pluto before you would accept Pluto to exist, but not require the same for the other planets.

I think you are still open to the truth.... I think also that you are personally searching for truth. I get this impression from your posts and the questions you ask.

Yes I am. I believe that truth is that which comports to reality. Which is why I have said on a few occasions that when I go onto christian forums or boards, that if christianity is the truth, then the evidence and arguments they bring up in support of it ought to reflect reality and thus convince me.

I will keep an eye out for the book, but it's basically (from the Amazon description) a condensed version of the catechism. I don't need a condensed version when I can go to the Vatican's website and read the actual catechism in full.
Plus, I doubt either this book or the actual catechism would do much for me. Do either of them back up their arguments with evidence that isn't the bible/church tradition/Aquinas?

In addition.... a few posts back you mentioned about going through a bit of a dark espisode in your personal life. I would just like to express my admiration for your courage to say that publically. Yes, I know you have an anonymous name on this site... and as such it offers a level of privacy. But I think it takes courage to say it.

Thank you for that. I did it to rebut someone else's "atheist in foxholes" argument. Yes, I did have a brief moment where I considered praying, but then my logical side kicked in and reminded me that I have literally no justification for expecting prayer to work (especially since it didn't work when I was a child and my life was much much worse than it is now. Maybe I should have been praying to Allah all along?).
Basically, I wanted to point out how those who grow up in a religion more than likely never fully escape it. At least for me, there is this small part of my mind that remembers believing in christianity and hearkens back to it. Simply because, in a stressful situation, I might utter a catholic prayer does not in any way substantiate the claim that christianity is true, or that roman catholicism in particular is true.

As for me... I am intrigued by atheists and their logic. It is not that I want to debate with them or score debating points or show off fancy intricate use of English words etc ... but to share with them the great joy that is to be a believer in God.

Notice what you said there please. The great joy that it is to be a believer in God. That is a completely separate thing than saying " To show you that God exists". There are somewhat valid arguments I have heard for spreading false information and making sure people believe that which is false. For example, if empirical study revealed that populations actually do descend into anarchy and chaos if the vast majority disregard a previously held religious belief, than I might find myself arguing in favour of preaching religion, for the sake of peace, law and order...even though I don't believe it (the religion) to be true.
If you want to share with me this joy, you have to show me that there actually is joy and happiness and that it can only be found by believing in your god. As far as I'm able to determine, this is false, but go ahead and try to convince me.
Also this line reveals a false premise from the side of the theist - that belief in the supernatural and expressing that belief is one and the same with actually demonstrating the supernatural. No, it is not. It is demonstrating the belief, not the supernatural itself.

I will still chip in from time to time offering clarifications about various religious events for example you mentioned the Virgin Birth. That is a popular misunderstanding, but the explanation is that Mary was a virgin when she conceived Jesus. This is because it was the Holy Spirit who came to her. As the Holy Spirit is a spirit... it does not possess a sexual reproducitve organ as a human man does. Hence Mary retained her virginity at Jesus conception and all during her life.

I know and understand the story. You basically proved my point in that the Jesus story contains elements of magic, the very same elements that would make you regard any other story that contains the same elements as being false/legend/myth.
Basically, we KNOW, beyond a doubt, that human reproduction occurs naturally when a man inserts his penis into a woman's vagina and expels sperm. It can also be accomplished artificially via IVF, but this requires the expectant mother to live in a society with knowledge of advanced biology, chemistry and technology. If a woman comes along from a society that contains none of those things, she's visibly pregnant and yet she claims to still be a virgin, we know to accept her story as false (to clarify, this isn't what I'm seeing with regards to christianity. I don't have the actual mother, Mary, in front of me to examine and question. I have a story in an ancient book that claims she was a virgin at the time of conception. That's it)
Now I want you to answer this question for me yes or no - if you heard the virgin mother story from any other source, would you believe it? To make it a little easier, pretend you're seeing Star Wars Episode I for the very first time in your life. Pretend you know nothing about movies or fiction or stories. When Anakin's mother is talking to Qui-Gon and mentions "There was no father", do you then say to yourself "I believe Anakin is real, and that his mother was a virgin while she was pregnant"

Benny_Cake · 29-11-2014 2:15pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Why don't these folk keep their nose out and live their lives as they see fit without having to snipe and sneer at Christianity. Imo it's the reason nobody takes them seriously in Ireland, they're viewed as a bunch of flakey blowhards.

This isn't true in all cases of course, but I feel the 'angry young man demo' are overrepresented online, big socially stagnant 'WOW' playing Star Trek watching freaks thinking they're repressed etc.

Mod: This thread is for the discussion of ideas relating to atheism and the existence of God. Best to leave the atheist/theist stereotypes out of it.

ABC101 · 29-11-2014 5:28pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

If you want to share with me this joy, you have to show me that there actually is joy and happiness and that it can only be found by believing in your god. As far as I'm able to determine, this is false, but go ahead and try

Now I want you to answer this question for me yes or no - if you heard the virgin mother story from any other source, would you believe it? To make it a little easier, pretend you're seeing Star Wars Episode I for the very first time in your life. Pretend you know nothing about movies or fiction or stories. When Anakin's mother is talking to Qui-Gon and mentions "There was no father", do you then say to yourself "I believe Anakin is real, and that his mother was a virgin while she was pregnant"

Your first paragraph above... that is a good point. Basically believers should be happy in their belief. That is not to say they go around smiling all day....because believers are human... they have their ups and downs like anybody else, I saw a woman once... who believed but she also carried a very heavy burden of depression.
That is not to say her faith caused her to be depressed... as you well know depression is something that can affect anybody, believers / athiests / lapsed believers etc etc

But as a believer... particularly in Christianity... I should be happy in the belief that there is a God and he loves me for what I am etc.

Maybe that is where Christians... should be a bit more happier... maybe they don't do that enough. I suppose it could be called living your faith through your life, or some other terms.

Sometimes we forget this... however last year Pope Francis brought out a publication EVANGELII GAUDIUM... link here..

https://w2.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/apost_exhortations/documents/papa-francesco_esortazione-ap_20131124_evangelii-gaudium.html

The word Joy is mentioned many many times. I have not counted the number... but it is a lot.

But you will meet some Christians from time to time who are very happy in their faith, and this happiness kind of shines through... or permeates into other facades of their life / personality. I know several myself.... they may not travel around all smiles... but they have a form of contentment.

Maybe that is the only form of physical evidence I can offer you.... where believers tend to be happier people, or more at peace with themselves. I do not have the links... but I have frequently heard it said that various studies have shown that statistically religious believers are happier and even live longer, are better able to overcome severe trouble in their personal life. You may have heard this quoted before by others.... you may even have access to the links on the www.

But Roman Catholism teaches us that even belief will not get you into Heaven. A person who believes has to believe and carry out good works i..e charity to the poor being just one example. One cannot just talk the talk... one has to walk the walk as well. In short Faith alone will not save you, only faith and good works.

Have you ever heard it said... that there can be great joy in giving to others? I hear it from time to time in the media.

Now your second question... about if I were to hear the virgin mother story from another source. Firstly there are a great many things which I have difficulty in believing. For example... some religions believe in reincarnation... if you were bold when you were alive, you come back as a cockroach / snake / worm etc etc.

I would also accept that for other people who are not familiar with Christianity... that there are a great many mysteries... one being the Virgin Mary, Christ Dying on the Cross etc etc etc.

In addition to outsiders of Christianity who would have trouble believing in various aspects of the religion... there are also insiders who had difficulty believing / understanding as well. Or they believed, but there was no doctrinal / logical explanation WRT a certain mystery. Let me give one example..

In 1858 our Lady appeared to Bernadette and announced herself as the Immaculate Conception. For many many years before this event... it was a great mystery if this was true or not. There was no official confirmation either way... however it was only confirmed in 1858 when our Lady appeared to Bernadette.

So you see... there are still many mysteries which believers do not know the answers to. For those people who know nothing about Christianity and in particular R.Catholism it can be very difficult to understand the teaching / explanations.

But for me ... in my opinion... R.Catholic religion is a evolving process.... sometimes hundreds of years pass before a mystery is fully understood. The basic fundamental structures remain the same... ie..Confession, the Sacraments etc etc. But for me... I don't have to know everything.. I don't have to understand everything in my Faith to be accepting of it.

Humans have this ability.... take for example the internal combustion engine. Most drivers in Ireland would not be able to explain how the ICE actually works, yet they have no trouble in buying a car, learning to drive and using it every day, tax it, insure it, service it, take it to the garage when it breaks down.. One lady friend of mine did not know what the tachometer was for ... but she was still a good driver, others have no idea about ESP or ABS, traction control or how an airbag works, but still they get from A to B o.k.

Humans have this ability to adapt, accept various theories not just in Religion... but also in Science, medicine and other areas of the physical world / universe. There is a lot which us humans don't fully understand yet, but we have an ability to be able to get on with it.

But it is important not to lose sight of the real goal.... that is to grow to love God more and more... in fact Jesus says this is the first and most important commandment.

RikuoAmero · 29-11-2014 6:13pm

But Roman Catholism teaches us that even belief will not get you into Heaven. A person who believes has to believe and carry out good works i..e charity to the poor being just one example. One cannot just talk the talk... one has to walk the walk as well. In short Faith alone will not save you, only faith and good works.

If I talk to someone from a different denomination of christianity, they will say otherwise. They will say belief alone is enough. Both you and he are pointing to the same book, the bible (although, not the same edition or translation).
So I've got you, ABC, pointing to a catholic endorsed version of the bible and saying "See! You need to do good deeds too!"
Then I have someone from a lutheran church, pointing to the King James, saying "See! Belief alone is enough!"

In 1858 our Lady appeared to Bernadette and announced herself as the Immaculate Conception. For many many years before this event... it was a great mystery if this was true or not. There was no official confirmation either way... however it was only confirmed in 1858 when our Lady appeared to Bernadette.

Again, I'm somehow expected to believe, minus evidence, that a woman who had been dead for 1800 years appeared to a girl in France.
I understand that this is what you believe, what you accept to be true as having happened...but it's a hard pill to swallow for me.
It's yet again another situation from you explaining something mysterious about the world by using magic. So according to you, catholic scholars didn't have a clue about something about Mary (yes I said that deliberately)...but the mystery was solved when a ghost appeared to a teenage girl in France!

Also...you never actually answered my question. Let me rephrase it: let's pretend you have never heard of christianity. If some woman comes up to you and says "I'm pregnant, from a society with no understanding of biology or technology, but I was a virgin even after the conception", would you believe her?

As for your analogy about a car engine - there are people who understand them very well. They're called mechanics. They can demonstrate their knowledge by taking them apart, putting them back together again and having the engine work.
The same cannot be said for God. Oh, you might say there are priests, bishops and cardinals...but they can never demonstrate their knowledge. There is no God that I can examine. Unlike with mechanics, who all learn the exact same thing, there are different branches all claiming contradictory things about God. If I take my car to Rome and then to Texas, mechanics in both places will be able to work on my car's engine.
However, if I talk to a catholic priest in Rome, and then a baptist minister in Texas, I'll be told contradictory things. Both have completely different approaches. Both cannot be true at the same time (e.g. the catholic priest claiming the pope to be Jesus's vicar on Earth, while the baptist minister says catholicism is a false and distorted version of christianity).
Also your car engine analogy exposes one of the major problems I have with religion. Yes, I as the driver of the car don't have to understand the car inside and out in order to use it; I can pay someone else to do that for me. However, your analogy has the implication that people don't have to understand their God belief: just believe it, accept it as true and continue on with their lives.
Really? The single most important thing in the universe, and you're giving off the implication that people ought not to examine the belief?

But it is important not to lose sight of the real goal.... that is to grow to love God more and more... in fact Jesus says this is the first and most important commandment.

Love is not worth anything if it's commanded. Love is either earned or freely given, and should never be demanded. Plus, I can't love something if I'm not convinced if that something exists. Oops, guess I'm breaking the commandment there, and I somehow deserve punishment.

Please, in the future, when you make assertions like this, PLEASE give your justifications beyond "Jesus says". That means nothing to me, will not work on me, because I am not yet convinced I should pay attention to anything Jesus says.

tommy2bad · 29-11-2014 8:05pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

If I talk to someone from a different denomination of christianity, they will say otherwise. They will say belief alone is enough. Both you and he are pointing to the same book, the bible (although, not the same edition or translation).
So I've got you, ABC, pointing to a catholic endorsed version of the bible and saying "See! You need to do good deeds too!"
Then I have someone from a lutheran church, pointing to the King James, saying "See! Belief alone is enough!"

Again, I'm somehow expected to believe, minus evidence, that a woman who had been dead for 1800 years appeared to a girl in France.
I understand that this is what you believe, what you accept to be true as having happened...but it's a hard pill to swallow for me.
It's yet again another situation from you explaining something mysterious about the world by using magic. So according to you, catholic scholars didn't have a clue about something about Mary (yes I said that deliberately)...but the mystery was solved when a ghost appeared to a teenage girl in France!

Also...you never actually answered my question. Let me rephrase it: let's pretend you have never heard of christianity. If some woman comes up to you and says "I'm pregnant, from a society with no understanding of biology or technology, but I was a virgin even after the conception", would you believe her?

As for your analogy about a car engine - there are people who understand them very well. They're called mechanics. They can demonstrate their knowledge by taking them apart, putting them back together again and having the engine work.
The same cannot be said for God. Oh, you might say there are priests, bishops and cardinals...but they can never demonstrate their knowledge. There is no God that I can examine. Unlike with mechanics, who all learn the exact same thing, there are different branches all claiming contradictory things about God. If I take my car to Rome and then to Texas, mechanics in both places will be able to work on my car's engine.
However, if I talk to a catholic priest in Rome, and then a baptist minister in Texas, I'll be told contradictory things. Both have completely different approaches. Both cannot be true at the same time (e.g. the catholic priest claiming the pope to be Jesus's vicar on Earth, while the baptist minister says catholicism is a false and distorted version of christianity).
Also your car engine analogy exposes one of the major problems I have with religion. Yes, I as the driver of the car don't have to understand the car inside and out in order to use it; I can pay someone else to do that for me. However, your analogy has the implication that people don't have to understand their God belief: just believe it, accept it as true and continue on with their lives.
Really? The single most important thing in the universe, and you're giving off the implication that people ought not to examine the belief?

Love is not worth anything if it's commanded. Love is either earned or freely given, and should never be demanded. Plus, I can't love something if I'm not convinced if that something exists. Oops, guess I'm breaking the commandment there, and I somehow deserve punishment.

Please, in the future, when you make assertions like this, PLEASE give your justifications beyond "Jesus says". That means nothing to me, will not work on me, because I am not yet convinced I should pay attention to anything Jesus says.

Just adressing the bit's in bold; first your misrepresenting the classic protestant position, in faith alone, it's not true to say they mean that you can act anyway you like and gain salvation just by believing. It's meant to highlight the fact that good works without faith will leave you in the same position.
Again a misunderstanding of the Immaculate conception, it's not Mary's virginity that grants her the title, it's her lack of original sin. The virginity tradition is separate and has nothing to do with her immaculate conception.
I think you almost get the first commandment, your just being a bit legalistic about it. Love can never be demanded or forced, that fact should give you a clue as to what the commandment actually means.

RikuoAmero · 29-11-2014 8:28pm

tommy2bad wrote: »

Just adressing the bit's in bold; first your misrepresenting the classic protestant position, in faith alone, it's not true to say they mean that you can act anyway you like and gain salvation just by believing. It's meant to highlight the fact that good works without faith will leave you in the same position.
Again a misunderstanding of the Immaculate conception, it's not Mary's virginity that grants her the title, it's her lack of original sin. The virginity tradition is separate and has nothing to do with her immaculate conception.
I think you almost get the first commandment, your just being a bit legalistic about it. Love can never be demanded or forced, that fact should give you a clue as to what the commandment actually means.

I am a man without faith. If I do good works all my life (such as working hard so as to ensure my younger siblings can go to college), why is that considered not important? Why is a demand for believing in this one thing considered so important above all other things? It seems extremely arbitrary to me: I would say the exact same things if the teaching was "Believe Call of Duty games are good and fun games to play".

As for the virgin Mary part...you might want to bring that up with ABC instead. He's the one who introduced that topic and, instead of mentioning the lack of original sin claim, instead doubled down on her supposedly being a virgin. Thus, I ran with it, despite knowing all along what the Immaculate Conception actually was. I was testing him to see if he would do research and correct himself, and also because I wanted to discuss what he believes, not just what the official dogma of the RCC is alone.
What I found out was that he mentioned being a catholic, accepting of RCC teachings, but he had shown himself to be incorrect. This is an extremely dangerous position to be in; I saw a clip today where a comedian is talking to a US lawmaker who claims the ten commandments are the basis for US law, only to fail at listing the actual commandments when pressed on it.

As for the commandment part...it's called a commandment for a reason. It's something that the religion teaches people are commanded to do. It's Number One on the 10 Most Important Rules of the religion. Thus, when I look at it, and then look at the fact that love ought not to be demanded or forced, I have to come to the conclusion that this commandment makes no sense and has no basis in reality.

tommy2bad · 29-11-2014 8:41pm

RikuoAmero wrote: »

I am a man without faith. If I do good works all my life (such as working hard so as to ensure my younger siblings can go to college), why is that considered not important? Why is a demand for believing in this one thing considered so important above all other things? It seems extremely arbitrary to me: I would say the exact same things if the teaching was "Believe Call of Duty games are good and fun games to play".

Are you dising CoD? I bet your one of them heretical Rainbow 6 followers

No again you presume faith is our part in the equation. That's not what it's about. The idea is that no matter how good or bad we are, it's God who grants salvation. We can't buy our way their, nor can we claim our place their.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

As for the virgin Mary part...you might want to bring that up with ABC instead. He's the one who introduced that topic and, instead of mentioning the lack of original sin claim, instead doubled down on her supposedly being a virgin. Thus, I ran with it, despite knowing all along what the Immaculate Conception actually was. I was testing him to see if he would do research and correct himself, and also because I wanted to discuss what he believes, not just what the official dogma of the RCC is alone.
What I found out was that he mentioned being a catholic, accepting of RCC teachings, but he had shown himself to be incorrect. This is an extremely dangerous position to be in; I saw a clip today where a comedian is talking to a US lawmaker who claims the ten commandments are the basis for US law, only to fail at listing the actual commandments when pressed on it.

Yeah the level of catechism is dire, but it's not that big a deal, I doubt their a catechism test at the pearly gates. More like continuous assessment of how we treat our fellow man.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

As for the commandment part...it's called a commandment for a reason. It's something that the religion teaches people are commanded to do. It's Number One on the 10 Most Important Rules of the religion. Thus, when I look at it, and then look at the fact that love ought not to be demanded or forced, I have to come to the conclusion that this commandment makes no sense and has no basis in reality.

Yeah that the point, it turns the commandment on it's head, love over the law. Just think of it as a koan, sound of one hand clapping type of thing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan

RikuoAmero · 29-11-2014 9:01pm

Yeah the level of catechism is dire, but it's not that big a deal, I doubt their a catechism test at the pearly gates. More like continuous assessment of how we treat our fellow man.

If so, then belief that God exists is completely superfluous. I imagine myself dying, not being convinced, surprised to find myself at the pearly gates, and some booming voice going through my life "Let's see now...stood by friends and family through thick and thin...good...worked hard to pay for siblings entry into college and thus hope for a better life...good...gave to charity...good...taught what you knew freely...good" etc.
I can treat my fellow man extremely well and in fact do so just fine without a belief that there is a god. Congratulations, you have just rendered your entire religion completely pointless. I thank you for that. No, I am not being insulting or rude, I am pointing out that you are now only one small step away from accepting my side of the debate.

Just so I'm understanding you correctly - is it your position that loving God and loving your fellow man are linked, one follows from the other?

I also find it remarkable that you mention koans, since doubt is an essential practice for koans, yet quite a few times throughout the bible, it is claimed that God commands against having doubts.

tommy2bad · 30-11-2014 11:49am

RikuoAmero wrote: »

If so, then belief that God exists is completely superfluous. I imagine myself dying, not being convinced, surprised to find myself at the pearly gates, and some booming voice going through my life "Let's see now...stood by friends and family through thick and thin...good...worked hard to pay for siblings entry into college and thus hope for a better life...good...gave to charity...good...taught what you knew freely...good" etc.
I can treat my fellow man extremely well and in fact do so just fine without a belief that there is a god. Congratulations, you have just rendered your entire religion completely pointless. I thank you for that. No, I am not being insulting or rude, I am pointing out that you are now only one small step away from accepting my side of the debate.

The thing is 'by faith alone' also excludes presuming on God, which is what your doing their.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Just so I'm understanding you correctly - is it your position that loving God and loving your fellow man are linked, one follows from the other?

Indeed it dose, in both directions. Not my position btw, that was the position of some wandering Jewish prophet, "Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me. .... "

RikuoAmero wrote: »

I also find it remarkable that you mention koans, since doubt is an essential practice for koans, yet quite a few times throughout the bible, it is claimed that God commands against having doubts.

Annie Lamott — 'The opposite of faith is not doubt, it's certainty.'
“Faith isn't believing without proof – it's trusting without reservation.” William Sloane Coffin ... Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich. Nah, you seem to be fighting strawmen.

ABC101 · 30-11-2014 12:11pm

@ Rik,

No I am not trying to convert you. No I am not expecting you to change.

From time to time you write "Again, I'm somehow expected to believe"

That is not my intention.

All I am offering is an explanation / understanding of Christianity, clarification from my perspective.

The only person who can change your philosophy, outlook, belief system (or lack of).... is you.

"Also...you never actually answered my question. Let me rephrase it: let's pretend you have never heard of christianity. If some woman comes up to you and says "I'm pregnant, from a society with no understanding of biology or technology, but I was a virgin even after the conception", would you believe her?"

Yes I would. It is possible to get pregnant without having sexual intercourse. It is possible for sperm to travel from outside to the inside. I'm not going to get into graphic details, but for pregancy to occur what is required is sperm to meet the egg. Not for a penis to be inside a vagina. If you don't believe me you can ask a doctor, or pick up a book on issues of sexuality.

You mention also a society with no understanding of biology or technology. The Roman world was rather primiative by todays standards.. but they had taxation, rules, laws, civil enforcement of laws, the wheel, the lever, basic metal working, and they even understood how to mix cement. Major advances in cement making did not occur until the 1800's approximately.

In 500 years time.. society then will probably judge the society of today as primitative. But it is all relative. The society we have of the time... is what you have got to work with.

It is akin to judgeing the Ford Model T with a modern 4 wheel drive, 200 bhp, 70mpg, car with airbags and air conditioning as being superior. Which it is... but it is not a fair comparison.

As for your analogy about a car engine - there are people who understand them very well. They're called mechanics. They can demonstrate their knowledge by taking them apart, putting them back together again and having the engine work.

You are correct... but that was not my point. I was making the point of the adaptability of human beings. To use a computer a person does not have to understand the details of how a processor works, registers, wait states, interuppts, serial or parrallel processing etc.

So it is with a belief system.. a believer can practise their belief all their life, even die for their faith (maryters)... even if they do not know / understand everything which is to be known about their faith. For example... my knowledge / understanding of my faith would be less than that of a priest or Bishop... yet despite this difference... we can and do practise our faith.

However, if I talk to a catholic priest in Rome, and then a baptist minister in Texas, I'll be told contradictory things. Both have completely different approaches. Both cannot be true at the same time

There are numerous religions... and in Christianity alone.. there are numerous branches. As Jesus said when asked this question.. "There are many rooms in my fathers house". Jesus also told us that the first and most important law is to love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength.

I will post a link here... which I feel is quiet good.... and may answer / help answer your query.

http://ronconte.wordpress.com/2011/07/10/salvation-for-muslims/

Your point...

Also your car engine analogy exposes one of the major problems I have with religion. Yes, I as the driver of the car don't have to understand the car inside and out in order to use it; I can pay someone else to do that for me. However, your analogy has the implication that people don't have to understand their God belief: just believe it, accept it as true and continue on with their lives.

Yes, I as the driver of the car don't have to understand the car inside and out in order to use it..... I agree with you.

I can pay someone else to do that for me. I agree with you.

However, your analogy has the implication that people don't have to understand their God belief: just believe it, accept it as true and continue on with their lives Not true. I can see the point you are making... but you have misunderstood my previous posts.

What I meant is that believers have a responsibility to deepen their faith, to understand it more, to practise it more in their lives. That is not to say every believer in R.C. should go off and become a Nun or a Priest. But to expand their faith in their daily lives, whether they be a Doctor, Nurse, Civil Servant or Engineer, or whatever professional vocation they are in.

It is akin to a scientist who has a certain level of understanding / knowledge of the field they are in. But because they have that level of knowledge.. they then stop doing further research / studies. What is the point of that???? That action would not make sense.

As in most areas of life... whether it be science, engineering, mental health or religion... not all the answers are known. There are still more things to be discovered, mysteries of nature to be solved. So it is with Religion... it is an evolving process, not a static one. Kind of like a professional development.

Love is not worth anything if it's commanded. Love is either earned or freely given, and should never be demanded. Plus, I can't love something if I'm not convinced if that something exists.

That is why you have free will.... to accept or reject belief in God.

Oops, guess I'm breaking the commandment there, and I somehow deserve punishment.

Not for me to judge you... but writing hypothetically if there is a God... and you reject any and all evidence / belief of him. Then there is a possibility that God will reject you in the spiritual world after death. And again I state ... not for me to judge you.

Please, in the future, when you make assertions like this, PLEASE give your justifications beyond "Jesus says". That means nothing to me, will not work on me, because I am not yet convinced I should pay attention to anything Jesus says

Again I have to say..... I am NOT trying to convince you to believe. All I am offering is clarifications about belief to you, so that you understand the position of believers better.

Think of the analogy of a member of the public who walks into a car showroom. The car salesman and the visitor have a discussion about the technical aspects / design and colour of the new car. But at no point does the car salesman offer to sell the car to the visitor. It is just a disscussion about the product... not a offer of sale.

So it is with our conversation.... I am attempting to explain Christianity to you... not asking for you to start believing.

Again... when you go to a doctor about a health issue... it is just for a discussion about the issue (whatever it is). The doctor does not try and get you to enrol in medical school.

Asking a Christian to explain or offer explantions about their belief system and not mention Jesus Christ... is like asking a scientist to explain a certain law of physics... but with out using any references to any laws of physics.

Safehands · 30-11-2014 3:40pm

ABC101 wrote: »

Medical science cannot replace the limb or eye. But the person prays to God / goes to Chruch and when they wake up the next day..... Voila..... a new eye / limb is there and it is functioning perfectly.

That would be the evidence I was referring to in the post above. In that way.... everybody could gather around....and there would be evidence that a miraculous event occured. There would be no doubt that there is a divine being at work. Now imagine this occuring 200 times a year in Ireland... and then scale up for countries with greater populations etc.

Imagine the affect on Mankind if even once, a truly miraculous event such as you describe, actually happened. If there was no doubt that this was a supernatural event which could be verified. I can think of NO negative consequences if non believers suddenly realised that the Christian beliefs had been authenticated.

If sin, evil or bad deeds upset God, then his proving, without doubt, that he exists would have the inevitable consequence of a massive reduction in "sin" being committed.

The atheists posting on this website are very intelligent people. I am quite confident that if God were to prove his existence most of them would no longer be atheists.
God, as you describe him, would surely be a lot happier if everyone believed in him. We live in a world of mass communication. If he really wants us to believe in him it would be a lot easier for him to reveal himself to us now, than it was 2000 years ago.
If Our Lady wants to get her message across to millions, she could just appear on every TV station in the world and tell us what she wants, not just appear on some remote mountain with vague messages given to inevitably illiterate children. Imagine the affect on the human race, if the world cup final was suddenly interrupted with a message from God, in every language on Earth.

I think if we all knew for certain that he was real, we would have a much better world, with more caring, much more sharing and a lot less fighting and killing.

ABC101 · 30-11-2014 4:57pm

Imagine the affect on Mankind if even once, a truly miraculous event such as you describe, actually happened. If there was no doubt that this was a supernatural event which could be verified. I can think of NO negative consequences if non believers suddenly realised that the Christian beliefs had been authenticated.

Several miracles which cannot be explained by medical science have occurred in Lourdes since 1858. Link here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_Medical_Bureau

Lourdes being just one example.

If sin, evil or bad deeds upset God, then his proving, without doubt, that he exists would have the inevitable consequence of a massive reduction in "sin" being committed.

Yes most probably...but that does not appear to be God's plan.. otherwise he would have revealed himself fully a long time ago.

The atheists posting on this website are very intelligent people. I am quite confident that if God were to prove his existence most of them would no longer be atheists.

No guarantee... but you are probably correct that a lot of them would convert to some religious belief. Remember even in the time of Jesus... when various miracles where performed.... there were those who still did not believe, in fact he was betrayed by Judas, numerous others questioned Jesus, tried to test him with trick questions etc... and even though Jesus gave an answer... they still went off arguing and squabbling among themselves, some people suffer from ODD... they are not actually interested in arguging for a reason... they just want to argue for no reason at all.

If God showed up on Earth right now.... and proved himself with out a shadow of a doubt that he exists. In 1000 years time people could be saying... well the human race in 2014 was very primitative... they must have been drunk... yes drugs where common in those times etc. Future generations would find some reason to discount the witness statements of 2014.

God, as you describe him, would surely be a lot happier if everyone believed in him. We live in a world of mass communication. If he really wants us to believe in him it would be a lot easier for him to reveal himself to us now, than it was 2000 years ago.

If Our Lady wants to get her message across to millions, she could just appear on every TV station in the world and tell us what she wants, not just appear on some remote mountain with vague messages given to inevitably illiterate children. Imagine the affect on the human race, if the world cup final was suddenly interrupted with a message from God, in every language on Earth.

I'll take these two together... God is capable of bi location, being in multiple places at the same physical time. So is our Lady. They would not require TV or internet to reach the masses. Our Lady or Jesus could stand next to each person on Earth at exactly the same time and carry out a conversation with every human on Earth.

Sounds impossible.... sounds totally ridiculous... sounds crazy. By physical earthly standards which you and I have to obey... it would be impossible for us.

However in the spiritual world... Time does not exist, it has no meaning.

I think if we all knew for certain that he was real, we would have a much better world, with more caring, much more sharing and a lot less fighting and killing.

Yes I would agree with you there!!

However it would appear that is not in God's plan. God wants people to find him... that is why each person has a conscience and a Guardian Angel.

I suppose if I used the analogy of....

A very good, fair, and well paying employer. But he wants sincere employees... who are true to his business / company, NOT because he is a good payer... but because he wants to reward employees who genuinely love their boss.

Something akin to a spouse... who loves you for who you actually are... who loves you whether you are poor or stinking filthy rich. (I do like that term:pac:)

There are people out there... who will dump their spouse when the money runs out, or the marriage enters into hard times.

In short there are people... who are genuine... they are sincere... and then there are those who are selfish... just in it for themselves... and when it suits they will dump you.

God does not want these people.... even though he knows what is in your heart... he wants each and every one of us to follow him through our own efforts, through our own decisions. God sets the guidelines by sending the prophets, Jesus Christ, Virgin Mary, various Saints etc etc... and still allows Humans to exercise their own free will.... to accept or reject.

RikuoAmero · 30-11-2014 6:25pm

tommy2bad wrote:

The thing is 'by faith alone' also excludes presuming on God, which is what your doing their.

Explain this please?

Indeed it dose, in both directions. Not my position btw, that was the position of some wandering Jewish prophet, "Whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me. .... "

Then I have to disagree with you. If loving God somehow allows one to love their fellow human, then this would logically mean that someone like me who isn't convinced of God's existence (and therefore doesn't love him) would be unable to love their fellow human. However, I do. There are quite a few people I love. To me, what you're espousing is as silly as saying "Loving this action figure is linked to loving your fellow humans: if you love one, you automatically love the other"

Annie Lamott — 'The opposite of faith is not doubt, it's certainty.'

I disagree. Faith is a belief without evidence or justification. I would say that it's opposite is a justified true belief a.k.a. knowledge.

“Faith isn't believing without proof – it's trusting without reservation.” William Sloane Coffin ... Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. --Paul Tillich. Nah, you seem to be fighting strawmen.

Then I direct you to the following passages in the bible where God commands against doubt.

James 1: 5-8
If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. 6 But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7, 8 for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

Matthew 21:21
"Jesus answered them, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only will you do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, ‘Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,’ it will be done."

Mark 11:23
Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and thrown into the sea,’ and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you.

Romans 14:23
But those who have doubts are condemned if they eat, because they do not act from faith;for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

No I am not trying to convert you. No I am not expecting you to change.

From time to time you write "Again, I'm somehow expected to believe"

That is not my intention.

All I am offering is an explanation / understanding of Christianity, clarification from my perspective.

Fair enough, but this is the existence of God debates thread. Simply repeating what it is your religion teaches is not enough - I might as well be back in religious studies class in school, where (laughingly enough) I had a catholic priest teach me islam, buddhism and catholicism (methinks there's a conflict of interest there - his job and religion require him to teach the 'good news' and this can't be accomplished if his students learn about other religions and are interested in converting).
If all you're going to do is basically tell me what christianity teaches, instead of justifications for those teachings, then I'm not interested.

Yes I would. It is possible to get pregnant without having sexual intercourse. It is possible for sperm to travel from outside to the inside. I'm not going to get into graphic details, but for pregancy to occur what is required is sperm to meet the egg. Not for a penis to be inside a vagina. If you don't believe me you can ask a doctor, or pick up a book on issues of sexuality.

I concede the point...kinda. I found this link http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/975.aspx?CategoryID=54 which explains it.
However, that link and what you've just said are in regards to sperm coming into contact with an egg. Remember, this is NOT what is claimed in christianity. You yourself said in an earlier post that it was the holy spirit who got Mary pregnant, and the H.S. lacked sexual genitalia.

Given that Jesus is described as a man, this means he would have had X and Y chromosomes. The Y chromosome can only be obtained via the sperm ejaculated by the father. If there is no sperm, and hence no father, where did the Y chromosome come from?
Of course. The magical ghost. Silly me. I forgot that when there are clear contradictions of what is known in science, you can just handwave them away by saying "The wiz...God did it"

That is why you have free will.... to accept or reject belief in God.

I actually disagree with you. To believe something is to be convinced of it, and people can be convinced for good or bad reasons. You believe your religion because you are convinced it is true. To be convinced of something is to accept something as true, and as far as I am able to determine, this is something that is involuntary.
e.g. if I see a HD video recording, hear a microphone recording, see the DNA, blood and have a confession from the accused that they did the crime, I physically cannot then somehow choose a non-belief that they are guilty. All the evidence sorta overwhelms me (for lack of a better word) and forces me to accept he is guilty.
I will admit though that there is a flaw there in what I just said, in that you could have a detective who says "The evidence is flawed/fake/planted, the accused is saying he's guilty for some other reason". I will have to get back to you on this.

The car salesman and the visitor have a discussion about the technical aspects / design and colour of the new car. But at no point does the car salesman offer to sell the car to the visitor. It is just a disscussion about the product... not a offer of sale.

I will say what you are probably expecting me to say, in that the car salesman in that scenario is clearly not doing his job, in not attempting a sale.

Several miracles which cannot be explained by medical science have occurred in Lourdes since 1858

This is a God of the Gaps fallacy. Our collective knowledge and understanding of medicine is not complete. Simply saying at one point in time "There's a medical mystery here, we can't explain it through medicinal science as of yet, therefore we're going to declare the answer to this mystery to be GOD!" is a fallacious argument.
For one such debunking, here's an Independent article from 1995
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science-debunks-miracle-of-weeping-madonna-1590530.html
The RCC had previously declared this weeping statue to be a miracle, only for someone to later come along and show through science that it was not, that it could be replicated by man.
Question - if Lourdes really is a source of miraculous healing, does the RCC advise all those who are sick to visit and get healed (much like everywhere else, if you're sick, you're told to go to the doctor/hospital)? If the RCC doesn't advise or recommend Lourdes, why not?

Safehands · 30-11-2014 6:45pm

ABC101 wrote: »

If God showed up on Earth right now.... and proved himself with out a shadow of a doubt that he exists. In 1000 years time people could be saying... well the human race in 2014 was very primitative... they must have been drunk... yes drugs where common in those times etc. Future generations would find some reason to discount the witness statements of 2014.

Absolutely not! You are making a comparison with the time when Jesus walked the earth. First of all, although these "miracles" are written about, we have no way of knowing if they actually happened as described. My own father talks of seeing ghosts in fields, or hearing "banshees". The introduction of electricity and modern lighting has all but done away with those phenomena. That was only 60 years ago.
Events which happen today are much more accurately recorded. So you are just speculating about what would be said in 1000 years time. Man went to the moon in 1969. That will be talked about in 3014. It may be viewed as a primitive effort, (although I seriously doubt it), but there will be no doubt that it happened. So if God was to make himself known to the masses today, there is no doubt that it would be viewed in 3014 or 4014 as an amazing authentic event which changed the course of history.

ABC101 · 30-11-2014 7:15pm

Safehands wrote: »

Absolutely not! You are making a comparison with the time when Jesus walked the earth. First of all, although these "miracles" are written about, we have no way of knowing if they actually happened as described. My own father talks of seeing ghosts in fields, or hearing "banshees". The introduction of electricity and modern lighting has all but done away with those phenomena. That was only 60 years ago.
Events which happen today are much more accurately recorded. So you are just speculating about what would be said in 1000 years time. Man went to the moon in 1969. That will be talked about in 3014. It may be viewed as a primitive effort, (although I seriously doubt it), but there will be no doubt that it happened. So if God was to make himself known to the masses today, there is no doubt that it would be viewed in 3014 or 4014 as an amazing authentic event which changed the course of history.

You may well be correct!!

However look how easily things can go wrong, where truth gets distorted.

The invasion of Iraq justified by the suspicion of WMD. Of course this WMD was a red herring.

2001... 911... the twin towers and the planes that flew into them.

There are people who believe it was a state conspiracy!! There are even films made about it. THere is speculation that there was explosives used in the towers to make them come down.

I personally don't believe it.... but I have met people who do believe it!!!

Remember also... modern recording devices do not last forever. Interfaces for Hard Drives in computers have changed. Then you have the issue of proving providence. Is this digital recording real or fake, is it CGI??

The Ian Bailey case in Sth Cork.... where it transpired that digital recordings were made of phone calls.

It has been admitted... that a lot of these hard discs are very old... they are legacy devices... and there was a concern that some of the discs are so old that the data may be completely lost, or the interface may be so old that hard ware does not exist anymore to hook the HD up. Computer standards change so rapidly. Even if you have the hardware working... you may not have the software to read it correctly... your Operating System may not recognise it!!

Look at the internet... how much has that changed? I was reading recently where people were trying to get an image of what the very first version of the internet looked like. It is very very hard...because the www has been added to, code deleted, modified, replaced THOUSANDS of times over and over.

I think Comact Discs have a life span of 100 years (not sure but I am open to correction).

Look at other recording mediums... VHS, Betamax, film cameras, even magnetic tape has a tendency to bleed. Then there is the elements, humidity, bacteria, mold etc etc etc.

Even if you did manage to have a medium which could hold data for 1000 years... how would you ensure it is authentic, genuine in 1000 years time? You would have to verify / prove it's providence somehow.

The examples I have given above... are not my speculation... they are facts.

Recording data now ... for future use... lets say 1000 years time... well I'm not sure how you would do it...but I do not think it is as easy as one would like to think.

RikuoAmero · 30-11-2014 7:21pm

ABC, just to let you know, there are M-Discs
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Systor-Write-Forever-M-DISC-Blank/dp/B006GC0R90/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1417371569&sr=8-1&keywords=M+disc

Supposedly able to last for a thousand years.

Now, I do have to ask...why are you so concerned about data storage and listing all the problems we have with it, if God were to show up and be captured on video? Surely your god can just wave the problem away?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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