Is the dole too generous?

thebman · 28-01-2009 1:35pm

There are always jobs, unfortunately not all of them pay.

I'm sure people will let you clean their drive ways for free if you want to work :P

I really think its time, we had a voluntary work for your dole system where people that wanted to show they were interested in working could work a few hours voluntarily as something to put on their CV.

This could be voluntary work in their area of expertise to keep their skills up or just community work to keep streets clean.

This would reduce the work load on people like street cleaners who can't possibly keep up with the amount of litter being dropped etc... and make those people feel like they've earned their dole money (not that they have if they paid taxes but it will help with self-esteem).

For people doing volunteer work in the areas they have expertise in, employers could use this (say a max of 1 or 3 hours a day or something so they don't just use free labour with a max number of volunteer workers per organisation based on number employed in that organisation) to reduce work load on over worked people in their department if they have had to let people go to make ends meet. Employers could be expected to pay travel and lunch expenses for the volunteers in exchange for the volunteer work. Then if over time, this person proves to be a good worker and conditions improve, the employer could take the volunteer on as a full time member of staff.

There are probably some problems in the above as its off the top of my head but what do people think of the general idea?

RedPlanet · 28-01-2009 1:41pm

I don't like it.
There's way too much room for abuse.
It's also anti-competitive, as one employer in a particular industry gets an unfair advantage over his rivals by taking on more workers that he doesn't have to pay.
I'm sure the construction industry bosses would love to get their hands on something like that, with FF in their back pockets...

RedPlanet · 28-01-2009 1:47pm

If you're really concerned about long term dole-ees not looking for work. Then a little bit of scrutiny and pro-active measures on the part of the Dept of Social Welfare would sort it out.
Maybe, have a person sign-on at the dole office once a month.
Perform an interview to determine if they've applied for any jobs, can they prove it?
If not, pickup the paper then and there and ring up one of the ads.
Just a little bit of scrutiny and pro-active work on the part of the Dept would probably see a good number of people back to work.
If of course, there actually are people that don't want jobs.

thebman · 28-01-2009 2:30pm

I'm not worried that there are people that don't want to work.

I'm worried there are people who do want to work who will get frustrated at not being able to find jobs, will see their confidence and self-esteem drop as they need "hand outs" and that their skill levels will be seen as dropped by potential employers who see that they have not been working for a while and so they will inevitably be at a disadvantage over someone that is simply moving jobs.

doncarlos · 28-01-2009 2:30pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

Oh i don't think so.
Take for example the thousands of people in the Limerick area that are now, or will be soon, completely out of work.
There aren't that many vacant positions in shops and Supermacs.
I know I haven't seen a "Staff Wanted" sign for about a year.

I think citing the Limerick case is an extreme example as it will be a large number of people from the same area becoming unemployed simultaneously rather than a stream that could be soaked up with lower paid jobs.
There are lots of vacant positions in shops and supermacs, these places are crying out for Irish people as lets face it when it comes to customer relations Irish people prefer dealing with Irish people. I've spoken to bar managers who refuse to higher foreign staff for bar work as feel their customers would rather Irish staff.
I know people that have lost jobs over the past few months who although are looking for jobs wouldn't dream of working in a shop/bar/fast food restaurant.

ChocolateSauce · 28-01-2009 2:40pm

I think it isn't so much about the amount, but about what it is spent on. Because it is paid in cash, it can be wasted on mind-altering substances (something I've witnessed first hand) and other non-essentials. I think an Italian-inspired system, whereby the dole is given on a credit card, is needed. This way the government can monitor how people spend public funds and ensure it is only spent on necessities.

doncarlos · 28-01-2009 3:02pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think it isn't so much about the amount, but about what it is spent on. Because it is paid in cash, it can be wasted on mind-altering substances (something I've witnessed first hand) and other non-essentials. I think an Italian-inspired system, whereby the dole is given on a credit card, is needed. This way the government can monitor how people spend public funds and ensure it is only spent on necessities.

Although in theory this is an excellent idea do you really trust our government to set up a system like this after the PPARS, E-Voting, Pulse fiascos.

RedPlanet · 28-01-2009 3:02pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I think it isn't so much about the amount, but about what it is spent on. Because it is paid in cash, it can be wasted on mind-altering substances (something I've witnessed first hand) and other non-essentials. I think an Italian-inspired system, whereby the dole is given on a credit card, is needed. This way the government can monitor how people spend public funds and ensure it is only spent on necessities.

I think that's a neat idea. I would hope the system would allow for people to spend their dole on essentials in Northern Ireland however, since the retailers in the Republic are not offering competitive prices.
I'm sure a minority of dole-ees spend some of their money on illegal things, however I'll bet more of them spend it on booze.
I also suspect if you tracked the money of your average person on the dole, you'd find it's all spent within a 10 mile radius.
Minus ESB, Gas and heating oil of course.
It's basically your tax euros filtering thru their hands and into the locality.
Your average person on the dole doesn't take foreign holidays nor do they have large savings.

Mena · 28-01-2009 3:06pm

Good idea but I can already see an industry opening up to abuse it, by selling "non-essential" items to the card holder but providing faked invoices/receipts etc.

thebman · 28-01-2009 4:22pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

I don't like it.
There's way too much room for abuse.
It's also anti-competitive, as one employer in a particular industry gets an unfair advantage over his rivals by taking on more workers that he doesn't have to pay.
I'm sure the construction industry bosses would love to get their hands on something like that, with FF in their back pockets...

You could always just have this scheme as public sector only and in administrative areas in most cases or areas like street cleaning where competition isn't an issue.

As it is on a volunteer basis, if people think they are being screwed they can walk away.

RedPlanet · 28-01-2009 4:59pm

thebman wrote: »

You could always just have this scheme as public sector only and in administrative areas in most cases or areas like street cleaning where competition isn't an issue.

As it is on a volunteer basis, if people think they are being screwed they can walk away.

I'd hazard a guess that street cleaning isn't a service the local council will be supplying in the near future. Rather it will be privatized and they'll introduce "competition" into "the market" by contracting 1 or 2 companies to do it at a "reduced cost" to the tax payer.

thebman · 28-01-2009 5:13pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that street cleaning isn't a service the local council will be supplying in the near future. Rather it will be privatized and they'll introduce "competition" into "the market" by contracting 1 or 2 companies to do it at a "reduced cost" to the tax payer.

Couldn't be any worse than the current street cleaners in Maynooth TBH.

Would it kill them to clean up leaves as well as trash?

Or to empty the bins before they over flow! :mad:

Anyway, those were examples, I'm sure there are lots of tasks people could do. Those were just the most obvious ones.

Priscilla Duck · 28-01-2009 11:17pm

thebman wrote: »

There are always jobs, unfortunately not all of them pay.

I'm sure people will let you clean their drive ways for free if you want to work :P

I really think its time, we had a voluntary work for your dole system where people that wanted to show they were interested in working could work a few hours voluntarily as something to put on their CV.

This could be voluntary work in their area of expertise to keep their skills up or just community work to keep streets clean.

How very patronising. I've been working without a break since I left school 15 years ago, and have constantly updated my skills including postgraduate evening study. I have slowly moved from manual to high-skilled jobs until recently when the project I was working on had its funding cut by Board Snip. I also work as a volunteer in two community groups, although I have been warned by the dole office to give this up as it could be seen as interfering with my ability to gain fulltime employment. My CV is quite full, and certainly will not be augmented by street-cleaning or similar work. I do not want to be unemployed, and am quite willing to take on work outside of my current career path, but unfortunately shops, takeaways etc do not want to take on a 30-something with a Masters as they (quite rightly) believe that I will leave at the first opportunity of more relevant work. I can live on the dole as my lifestyle is normally quite simple (I don't smoke and rarely drink). My chief worry is that my decrepit 10-year old car will break down, as I will not be able to afford to fix it, and then I will have no transport as I live in an unserviced rural area. This would limit my ability to attend interviews, as it is virtually impossible to get to the nearest town with transport links without a car. As for the dole being too much, when I do my grocery shopping, things like meat and cheese are luxuries. People with families who live on welfare are not any different - mothers end up policing the fridge to make sure there is enough food left in it to feed the family until the next dole cheque. People who don't understand how hard it can be have obviously never been in that cycle of poverty that can come about through unemployment, ill health or simple bad luck.

Priscilla Duck · 28-01-2009 11:28pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm sure a minority of dole-ees spend some of their money on illegal things, however I'll bet more of them spend it on booze.

Talk about demonizing the unemployed! Do you think those of us unfortunate enough to have lost our jobs are all sitting on our @rses getting out of our heads on cheap cider and blow? ffs, I was working and considered a person of value 2 months ago. You are suggesting that I lost my values and respectability along with my job and am now a tracksuit-wearing, booze-swilling couch-dweller. My time as a 'dole-scrounger' has been spent searching the internet and newspapers for jobs, meeting with the local jobs club, catching up with old friends and contacts who might be able to help me find work, doing jobs for free in the hope of getting more work out of it, writing and rewriting my CV, cold-calling companies and going on training courses. These were paid for out of my own pocket - 4 more months until FAS will help. I, and most other dole recipients, have much more important things to spend my money on than booze.

solas · 28-01-2009 11:38pm

hope i dont get shot for it but 180 would suffice for me and daughter, currently receiving 230 LPA and have been receiving for over a year now. will admit that I don't drink or socialize and get a new pair of shoes once a year, receive gifts of clothes at Christmas and bday, shop at lidle, don't own a car etc.. (which sometimes makes it difficult to get work) but I'd rather be working and contributing to society than being on the receiving end of it. It is too much for doing nothing, the dole should keep people alive not provide for a lifestyle.

solas · 28-01-2009 11:46pm

thebman wrote: »

There are always jobs, unfortunately not all of them pay.

I'm sure people will let you clean their drive ways for free if you want to work :P

I really think its time, we had a voluntary work for your dole system where people that wanted to show they were interested in working could work a few hours voluntarily as something to put on their CV.

This could be voluntary work in their area of expertise to keep their skills up or just community work to keep streets clean.

This would reduce the work load on people like street cleaners who can't possibly keep up with the amount of litter being dropped etc... and make those people feel like they've earned their dole money (not that they have if they paid taxes but it will help with self-esteem).

For people doing volunteer work in the areas they have expertise in, employers could use this (say a max of 1 or 3 hours a day or something so they don't just use free labour with a max number of volunteer workers per organisation based on number employed in that organisation) to reduce work load on over worked people in their department if they have had to let people go to make ends meet. Employers could be expected to pay travel and lunch expenses for the volunteers in exchange for the volunteer work. Then if over time, this person proves to be a good worker and conditions improve, the employer could take the volunteer on as a full time member of staff.

There are probably some problems in the above as its off the top of my head but what do people think of the general idea?

I agree, a lot of people on the dole do actually want to work, even if it just means keeping your hands (and head ) busy. I applied for two positions of voluntary work but there doesn't seem to be enough of it around to warrant applying. I think it would be good for the long term unemployed, especially those wiling to work to contribute in some way to society and gain experience at the same time, if it was provided a lot of people would willingly accept the opportunity.

Priscilla Duck · 28-01-2009 11:48pm

Well, I know I couldn't afford to live on any less (I get 204). I have to run my car or I'll be stuck here in the bog and to tell you the truth, turf-cuttin' don't pay like it used to. I too shop at Aldi & Lidl. I haven't had a haircut for 6 months. I clothes-share with an aunt & a cousin. Even my dogs are on a diet, and I'd hate to think what'd happen if one of them got sick.

Permabear · 29-01-2009 3:29am

This post has been deleted.

ChocolateSauce · 29-01-2009 11:23am

doncarlos wrote: »

Although in theory this is an excellent idea do you really trust our government to set up a system like this after the PPARS, E-Voting, Pulse fiascos.

Well that's a whole other issue, really. It's fashionable to blame the government for everything, but I think all Irish political parties are second-rate and unprofessional. I also think the current crisis cannot be blamed on the Irish. Many other countries with far more capable governments, from left to right, are suffering too.

I think that's a neat idea. I would hope the system would allow for people to spend their dole on essentials in Northern Ireland however, since the retailers in the Republic are not offering competitive prices.

Although I'm by no means an economic nationalist I think it should be kept within the state. I'm not going to say it isn't their money (all but the long term unemployed have contributed to the dole), but if they're not paying taxes they should at least support the republic's economy. As you say though, it's mostly probably spent close to their homes, so this would only be an issue for people near the boarder and might be more trouble enforcing than it's worth.

Mena wrote:

Good idea but I can already see an industry opening up to abuse it, by selling "non-essential" items to the card holder but providing faked invoices/receipts etc.

Such a thing could be partially counteracted by touph fines for offenders, but it probably would never be absent.

Priscilla Duck · 01-02-2009 10:29pm

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I've never been one of those 'government is evil' people, and I have no problem paying taxes once I DO start earning, but certainly the classification of clothing and basic food commodities as luxuries is unfair to the poor. I'd prefer to see income tax levels raised by 5% across the board and see the old low rate of 10% for low-income jobs brought back in rather than have VAT rise and see stupid charges like the parking space tax introduced. When I worked abroad I received less than 50% of my salary in my pocket after taxes, pension, mandatory health insurance and social insurance, but VAT was much lower on everyday essentials (even beer was taxed as a foodstuff) and I had higher standard of living taking home about half of what I did in my last job here in Ireland. And the trains ran on time, the health services worked and there was a high degree of trust in the government, despite rising unemployment levels and the same social problems we face here. I'm not entirely sure what the difference was, but it certainly was related to acceptance by the general populace that you only get the type of services you pay for, and to performance-related contracts in the civil service ensuring a more transparent and efficient administration of public funds than what we have here.

professore · 01-02-2009 10:37pm

Priscilla Duck wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what the difference was, but it certainly was related to acceptance by the general populace that you only get the type of services you pay for, and to performance-related contracts in the civil service ensuring a more transparent and efficient administration of public funds than what we have here.

The difference is that there is a social contract in most European countries, where people think it's normal to pay a higher level of tax in return for proper public transport, education, infrastructure and healthcare. The basics of life are affordable for everyone. We follow the Anglo-Saxon model of paying as little as possible, allowing a few to get really wealthy and most to struggle through life, even those working their asses off.

deleriumtremens · 01-02-2009 10:45pm

There are no jobs out there that make it worth a persons while working so anybody who says "if you want more money just get a job" really does have their head in the clouds. If you get the sack now, you're on the scrapheap with the rest of the newly unemployed, all competing for fewer, less desirable jobs that dont even let you make ends meet.

Oh yes...this is what life in Ireland was meant to be like.

bonkey · 01-02-2009 11:06pm

deleriumtremens wrote: »

There are no jobs out there that make it worth a persons while working so anybody who says "if you want more money just get a job" really does have their head in the clouds

Sure...because when the sweet jobs come around, and the employers have to choose between someone who got off their arse and got some experience, and someone else who said "screw that, its not worth it", they'll go for the latter.

Even if the entry-level job isn't worth it in and of itself, its pretty-much the only way to get to the non-entry-level job which is worth it.

ateam · 02-02-2009 1:26am

The double Xmas bonus given to dole recipients is a farce.

rizzla · 02-02-2009 8:53am

ateam wrote: »

The double Xmas bonus given to dole recipients is a farce.

It's not a bonus. They get 2 weeks dole before xmas and no dole the following week.

minxie · 02-02-2009 9:01am

rizzla wrote: »

It's not a bonus. They get 2 weeks dole before xmas and no dole the following week.

actually they do get an extra week at christmas!!! think if
i can remember its either the first or second week in dec its
paid out...then a double week to cover the two weeks
of christmas

Priscilla Duck · 03-02-2009 11:09pm

ateam wrote: »

The double Xmas bonus given to dole recipients is a farce.

Have you had to pay Santa Claus lately? The (one) extra payment is to cover the costs of Christmas and is essential if you have kids, as it's practically impossible to save much of the dole for that purpose. One setback - like a broken water heater or a leaky roof - can set you back months if you're in a low income job or on the dole.

HollyB · 04-02-2009 12:29am

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think that the dole structure needs to change. For the initial payments, I'd actually be inclined to increase the weekly payment. We're going to see a lot more people, some of whom previously held steady, well-paying jobs and who are eager to get back to work, join the live register in the near future. For newcomers, I'd start the payments at €250 a week. After 6 months, the payment would decrease to €200 a week. After another 6 months it would be down to €100 a week. In the five years from the date of a person's first dole payment, they would be entitled to claim the top rate for 26 weeks, and the second rate for 26 weeks, even if they are employed for a period between claims.

In terms of seeing to it that people are genuinely seeking work, I think that those investigating it should keep apprised of any employers advertising in a particular area. For example, if they know that Dunnes, McDonald's and Tesco were all seeking staff over the past month, if an applicant isn't bringing them proof that they applied at any of them, they should ask why.

For the long-term unemployed, I think their dole payments should be halved immediately and there should also be a limit on how long they can avail of rent allowance/social housing if they are unwilling to seek employment. This country is not in a position where it can afford to be supporting the "welfare nobility" ad infinitum.

Soldie · 04-02-2009 1:26am

HollyB wrote: »

We're going to see a lot more people, some of whom previously held steady, well-paying jobs and who are eager to get back to work, join the live register in the near future. For newcomers, I'd start the payments at €250 a week.

How exactly is this justified? Where is that money going to come from - particularly at a time when we're exceptionally short of it? Are you suggesting that they should be 'eased' into the dole as a result of being used to earning higher wages?

It's worth thinking about what exactly the dole is, and what function it should serve. To me, the dole should be a stop-gap measure to help people get by while they're between jobs. The italicised words are worth thinking about - getting by should entail the nessecities of human life; food, hygiene, electricity, etc - but no more. Now, it's clearly evident that our setup goes beyond this in providing a very generous dole that is over three times higher than in neighbouring Northern Ireland. So generous is it, in fact, that it ends up being a disincentive to work for a number of people - 'career dolers', as they're colloquially known.

The catch-22 is that reducing the dole would be so unpopular that it'd practically be political suicide.

AlekSmart · 04-02-2009 2:41am

Have you had to pay Santa Claus lately? The (one) extra payment is to cover the costs of Christmas and is essential if you have kids, as it's practically impossible to save much of the dole for that purpose.

Well I suppose just like generations of parents from a bygone era did,a new generation of mummys and daddys may have to get familiar with mixing,matching and modifying when it comes to playing Santy as so elequently described by Priscilla Duck.

As it stands,there is no room for that "Christmas Bonus" in any of the SW benefits.

It is also abundantly clear that the entire concept of "having kids" whilst not having the wherewithal to fund their upbringing may yet have to be revisited.

I listened to an RTE Radio 1 news report earlier this week on the Traveller Eviction in Waterford and one throwaway remerk by the Woman at the centre of the case caught my earlobe...The Lady spoke of the humiliation of having to go to her mother-in-laws house to use the facilities,which was an imposition on the mother in law who had 16 of her own childer to look after.

Methinks that the fallout from the Fianna Fail decades is only just beginning to fall to earth and BOY is it going to change how we think !!!!!

Is the dole too generous?

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