Formula E

01-12-2015 4:28pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I want to see Turn 10 enter M. Rossi. :pac:

I'll be hoping he gets punted off in turn 1 every time.

antodeco · 01-12-2015 11:02pm

It will be interesting to see what happens with Roborace. At the end of the day, I'm an advocate for any Motorsport!

Going Strong · 02-12-2015 11:37am

I like the idea of a crowd-sourced team as well - the chance for someone unknown to come up with a better solution than all the established teams. Something F1 eradicated years ago.

El_Duderino 09 · 02-12-2015 2:03pm

Going Strong wrote:

I like the idea of a crowd-sourced team as well - the chance for someone unknown to come up with a better solution than all the established teams. Something F1 eradicated years ago.

This is the future. I'm an F1 fan who's slowly moving towards FE. F1 used to be great when it was unashamedly pushing the technological boundaries. Now it's trying to become a leader again but fans are whinging because the engines aren't loud enough. Cringe

Driverless cars and crowd sourcing are the future. I find it difficult to see how I'd get excited about it though. Why bother to watch a race when you could just read about it in the technology section of a news site.

I suspect that I'll support the crowd sourced team.

Uno my Uno. · 02-12-2015 4:03pm

I doubt robo race will be much more than a short lived experiment like the solar powered endurance races of the 90s that garnered lots of column inches in business and technology sections, some funding and little actual interest, although admittedly they weren't intended to be spectator events.

Without strong personalities to draw people in spectator interest will be limited. Even if the racing is spectacular, which I doubt, what is there to care about? Might as well be watching people race on gran tourismo or Forza 5.

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 4:14pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I doubt robo race will be much more than a short lived experiment like the solar powered endurance races of the 90s that garnered lots of column inches in business and technology sections, some funding and little actual interest, although admittedly they weren't intended to be spectator events.

Without strong personalities to draw people in spectator interest will be limited.

I wouldn't agree.

AI can have it's own personality, and what if the likes of Mercedes can say the AI in your car is based in their racing AI? It would give people a vested interest in the racing if they feel like it's their cars big brother racing on the tele.

I think AI racing could be very exciting, at first anyhow. The speeds we could allow them to do would be incredible and far beyond anything any car does now. Then you'll have spectacular accidents, which everyone wants to see, but can't say so because they don't want to look like they take pleasure from people getting hurt.

Uno my Uno. · 02-12-2015 5:14pm

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't agree.

AI can have it's own personality, and what if the likes of Mercedes can say the AI in your car is based in their racing AI? It would give people a vested interest in the racing if they feel like it's their cars big brother racing on the tele.

I think AI racing could be very exciting, at first anyhow. The speeds we could allow them to do would be incredible and far beyond anything any car does now. Then you'll have spectacular accidents, which everyone wants to see, but can't say so because they don't want to look like they take pleasure from people getting hurt.

If these cars go any faster then Formula E within the next 10 years I'll eat my hat. Obviously everything has to start somehere but we aren't going to see the likes of Mercedes, GM or Toyota getting involved nor will we see high speed high risk racing much as I would enjoy it.

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 5:59pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

If these cars go any faster then Formula E within the next 10 years I'll eat my hat. Obviously everything has to start somehere but we aren't going to see the likes of Mercedes, GM or Toyota getting involved nor will we see high speed high risk racing much as I would enjoy it.

The only reason F1 cars, or any race car really, doesn't go faster is safety concerns for the driver. Everyone's afraid that if anything breaks while an F1 car is going around a corner at full chat, that car is going to go straight off the track at speed and kill the driver.

Human reactions are actually quite slow, it takes us about half a second to process information. That's why the human brain has been called a prediction machine, you're not actually reacting as much as you're predicting how much input you need at any particular time.

An AI controlled car could have all the wizardry available to race engineers and the ability to control it all. AI would be operating at thousands of a second, not tenths like we do. So it could be a race series with very few regulations.

You probably are right that at the start they will be relatively slow, but I could see that changing very fast.

El_Duderino 09 · 02-12-2015 6:12pm

ScumLord wrote:

I think AI racing could be very exciting, at first anyhow. The speeds we could allow them to do would be incredible and far beyond anything any car does now. Then you'll have spectacular accidents, which everyone wants to see, but can't say so because they don't want to look like they take pleasure from people getting hurt.

This could come in time but the cars are limited by battery power at the moment and they are racing on street tracks. Streets limit the straights and run off areas so I doubt massive speeds will be their strength.

I fear that the formula will live or die based on the excitement of its first couple of seasons rather than the technology's real life application in road cars.

ScumLord · 02-12-2015 6:25pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

This could come in time but the cars are limited by battery power at the moment and they are racing on street tracks. Streets limit the straights and run off areas so I doubt massive speeds will be their strength.

I fear that the formula will live or die based on the excitement of its first couple of seasons rather than the technology's real life application in road cars.

I'm thinking positive, the same was said about FE and that's been a huge success IMO.

Yeah, if they're restricted to street tracks they're going to be limited by what they can do. I don't think they need to go down the big spectacle route like they did with FE though. The first few races could be absolutely comical depending on the AI. Might be best to keep it somewhat under the radar.

Uno my Uno. · 02-12-2015 6:30pm

ScumLord wrote: »

The only reason F1 cars, or any race car really, doesn't go faster is safety concerns for the driver. Everyone's afraid that if anything breaks while an F1 car is going around a corner at full chat, that car is going to go straight off the track at speed and kill the driver.

Human reactions are actually quite slow, it takes us about half a second to process information. That's why the human brain has been called a prediction machine, you're not actually reacting as much as you're predicting how much input you need at any particular time.

An AI controlled car could have all the wizardry available to race engineers and the ability to control it all. AI would be operating at thousands of a second, not tenths like we do. So it could be a race series with very few regulations.

You probably are right that at the start they will be relatively slow, but I could see that changing very fast.

I think thats a little simplistic, physics and most importantly money are the real limitations on speed. We can dream on though!

El_Duderino 09 · 02-12-2015 6:36pm

ScumLord wrote:

Human reactions are actually quite slow, it takes us about half a second to process information. That's why the human brain has been called a prediction machine, you're not actually reacting as much as you're predicting how much input you need at any particular time.

ScumLord wrote:

An AI controlled car could have all the wizardry available to race engineers and the ability to control it all. AI would be operating at thousands of a second, not tenths like we do. So it could be a race series with very few regulations.

Great points. On reflection, I think you could be spot on. Use all the gizmos to control the car and make it as relevant as possible to driverless road cars. You could attract all the major car manufacturers who would get a lot of R&D done without getting on Bernie Eccleston's gravy train.

ScumLord · 03-12-2015 1:24pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I think thats a little simplistic, physics and most importantly money are the real limitations on speed. We can dream on though!

I don't think they are close to any physical limitations. We all know the cars are strangled regularly to reduce speed. We can see online people want loud, fast as possible cars, so if they were only following the money they wouldn't have these controls on the sport, they would have let the big teams spend like mad to maintain their advantage. As far as I know most safety regulations have been designed to reduce the speed at which the cars can go through a corner. This is when the driver is at the most risk.

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Great points. On reflection, I think you could be spot on. Use all the gizmos to control the car and make it as relevant as possible to driverless road cars. You could attract all the major car manufacturers who would get a lot of R&D done without getting on Bernie Eccleston's gravy train.

Ya, it should be more attractive to real car manufacturers for that reason.

Uno my Uno. · 03-12-2015 7:17pm

We'll have to see how it goes. The cost of developing the cars some people are envisioning would be astronomical and with unclear potential for Revenue from sponsorship or exposure interest from major manufacturers will be limited. Resources would be better utilized in their own r&d departmrnts for driverless cars.

More likely we will see small technology companies adapting race car packages, this could yet yield impressive results (viz Lola in the champ car days) in terms of racing.

ScumLord · 04-12-2015 1:50pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

We'll have to see how it goes. The cost of developing the cars some people are envisioning would be astronomical and with unclear potential for Revenue from sponsorship or exposure interest from major manufacturers will be limited. Resources would be better utilized in their own r&d departmrnts for driverless cars.

Most the big manufacturers already have driverless cars developed. Tesla has already started rolling out the updates for their cars to be more autonomous. BMW showed one of their driverless cars drifting around a race track. What they need now is some real world testing. Tesla are relying on the cloud to collect data from all their cars and learn to drive that way.

Racing would give manufacturers am excellent way to test their systems, in an open and public way without putting thousands of people at risk. If it can handle a race start it can handle just about anything.

Sterling Archer · 04-12-2015 3:39pm

You could potentially see companies like Tesla, Google (unlikely tho), Damiler (Mercedes) etc getting involved in this, like Scumlord said it provides a great way to test systems.

(All companys with self driving vehicle programs).

Uno my Uno. · 05-12-2015 12:34am

I just don't see it, aside from the fact that race testing simply isn't necessary for driverless road cars the risks aren't balance by the potential rewards. Viewing figures will be low, very low, it's not even on mainstream television and no manufacturer wants to see its AI driver make a mistake and smash into a wall.

I also have a hard time believing that a link between AI racing and driverless road cars is going to sell any cars. The last think I want my driverless car to have is a driving style linked to a racing series. I want it to drive like someone's grandmother.

Ghost Train · 05-12-2015 12:53am

Could be a bit of fun, likely to have stuff not work right and be a bit crazy. The series had a good first season so good to see technology pushed on.

Frank Bullitt · 10-12-2015 11:53am

So I see on Sky News now that Jaguar are entering Formula E, thats great news.

PopePalpatine · 10-12-2015 12:01pm

I can't believe they're entering it before Honda, Nissan and Toyota considering those three's work on hybrid and electric cars.

Charlie-Bravo · 10-12-2015 12:07pm

Toyota do hybrid really well in road cars - I'm not sure if pure electric is their main direction as they are more interested in producing the Mirai which is a hydrogen-fueled road car. I think the Toyota iQ-EV is really only a token car for the purposes of having a product on the electric car market. While I appreciate electric cars and their development through this reacing series, (off-topic slightlynow) Hydrogen-fueled cars makes more sense to me.

donspeekinglesh · 10-12-2015 12:37pm

Toyota and Nissan are in WEC to work on their Hybrids.

Going Strong · 10-12-2015 1:01pm

And Honda can't even get to grips with the energy harvesting in F1 so God only knows how much they'd suck at pure electric power in Formula E. Coming last in two major racing series wouldn't look too good.

El_Duderino 09 · 10-12-2015 1:09pm

Going Strong wrote:

And Honda can't even get to grips with the energy harvesting in F1 so God only knows how much they'd suck at pure electric power in Formula E. Coming last in two major racing series wouldn't look too good.

The F1 programme must be costing them much more than they expected in terms of additional investment to solve the problem and lost positive publicity by being so poor

ScumLord · 10-12-2015 4:34pm

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I just don't see it, aside from the fact that race testing simply isn't necessary for driverless road cars the risks aren't balance by the potential rewards. Viewing figures will be low, very low, it's not even on mainstream television and no manufacturer wants to see its AI driver make a mistake and smash into a wall.

Possibly. But it could come from subsidiary companies that specialise in AI. I wouldn't say that being able to race has no parallels with driving on a public road. The AI can learn awareness, like humans AI needs to be able to predict driving behaviour, they need to be able to operate in close proximity to other cars. If they can do all these things on a race track it will translate into better road behaviour. I'm not saying they can take an AI out of a race car and put it into a road car but they would certainly learn a lot on the race track that can be translated to improved road performance.

I also have a hard time believing that a link between AI racing and driverless road cars is going to sell any cars. The last think I want my driverless car to have is a driving style linked to a racing series. I want it to drive like someone's grandmother.

We already know it does help sell cars. Manufacturers use their links to motorsport all the time. Hell even watch companies use their links to motorsport to sell watches.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-12-2015 10:54am

Gintonious wrote:

So I see on Sky News now that Jaguar are entering Formula E, thats great news.

PopePalpatine wrote:

I can't believe they're entering it before Honda, Nissan and Toyota considering those three's work on hybrid and electric cars.

Jaguar opened a new Â£100m research and development facility in Warwick University, looking into future technology for road cars.

FE is legitimately competing with F1 as the best place to develop relevant technology and show off your wears.

ScumLord · 11-12-2015 4:43pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Jaguar opened a new Â£100m research and development facility in Warwick University, looking into future technology for road cars.

FE is legitimately competing with F1 as the best place to develop relevant technology and show off your wears.

It's more relevant I think, I can't really see hybrid systems lasting once electric gets a longer lasting battery. Diesel might stick around for a while for commercial uses but if battery technology can get over 700km the petrol engines days are really numbered.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-12-2015 5:10pm

ScumLord wrote:

It's more relevant I think, I can't really see hybrid systems lasting once electric gets a longer lasting battery. Diesel might stick around for a while for commercial uses but if battery technology can get over 700km the petrol engines days are really numbered.

True. The difference would be that you can refill the petrol tank and be back on the road in 5 mins. Charging times need to come down or charge on the fly.

I read recently that Mercedes are actively developing hybrid road car technology. It hadn't made its way to the car shows yet though so that's not a guarantee that it will become the dominant technology of the future.

That's all a bit beside the point. I agree that FE is probably better value for money than F1 for a manufacturer looking to research and advertise through sport.

ScumLord · 11-12-2015 5:38pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

True. The difference would be that you can refill the petrol tank and be back on the road in 5 mins. Charging times need to come down or charge on the fly.

With a long range charging becomes less of an issue but yeah, if they could charge/replace a battery in under ten minutes it would be acceptable given the advantages of electric. I'm sure as electric becomes more and more popular they'll come up with better charging methods, at the moment the consumer base just isn't there. It's a solvable problem, we just need more people in electric cars to fix it.

I read recently that Mercedes are actively developing hybrid road car technology. It hadn't made its way to the car shows yet though so that's not a guarantee that it will become the dominant technology of the future.

The new engines on the market are pretty incredible, the amount of power and efficiency they're getting is very impressive. But I think they're really reaching the limits of what can be expected from an engine. The big problem I have with hybrid is the complexity of the power system. Electric is much simpler, less to go wrong.

Charlie-Bravo · 17-12-2015 11:26pm

The Uruguay race is on this Saturday 18 Dec at 7pm. The coverage begins at 6pm on ITV4.

The Trulli Team has withdrawn leaving just 18 cars from 9 constructor teams. Perhaps this will allow a new team in before the end of the season. From reading online articles, they keep saying them leaving opens up the door to another team. Perhaps something is ready to go for the following race?

Formula E

Comments