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Two TDs arrested at Shannon Airport

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    #32
    CptSternn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭CptSternn


    The issue has been raised in the Dail. A few times. I usually don't quote the Indo as its a total rag IMHO but they actually did a nice piece on this was it yesterday or today where they cited the number of times in the Dail it has come up and each time the Minister of Justice just hushed the whole thing saying they had been given a 'gentlemans agreement' by the US that those things were not happening. That was FF and now is FG both of which claim they have been given assurances, even though a warplane with an external gun landed here and the fact the call signs for the planes now publicly listed by multiple news sources as CIA rendition flights were not only spotted but pictures taken and their signs documented as landing here.

    I wonder if the Americans would be as accommodating if we had Irish flights landing on American soil and told them to take our word we were not transporting anything they would have issue with, therefore don't search any Irish flights.


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    #33
    Mr. G
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 4,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Mr. G


    CptSternn wrote: »
    The issue has been raised in the Dail. A few times. I usually don't quote the Indo as its a total rag IMHO but they actually did a nice piece on this was it yesterday or today where they cited the number of times in the Dail it has come up and each time the Minister of Justice just hushed the whole thing saying they had been given a 'gentlemans agreement' by the US that those things were not happening. That was FF and now is FG both of which claim they have been given assurances, even though a warplane with an external gun landed here and the fact the call signs for the planes now publicly listed by multiple news sources as CIA rendition flights were not only spotted but pictures taken and their signs documented as landing here.

    I wonder if the Americans would be as accommodating if we had Irish flights landing on American soil and told them to take our word we were not transporting anything they would have issue with, therefore don't search any Irish flights.

    Oh course the US would search it. I do feel that Ireland need to tighten security at our borders, especially due to the civil unrest in other parts of the world.

    Anything in the Irish airspace can be searched by Irish law. If the Americans are not seeking permission to bring weapons into the country, that is dishonest and I would not allow it. These things are not as simple as they appear though.


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    #34
    CptSternn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭CptSternn


    http://www.thejournal.ie/human-rights-poland-echr-cia-1587354-Jul2014/

    Poland found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights of facilitating torture. Guess what? It won't be long until our country is next.

    Hey anyone remember when Poland said, no, the Americans aren't torturing people in a secret prison here? It sounded a lot like our government when it said, no, the Americans are not transporting people to be tortured through here.


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    #35
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    CptSternn wrote: »
    http://www.thejournal.ie/human-rights-poland-echr-cia-1587354-Jul2014/

    Poland found guilty by the European Court of Human Rights of facilitating torture. Guess what? It won't be long until our country is next.

    Might be the best thing that could happen .... at least it would force something to be done!

    Hey anyone remember when Poland said, no, the Americans aren't torturing people in a secret prison here? It sounded a lot like our government when it said, no, the Americans are not transporting people to be tortured through here.


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    #36
    Brennans Row
    Registered Users Posts: 1,974 ✭✭✭Brennans Row


    Shannon Airport security not a concern after TDs arrests (Live95fm)

    The CEO of Shannon Airport says security levels at the airport are fully compliant with international standards.

    Neil Pakey says they have not needed to review security arrangements following a breach by two independent TDs this week.

    Mick Wallace and Clare Daly were arrested on the tarmac where they were attempting to inspect two US Military aircraft.

    Mr Pakey has condemned their actions but says the airport security is not in question.



    I would disagree with him and after listening to the interview regarding security compliance, he runs the danger of been complacent.

    Because on one hand security is so tight for passengers boarding flights and then again it can be undermined by protestors breaching the perimeter fence and approach any aircraft as they please.


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    #37
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Brennans Row wrote: »
    Shannon Airport security not a concern after TDs arrests (Live95fm)

    The CEO of Shannon Airport says security levels at the airport are fully compliant with international standards.

    Neil Pakey says they have not needed to review security arrangements following a breach by two independent TDs this week.

    Mick Wallace and Clare Daly were arrested on the tarmac where they were attempting to inspect two US Military aircraft.

    Mr Pakey has condemned their actions but says the airport security is not in question.



    I would disagree with him and after listening to the interview regarding security compliance, he runs the danger of been complacent.

    Because on one hand security is so tight for passengers boarding flights and then again it can be undermined by protestors breaching the perimeter fence and approach any aircraft as they please.

    I know it's probably impractical to physically patrol the whole perimeter 24/7, but surely it's possible to have monitored cameras watching the fences. Especially on the Aeropsace side of the runway where all the incursions seem to occur.


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    #38
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    I know it's probably impractical to physically patrol the whole perimeter 24/7, but surely it's possible to have monitored cameras watching the fences. Especially on the Aeropsace side of the runway where all the incursions seem to occur.
    They should monitor all the illegal activity going on inside the fence while they're at it.


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    #39
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    They should monitor all the illegal activity going on inside the fence while they're at it.

    Trespassing on the airfield and crossing a live runway is both illegal and idiotically dangerous to themselves and others. There are plenty of other safer ways to protest and has already said on this thread, it was nothing more than a publicity stunt.


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    #40
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Trespassing on the airfield and crossing a live runway is both illegal and idiotically dangerous to themselves and others. There are plenty of other safer ways to protest and has already said on this thread, it was nothing more than a publicity stunt.
    None of which is connected to the point I was making.
    Why did you quote me at all?


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    #41
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    None of which is connected to the point I was making.
    Why did you quote me at all?

    Why did you quote me with your theory about illegal activity at the airport when I was talking about preventing people trespassing at the airport? That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.


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    #42
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.
    Oh, they've been convicted already? Where was this, Guantanamo District Court?


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    #43
    CptSternn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭CptSternn


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Why did you quote me with your theory about illegal activity at the airport when I was talking about preventing people trespassing at the airport? That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.

    Dan beat me to it but you can't deem something illegal without a conviction. Innocent until proven guilty and all. Just look at the Pit Stop Ploughshares. They broke into the airport and destroyed a fighter jet (which was not supposed to be there) and their actions were deemed legal in court by a jury of 12.

    The last thing the government wants to do is put these two in trial as there is a very good chance they will be let go and once again it will garnish international attention.


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    #44
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Oh, they've been convicted already? Where was this, Guantanamo District Court?
    CptSternn wrote: »
    Dan beat me to it but you can't deem something illegal without a conviction. Innocent until proven guilty and all.

    What are ye on about? You can't deem something illegal without a conviction? Things are illegal as deemed by law not by conviction. If I break the speed limit while driving then I've done something illegal, whether I'm convicted or not. In this situation it's illegal to trepass onto the airfield at Shannon airport. They HAVE done something illegal. We've all seen the pictures and neither of them deny doing it.


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    #45
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    Why did you quote me with your theory about illegal activity at the airport when I was talking about preventing people trespassing at the airport? That is what this thread is about. An actual criminal action rather than a possible one.

    This thread is about inadequate security at Shannon airport?
    Boy, are you on the wrong train.


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    #46
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    The only thing that concerns me about this whole incident, is that it is necessary for such incidents to occur, to bring the present lack of security at our borders to light, and how we deal with such things as military aircraft landing without inspections ever taking place.

    It should not be necessary for people to take extraordinary measures to highlight such things.

    Whether those actions were illegal or not is a secondary consideration (for me) to the main point of those actions.


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    #47
    Mr. G
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 4,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭Mr. G


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    This thread is about inadequate security at Shannon airport?
    Boy, are you on the wrong train.

    Just to clarify things, the thread title mentions this specific incident and the OP deals with the state of security at Shannon. Please stop bickering. Thanks


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    #48
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    The only thing that concerns me about this whole incident, is that it is necessary for such incidents to occur, to bring the present lack of security at our borders to light, and how we deal with such things as military aircraft landing without inspections ever taking place.

    It should not be necessary for people to take extraordinary measures to highlight such things.

    Whether those actions were illegal or not is a secondary consideration (for me) to the main point of those actions.

    It is not just a lack of security, but the Irish state saying "We don't care what goes on with those planes, guns, supplies, suspects being flown to dodgy countries to be tortured, just pay us and we'll look the other way".
    And the vehement and almost angry defense of the same by some people in Ireland (in general, not just this thread) just goes to show the sort of passive-aggressive disregard of what goes on there.
    People get angry when the truth gets pointed out, a particularly puzzling human trait.


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    #49
    knockon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭knockon


    I have been on a number of these "war planes" that people keep quoting. I worked for a number of years in SNN in maintenance and handling. Military have been using the airport since it opened over 70 years ago.
    We all have an opinion on the rights and wrongs of allowing our airports to be used by any foreign military.
    My own opinion is lots of these airlines in the past such as Evergreen, American Trans Air, Sun Country, World Airways etc provide a huge injection of money into the local economy. Omni International right now are spending a thousands of euro on crew accommodation in Limerick City. In 2003 World Airways spent over €100,000.00 on crew accommodation in Jury's Hotel in Limerick.
    These war planes are Boeing 757, Md11's and are no different from the ones you use to fly to Malaga or New York. I don't really care if their side arms are in the hold of the aircraft on their way to or from the USA. We have armed US Federal Agents regularly in SNN under the US Air Marshall programme on US carriers to Newark, Chicago, New York and Philadelphia. These US agents are there to protect us(the passengers) against the number one terrorist threat which is Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who coincidentally are the same guys who may or may not have been renditioned through SNN.

    It may not be PC to say it but I fail to understand why everyone is so concerned about a couple of guys who may or may not have been renditioned through the airport. Local economy, jobs and a strong airport future is my priority.


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    #50
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    It may not be PC to say it but I fail to understand why everyone is so concerned about a couple of guys who may or may not have been renditioned through the airport. Local economy, jobs and a strong airport future is my priority.

    .... and that to me is at the heart of the problem!


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    #51
    CptSternn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭CptSternn


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    What are ye on about? You can't deem something illegal without a conviction? Things are illegal as deemed by law not by conviction. If I break the speed limit while driving then I've done something illegal, whether I'm convicted or not. In this situation it's illegal to trepass onto the airfield at Shannon airport. They HAVE done something illegal. We've all seen the pictures and neither of them deny doing it.

    You obviously are not well versed in law. Have you never heard of the statutory lawful excuse defence? It means you can break the law if you do so for a good reason.

    Per your speeding analogy, if you had a sick child or found a child that has been injured on the side of the road, would you not take them in your car as fast as possible to the nearest hospital, speeding along the way? If you are stopped by Gards or caught on a Gatso you could apply this defence in court and your actions would be deemed legal all thanks to the statutory lawful excuse defence.

    If you think a country is illegally trafficking people through an airport so they can be tortured and you attempt to draw attention to this there is not a court in Ireland that would convict you because of the statutory lawful excuse defence. It doesn't even matter if you are right about it or not, only that you believe you were doing the right thing when you committed the act.

    Even better, if the prosecution wants to prove you were doing something illegal they first have to prove you were wrong, which means they have to search the planes. They have to prove you were wrong and you acted in bad faith or were just plain mental. Either way they can't do that without first searching the plane. As long as no searches are happening, there will be no case.


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    #52
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    .... and that to me is at the heart of the problem!

    Absolutely. Keep the head down, watch the money roll in and head down to the pub.
    The same reason 17 people will turn up at a rally about peace or human rights, but 15000 if they think they might have to pay a fiver more in tax.
    So yeah, turn on the footy, grab a beer and put your feet up, anything not to have to think.
    Those are the rewards of wiping your arse with the Geneva Convention.


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    #53
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    I really don't get the whole high horse thing here. The state has told another state that they can use their facilities once they adhere to certain conditions, the other state have agreed to these, any state mandated checks are carried out and dealt with accordingly, private citizens cannot and should not be carrying out their own checks, there are departments for this. If I thought that a house in Wexford was storing drugs and went and broke in up there to check I wouldn't be just given a slap on the wrist.

    Long and the short of it, if you think that there is something illegal happening, report it and ask for a copy of the results of the investigation, if you aren't happy with this then escalate it through whatever channels are available to you, if you still aren't happy about it you can either get over it or f**k off, no-one is forcing you to stay.


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    #54
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    The Irish state is complicit in torture and human rights abuses, so its pointless to report it to the Irish authorities.
    We might as well allow the victims to be tortured here, for all the difference that makes.
    Yes, I am from a different country, I was taught that "I was only following orders" is not a valid excuse. This may also go on in other countries, does it make it right?
    We signed up to certain standards and we should adhere to them, like it or not.

    Are you saying people should shut up about this and sweep it under the rug?
    If even one or two people come away from this thread with a different viewpoint, I would judge that as a good thing.
    And why do you think people protest? Because they have exhaustet all the official channels and got nowhere.


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    #55
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    @Clareman
    So if you don't like things you should **** off?
    You don't like the way Ireland has signed up to the Geneva conventions and the European Court of Human rights I guess. When's your flight out?


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    #56
    CptSternn
    Registered Users Posts: 1,530 ✭✭✭CptSternn


    Clareman wrote: »
    Long and the short of it, if you think that there is something illegal happening, report it and ask for a copy of the results of the investigation, if you aren't happy with this then escalate it through whatever channels are available to you, if you still aren't happy about it you can either get over it or f**k off, no-one is forcing you to stay.

    You think that approach would have worked in regards to ending slavery in America?

    What if that was the approach taken when our country was dealing with the Black and Tans?

    It only works if the government is not also complicit.

    And if everyone who takes issue with human rights violations and is against torture leaves Ireland, do you really think it will make our country a better place?


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    #57
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    What the 2 TD's did was nothing more than a publicity stunt, high viz jackets and photographer in place as well as the timing for it to be just as the Dail broke for their summer holidays.

    If you have a problem with the flights, bring a complaint to the law or your local politician or a minister or to the EU or to the Amnesty International or to the UN. Ireland has constraints in place for these flights, the people on them (if any) have not been detained in our country, if we take the moral high ground and refuse the right to land then all that will happen is they will refuel elsewhere, don't think that the practise will stop just because we don't allow refuelling.


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    #58
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,923 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    CptSternn wrote: »
    You think that approach would have worked in regards to ending slavery in America?

    What if that was the approach taken when our country was dealing with the Black and Tans?

    It only works if the government is not also complicit.

    And if everyone who takes issue with human rights violations and is against torture leaves Ireland, do you really think it will make our country a better place?

    This is 1 of the most ridiculous posts I have ever come across, don't let facts get in the way of discussion.

    Ending slavery in America was not just an American thing but a global thing, slavery was an acceptable and widely accepted practise world wide.

    Dealing with the Black and Tans, what? Comparing a temporary police force enforced during a civil war prior to the availability of outside agencies such as the UN to the making available of airport facilities, what?

    It's not just our government, there is also the EU and the UN, Poland got held to task for not following the rules, do you think that Ireland isn't being reviewing as well?

    I'm saying that if you don't like the way of appealing against what you feel are injustices that are in place in this country, then leave. I think a county will be a better place if educated people make informed and deliberate decisions to make change, not just mad cap vigilante type campaigns.


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    #59
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Writing a polite letter to the correct channels in this case is going to exactly fcuk all. I don't accept gtfo as an argument and quite frankly I find it insulting and offensive, so the only way I can counter that is "oh yeah, why don't you come over here and MAKE me?".
    Sometimes changes do not come about by polite means, sometimes it does take riots and burning barricades, not likely in Ireland, but on can only hope
    Civil courage and disobedience, look it up.


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    #60
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users Posts: 13,990 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Clareman wrote: »
    I really don't get the whole high horse thing here. The state has told another state that they can use their facilities once they adhere to certain conditions, the other state have agreed to these, any state mandated checks are carried out and dealt with accordingly, private citizens cannot and should not be carrying out their own checks, there are departments for this. If I thought that a house in Wexford was storing drugs and went and broke in up there to check I wouldn't be just given a slap on the wrist.

    Long and the short of it, if you think that there is something illegal happening, report it and ask for a copy of the results of the investigation, if you aren't happy with this then escalate it through whatever channels are available to you, if you still aren't happy about it you can either get over it or f**k off, no-one is forcing you to stay.

    So you believe it is worth a damn reporting "something illegal happening" to the very people who are perpetrating it?

    And no, I will not "f**k off" out of this country because someone does not like my opinion of how this state is run.

    That is one of the most unacceptable things I have ever seen posted on boards.
    What the 2 TD's did was nothing more than a publicity stunt, high viz jackets and photographer in place as well as the timing for it to be just as the Dail broke for their summer holidays.

    Yes of course it was a publicity stunt ...... surely you did not think it anything else? ..... or did you?

    It was designed to bring attention to the situation, and obviously it has ... even here.

    So I would say their sojourn on the tarmac has had the success they desired.


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    #61
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    Anyways, calming down a bit, what would happen if an Irish military plane where to land in the US and the authorities there where told "you're not boarding this plane, sunshine!"?
    I reckon it would be boarded within 5 seconds whilst staff where hogtied on the ground.
    This is the US bullying the Irish state, it's a cliche, but they can't just come in here and start throwing orders about.
    We have certain rules and procedures and we can't just throw them out the window for some and not others.
    Yes, this is not just an Irish problem, all of Europe has questions to answer.
    http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?language=EN&type=IM-PRESS&reference=20070209IPR02947
    Is rendition still going on? Who knows, but not knowing is no excuse.
    How does one protest a Europe-wide problem? Writing a letter to your local TD kind of seems not enough...


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