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Households must pay for water meters.

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Comments

  • #392
    Lone Stone
    Registered Users Posts: 3,405 ✭✭✭Lone Stone


    ehh so what if we just buy our own feckin meter's ?

    Also i dont disagree with the water charge, but the water here is fecking foul full of that floroid and going buy the nightmare we found under our back garden that was the sewer pipe for our block which consisted of ROTTEN BARREL connecting two pipe's i dread to think what state the water pipes would be like in my area.


  • #393
    Matt Bauer
    Registered Users Posts: 628 ✭✭✭Matt Bauer


    I am not against the water charge, but households should be exempted if the water is not of high quality. Luckily, it's easy to test water quality.

    Unlike the household charge, the water charge does make a lot of sense. But it needs to be used in conjunction with better water management. Likewise, water is valuable and should never be privatised.


  • #394
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    One million homes

    that's €780 million , and maybe it will reduce domestic water demand by 10%, maybe. We use 160L/day compared to the UK where with meters they use 150L


    Does anyone have a figure for the % of water users who would go over the "allowance" ? Because the meters aren't of any use for most people, only those who exceed the quota.

    Except that's wrong isn't it our allowance will be just 1/3 to 1/2 the average daily usage, not that generous when meters will only reduce demand by maybe 1/10th ,in fact it's kinda like saying almost everyone will have to pay for additional water as if water usage here is bell shaped then very few people will match the 40L or even 60L suggested.


    BTW in the UK you can save money on meters, because you can choose whether to go flat rate or metered and get assessed on circumstances http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/cut-water-bills
    You've 12 months to try it out. Switch to a water meter and, if you change your mind you can switch back within 12 months or a month after your second measured bill, whichever is later (move into a home which already has a meter and you can't switch back). So you can try it to see if it works out for you.
    Does having a meter hit your house price? Some say meters lower a house's sale price.
    How will that work here ?


    Oh yeah http://www.cieh.org/library/Knowledge/Environmental_protection/waterpoverty.pdf
    The Government’s standard for fuel poverty – a household needing to spend more
    than 10% of its net income on fuel to achieve a satisfactory heating regime – can be
    extrapolated to imply water poverty where a household needs to spend more than 3%
    of its income on water charges.

    Water poverty


  • #395
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    Meter / installation charge of €40 a year for 20 years! WOW!!!! €800! You couldn't make this up!!!


  • #396
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Meter / installation charge of €40 a year for 20 years! WOW!!!! €800! You couldn't make this up!!!
    Since that figure is speculation only, yes you could make it up.


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  • #397
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dvpower wrote: »
    Since that figure is speculation only, yes you could make it up.

    Post 389.
    ...Government sources confirmed yesterday the cost per household, based on the size of the NPRF loan, would work out at about €780...
    Here is the link again: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0417/1224314823981.html


  • #398
    sh1tstirrer
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭sh1tstirrer


    Palytoxin wrote: »
    Is there a charge if you have your own well?
    No


  • #399
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Biggins wrote: »
    Post 389.


    Here is the link again: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0417/1224314823981.html

    As I said - speculation.
    However, it was stressed that the ultimate decision on the size of the annual standing charge would be a decision for the Commission for Energy Regulation, which will be dealing with the new water metering service.

    It will not be in a position to make any deliberation until the new water company had begun its operations.

    When you see figures coming from unnamed 'Government sources', you can take it that it is kite flying


  • #400
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,609 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Bishop_Donal wrote: »
    BTW, in respect of tenants, I am a firm believer in allowing the free market dictate.

    I jacked up the rent I charge my tenants by Eur200 to cover the introduction of the Household charge. I probably wudn't have given them a rent increase in 2012 otherwise. But if it comforts you, my tenants are actually paying it twice!!

    I got hammered and accused of trolling the last time I made this point (which is not the case). The bottom line is that a rent increase of twice the magnitude of the charge was the only way I could maintain the rent I was receiving.

    And before somebody points it out, I know that that my tenants will move on if I increase the rent above the market average (but they havn't so far so I take that as a good sign of my judgment in this regard).

    ROFL, letting the free market decide! I suppose you must then agree with letting the free market decide on the banks instead of all this state intervention. Bearing in mind that is exactly where your payment is going to.

    I would imagine your tenants are looking on property websites presently. Because if you 'jacked' up my rent id give you the fingers and be off.


  • #401
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Without having to read through the complete thread, what's the story with the speculation that they're going to outsource water management so the councils wont have to deal with it?


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  • #402
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,609 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    smash wrote: »
    Without having to read through the complete thread, what's the story with the speculation that they're going to outsource water management so the councils wont have to deal with it?

    Well the stated on RTE last night that a new all singing and dancing quango will be setup to manage the water services in ireland. Im sure with our track record you realise that will never stay in state ownership.

    Or are you blinkered?


  • #403
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dvpower wrote: »
    ...When you see figures coming from unnamed 'Government sources', you can take it that it is kite flying
    Maybe but I'm assuming that at least a few heads in the government have enough kop to know a little about what they are talking about.
    (yea, I know, I'm very optimistic - maybe too much!)


  • #404
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    listermint wrote: »
    Well the stated on RTE last night that a new all singing and dancing quango will be setup to manage the water services in ireland. Im sure with our track record you realise that will never stay in state ownership.

    Or are you blinkered?

    What's with your attitude?


  • #405
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    listermint wrote: »
    Well the stated on RTE last night that a new all singing and dancing quango will be setup to manage the water services in ireland. Im sure with our track record you realise that will never stay in state ownership.

    Or are you blinkered?

    An existing state body according to RTE this morning.
    rte.ie wrote:
    Ministers are expected to sign off on the State body that will take over responsibility for water services later this morning.

    Bord na Móna and Bord Gáis are in contention, with the latter tipped by some observers to be the preferred choice.


  • #406
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dvpower wrote: »
    An existing state body according to RTE this morning.

    I would honestly prefer a basic service like water, to stay in state hands.
    When we start handing over everything to private business, it sometimes brings us closer yet again to the America way of doing things for example.
    Something I'm personally not in favour of at times.


  • #407
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,609 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    smash wrote: »
    What's with your attitude?

    Apologies, your post looked like you werent miffed reading the thread.


  • #408
    Nothingbetter2d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,038 ✭✭✭Nothingbetter2d


    mishkalucy wrote: »
    I no longer live in the big shmoke but down the country. If you take a bath in my house it is the only time in your life that you will get out dirtier than you got in.
    Having said that, the water in my mothers house in the city sticks of chemicals, so much so that it would singe your nostril hair. No winners there then.

    crikey you must really stink then.... either that or your bath water comes from a slurry pit.


  • #409
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,809 ✭✭✭✭smash


    listermint wrote: »
    Apologies, your post looked like you werent miffed reading the thread.
    My post asked a question about outsourcing to a private company!


  • #410
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Biggins wrote: »
    I would honestly prefer a basic service like water, to stay in state hands.
    When we start handing over everything to private business, it sometimes brings us closer yet again to the America way of doing things for example.
    Something I'm personally not in favour of at times.

    In agreement with this. Stuff like water should stay in state hand imho. Also the police and prisons as well. I have heard some horror stories about private prisons, basically keeping people inside in the US, just so they can make some money.


  • #411
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,684 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Biggins wrote: »
    I would honestly prefer a basic service like water, to stay in state hands.
    When we start handing over everything to private business, it sometimes brings us closer yet again to the America way of doing things for example.
    Something I'm personally not in favour of at times.
    Prefer ?

    Infrastructure MUST remain in state hands.

    Look at how much the M50 toll bridge cost us.
    - €1.15Bn for an initial investment of €35 million

    What has this got to do with meters ?
    On February 14, 2007 the Board of the National Roads Authority announced its decision to award the contract for the construction and operation of the barrier-free tolling on the M50 to the French consortium, BetEire Flow.
    ...
    This contract is a fixed services contract that includes the design, construction, and operation for eight years valued at €113 million, plus VAT.
    Let that sink in for a minute - it's costing us a lot more to collect tolls than it cost to build the bridge, even if you double the cost to take into account the second bridge.

    And there is the extra cost of renting fobs / 25-50% overhead for paying online, and that's before the opportunistic fines.

    Oh and the €35 million bridge built with private money would have been worthless without the €300 million of public money that paid for the road to it. Remember this when they sell off the water system to the private sector for a fraction of it's value. :mad:

    And you have to remember the "reason" for buying out the bridge was that NTR were causing traffic congestion , and hence economic knock on effects, collecting the toll. Blackmail wouldn't be too strong a word for it IMHO

    With water meters it's a similar situation - there is no cost benefit to metering except to provide a revenue stream.
    The money is better invested in improving the mains / educating people on not wasting water.



    Look at how much the Eircom monopoly on copper cost us,
    - 10 years delay in the introduction of ADSL
    - how far did that set us back in the global economy ?


    At this stage it could even be cheaper to give all their non ADSL customers a mobile phone, and run the network into the ground, using the freed up lines, to give time to install a new national Fibre to the cabinet network or some such. There is no point in throwing more money into that bottomless pit. Lot of jobs could be created in removing copper, though you'd have to implement some Draconian measures / controls to prevent others joining a free for all. Though the govt will probably give in to IMHO Blackmail to prop up the network.


    Then there was Dublin Gas, government subsidies to it were more than the share value of the company.


    Taken with the failure to impose common ducting to all new builds during the boom, I think it's safe to say we've screwed up infrastructure in a very expensive way.


    The examples of NTR and Eircom show how we can easily waste billions and get nothing tangible back, except for a dog in the manger attitude.



    If the waterworks get privatised, I predict it will work like Eircom. Public money will be invested in a state of the art network to fatten it up and there will then be little or no investment after privatisation. We had full direct dialing long before the UK, but since then it's been minimum spend.


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  • #412
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    2 years ago I was asking about the cost of installation and maintenance of water meters. Finally someone has put that to a politician :

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0417/breaking3.html
    Prospect of €780 water meter fee

    HARRY McGEE, Political Correspondent

    Tue, Apr 17, 2012

    Households will pay an average of €39 per annum over 20 years ((Guarantee you this will increase)) to cover the cost of the loan from the National Pension Reserve Fund to install water meters in one million Irish homes.

    Government sources confirmed yesterday the cost per household, based on the size of the NPRF loan, would work out at about €780, but that the cost would be levied as a standing charge over a period of two decades, in much the same way as such charges are already imposed by other utilities such as the ESB and Bord Gáis.

    However, it was stressed that the ultimate decision on the size of the annual standing charge would be a decision for the Commission for Energy Regulation, which will be dealing with the new water metering service.

    It will not be in a position to make any deliberation until the new water company had begun its operations.

    Taoiseach Enda Kenny confirmed yesterday that householders would pay for the cost of the meters but that the cost would not be an upfront one. Charges are to become operable in early 2014.

    “Obviously when you provide water meters somebody has to pay for them. We’ve made absolutely no decision about this. Any charge will . . . be the absolute minimum because of the difficulties that are involved here,” Mr Kenny said.

    The clarification came ahead of today’s Cabinet meeting, where Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan will bring a memo setting out an implementation plan for installing water meters nationwide in time for water charges to be introduced in early 2014.

    He will also bring proposals to set up the new utility company, Irish Water, on a transitional basis. It will replace the functions currently performed by 34 local authorities. ((Fantastic another fcuking financial blackhole)

    Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore said today no decision had been made on water meter charges. ((he is a lying toerag))

    Speaking on his way into Government Buildings for a Cabinet meeting, Mr Gilmore said pricing arrangements and proposals for setting up a water company have yet to be discussed by the Government.

    He said the Cabinet would discuss the establishment of the Irish Water Company.

    In the previous 24 hours the Government had struggled to clear up confusion surrounding the pricing model. Mr Kenny had said that households would have to pay for meters but their installation would be free.

    Tánaiste Eamon Gilmore said today no decision had been made on water meter charges.

    Speaking on his way into Government Buildings for a Cabinet meeting, Mr Gilmore said pricing arrangements and proposals for setting up a water company have yet to be discussed by the Government.

    He said the Cabinet would discuss the establishment of the Irish Water Company.

    The Taoiseach said yesterday that as many as 2,000 jobs would be created through the installation of water meters in the State. He also set out what will be a key plank of the Government’s strategy in its efforts to persuade the public of the need for efficient water management systems by saying “water was one of the most precious commodities”.

    Government sources said last night that, in general, no charge would be applied until water meters were installed. However, it is unlikely that all one million homes will have meters in place by the end of next year.

    The sources said households that have no meters installed will pay an “assessed charge” based on the metered charges paid by comparable metered properties. This system will be applied to the approximately 350,000 households that will not be metered because it would be too costly or too logistically difficult.

    Minister for Finance Michael Noonan said no formal decision had been taken yet over who would take over the running of the State’s water and that it would be “premature” to be speculating what costs would be involved for consumers.

    “I see meters as the friend of the householder and friend of business, as they’ll prevent people from paying for water that’s wasted,” he said.

    Fianna Fáil environment spokesman Niall Collins described the handling of water metering as the “latest fiasco” at the Department of the Environment.

    “The lack of any clear answer from Ministers over the last 24 hours on the question of whether or not households will be asked to pay for a water meter proves one thing: this Government has no meaningful strategy on water reform.”

    “Already we are seeing worrying similarities with the communications disaster that surrounded the household charge,” he said.

    Sinn Féin’s Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Brian Stanley criticised the handling of the issue, as well as the potential costs for householders. The party is opposed to the charge.

    © 2012 irishtimes.com

    Short version is yes you are going to pay through the nose for both the meter installation and also the ongoing maintenance, replacement and repair of said meter network into perpetuity. In addition to the actual water charges. Another fantastic Green Party initiative.


  • #413
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    ...If the waterworks get privatised, I predict it will work like Eircom. Public money will be invested in a state of the art network to fatten it up and there will then be little or no investment after privatisation. We had full direct dialing long before the UK, but since then it's been minimum spend.

    ALL post well said, couldn't agree more!


  • #414
    okedoke
    Registered Users Posts: 921 ✭✭✭okedoke


    I haven' read the full thread but it makes sense to me that each household would pay for its own meter. The alternative is not that it is provided free, but that the taxpayer pays for everyone's meter.

    I often think those who reflexively freak out whenever a new charge is announced don't understand that money (for example to pay for meters but the same applies for any service) has to be raised somehow and if its not through targeted charges it will be through general taxation.


  • #415
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    I wonder will there be an option for people to pay for the cost of their meter up front. I don't really want a 20 year loan from the NPRF.


  • #416
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    we are thinking of one of those rainwater harvesting systems that can be put underground, so that cuts out the middleman


  • #417
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    dvpower wrote: »
    I wonder will there be an option for people to pay for the cost of their meter up front. I don't really want a 20 year loan from the NPRF.

    A loan by the way...
    1.35 million households paying €40 per year would raise more than €1bn -- more than double the NPRF's €450m loan.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/40-a-year-for-water-meters-no-decision-insists-gilmore-3082242.html


  • #418
    Groinshot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Groinshot


    Biggins wrote: »
    You might even have to pay a rental fee for the meter - after you have paid for it to be installed?

    You even highlighted the part of the post that said pay a rental fee OR pay for it to be installed.....


  • #419
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Biggins wrote: »
    A loan by the way...



    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/40-a-year-for-water-meters-no-decision-insists-gilmore-3082242.html
    That's why I'd prefer to pay upfront. Any loan over a 20 year term is going to work out to be very expensive.


  • #420
    Biggins
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,568 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Groinshot wrote: »
    You even highlighted the part of the post that said pay a rental fee OR pay for it to be installed.....

    Indeed - seeming as the nuts in power want everyone to far pay over the odds for the thing, either way the public is open to maybe being ripped off in possible over-charging!

    If I have to pay for a meter, I want the ability to pay for it in one go - not forced to pay it off over 40 years and further having a much longer financial bill on my shoulders and giving a government an opportunity to rip me off with far inflated price for a piece of equipment!


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  • #421
    Fiskar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,599 ✭✭✭Fiskar


    Biggins wrote: »
    Indeed - seeming as the nuts in power want everyone to far pay over the odds for the thing, either way the public is open to maybe being ripped off in possible over-charging!

    If I have to pay for a meter, I want the ability to pay for it in one go - not forced to pay it off over 40 years and further having a much longer financial bill on my shoulders and giving a government an opportunity to rip me off with far inflated price for a piece of equipment!

    What if it breaks, at least the rental charge will cover the replacement cost but you probably will have to start another 20 year loan then to pay for that one!
    Anyone know how long these plastic water meters last? First winter of ice and snow and guess where the water will freeze! Probably not allowed interfere with them so you'll have to go without water.


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