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What is your religion and why is it the right one?

13

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Scofflaw wrote:
    The most vivid case in point was a (taped) session with a Tibetan oracle (actually a 40-year old Indian army officer) channelling a minor God (who used to be, I think, one of the abbots of the monastery my brother was staying at). A question had been asked on a point of history (my brother had been asking questions about the monastery's history, and the current abbot suggested they ask the god), and the oracle was replying in some detail. At one point he needed to write something down (in Old Tibetan), and my brother loaned the god his pen (ceremonially handed over on a cushion!). My brother has the privilege of having a god on tape thanking him for the loan of his pen. I have yet to listen to the tape, alas.

    I have to consider the combination of a professional witness personally known to me as reliable with a tape as reasonably solid. Although I can think of plenty of other possible explanations for the phenomenon, I cannot a priori rule out the god explanation.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Scofflaw, that's an interesting story, and if it really happened that way then clearly something pretty strange was taking place which is not easy to understand or explain. However as is invariably the case in these situations, suggesting that 'it was god/a god' is neither here nor there. Doesn't really explain anything. Doesn't rule out the god explanation but hardly rules it in either. But then you know that anyway.

    As regards the OP's question, I am atheist. Functionally anyway, in that I do not believe in any of the gods of any religion that I know of, and consider the god of the Abrahamic religions (I was raised catholic so it is the most familiar one to me) to be a construct of the human mind. And I would say I'm sure to a high degree of certainty that that god does not exist in the way those religions would like me to believe.

    I do not go so far as to dismiss the concept of a 'god' or 'creator' completely, as I simply don't know for sure. I just think our ideas of a supernatural god and what form such an entity might take (using the word 'form' fairly loosely) are probably very naieve and limited by our own understanding, or moreso the lack of it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    aidan24326 wrote:
    I do not go so far as to dismiss the concept of a 'god' or 'creator' completely, as I simply don't know for sure. I just think our ideas of a supernatural god and what form such an entity might take (using the word 'form' fairly loosely) are probably very naieve and limited by our own understanding, or moreso the lack of it.

    That would make you an agnostic then rather then an athiest :)


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    I'm with scofflaw on this one
    but I wouldn't worship any gods since I don't see any point to it
    I'm a buddhist. Why is it the right one? Well, it's right for me for many reasons.
    But no one religion would be right for everyone, and that even includes buddhism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Thaedydal wrote:
    That would make you an agnostic then rather then an athiest :)

    Not necessarily. I am atheist in so far as not believing in any god. Atheism is defined as 'lack of belief in a god'. That would make me atheist. I do take the view that the idea of a god cannot be totally dismissed, as there are many unknowns. What I would say is I consider the existence of an all-powerful god (or gods) to be very unlikely, but it would be arrogant of me to say 'there is no god', as there could be for all I know. There is some overlap between atheist and agnostic viewpoints in any case and it's why I'm not a great fan of these type of pigeon-holing terms.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    hairyheretic said:
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wolfsbane
    It is certainly better than doing what you want regardless of others. But my point was that those holding to that philosophy cannot sincerely claim to be Christian.


    Why not? If someone believes that, but also believes in Jesus, are they not a christian?
    Believing in Jesus does not make one a Christian, following Him does. That is, obeying Him. Satan believes in Jesus, but he is not a Christian.
    *shrugs* My world view allows for the existance of many Gods / Goddesses .. my own and others .. even yours
    So you're an agnostic. I was one, but came to know the Truth. :D


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Thaedydal said:
    I think christainity is wrong,
    for me.
    Granted, it might not suit you, but that is only of passing note. The real issue is: is Christianity true? If it is not, then you are wise to reject it. If is true, then it is the worst disaster for you to reject it.
    It may not be for you and you are certainly wrong to assume that other people feel the way you do in reguards to thier religion or spiritual beliefs.
    I would not expect, for example, the Hindu to think his religion was false. What sort of person would worships gods they believe to be false? I also expect him to regard Christianity as false. They cannot both be true.
    Out of all those you have mentioned I only think the Atheists are wrong,
    I believe in my Gods and that there are other gods out there that are not mine and thier followers have to find and honour the right way to worship thier own gods and I will strive to follow my mine
    That's OK for those whose religion holds to many gods - like Hinduism. But all the monotheist religions must believe all other religions are false, to be logical at all. And so must you - Christianity, Islam, Judaism cannot be true if your religion is true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    wolfsbane wrote:
    Believing in Jesus does not make one a Christian, following Him does. That is, obeying Him. Satan believes in Jesus, but he is not a Christian.

    Possibly a poor choice of words on my part. I meant following.
    wolfsbane wrote:
    So you're an agnostic. I was one, but came to know the Truth. :D

    Nope, heathen. Asatruar, or norse pagan if thats easier for you to recognise. You have your truth, I have mine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    wolfsbane wrote:
    That's OK for those whose religion holds to many gods - like Hinduism. But all the monotheist religions must believe all other religions are false, to be logical at all. And so must you - Christianity, Islam, Judaism cannot be true if your religion is true.

    My religion has many gods I am a pagan, tis one of the reason I mod the paganism forum :)

    You turth is not my truth but I respect you and your life and belief not to try tell or convience you that your truth is wrong for you and you should have mine.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Thaedydal wrote:
    My religion has many gods I am a pagan, tis one of the reason I mod the paganism forum :)

    You turth is not my truth but I respect you and your life and belief not to try tell or convience you that your truth is wrong for you and you should have mine.
    Hmmm. it seems we have a different definition of 'truth'. I hold truth to be that which is the sole reality concerning something, in line with http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth

    You seem to define it a merely what one thinks is factual, even if it is not. A better word for this woud be 'belief'.

    I seek to convince others of the truth I have found about God, that they too may know the joy of sins forgiven and peace with the one true God. Others may think it is only my belief and not the truth, but that something God must change. He must convince them of the truth that I tell them. He did it with me and all Christians, and then commissioned us to go and tell others. :):):)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    wolfsbane wrote:
    I seek to convince others of the truth I have found about God, that they too may know the joy of sins forgiven and peace with the one true God. Others may think it is only my belief and not the truth, but that something God must change. He must convince them of the truth that I tell them. He did it with me and all Christians, and then commissioned us to go and tell others.

    Well just becareful you do not go against the charter and end up being banned.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=244794


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Thaedydal, can you give us some examples of your gods? What leads you to believe in these gods 'of this land'? Is there evidence to support them?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    wolfsbane wrote:
    Hmmm. it seems we have a different definition of 'truth'. I hold truth to be that which is the sole reality concerning something, in line with http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/truth

    You seem to define it a merely what one thinks is factual, even if it is not. A better word for this woud be 'belief'.

    I seek to convince others of the truth I have found about God, that they too may know the joy of sins forgiven and peace with the one true God. Others may think it is only my belief and not the truth, but that something God must change. He must convince them of the truth that I tell them. He did it with me and all Christians, and then commissioned us to go and tell others. :):):)
    It's your belief in god, wolfsbane, not a fact. Trying to pretend otherwise isn't going to make it any more true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 30 Suebh


    I was raised as Roman Catholic but even as a child I questioned why the priest on the pulpit would say nasty things about people of other religions. I remember one time going to mass for personal solace and wanted to stand up and shout at the priest who was saying if we see a person of another religion to either cross the street or tell them they are sinners!!! :eek: I looked around at all the people in the church thinking 'is no one going to say anything? does no one see that is sooo wrong?' I left the church that day and did not go back again, except for family, e.g. funerals weddings etc. I left the church and questioned my belief in this God who says such awful things. I love going into an empty church, I love the energy and calmness. I believe in a God, a higher power, a source, I dont care what people call it. All religions are man made, a self belief or creed is experience based. Religion is about power and not of empowerment. I respect all religions and peoples beliefs as that is where they are at at this moment, who am I to say one is right and one is wrong. I know what is good for me. If I were to class myself as anything now it would be a Spiritualist. Someone who believes (and has seen proof) of a higher power, someone who believes in freewill, personal choices and personal responsibility, someone who believes in helping others but to not forget that I too need help.
    Well thats where I am now, and now is where I am at :)

    Sue


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    DaveMcG wrote:
    Thaedydal, can you give us some examples of your gods? What leads you to believe in these gods 'of this land'? Is there evidence to support them?

    I would also be curious to know who or what these 'gods of the land' are?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    Thaedydal said:
    Well just becareful you do not go against the charter and end up being banned.
    I assume you refer to the specific No proselytising. Anyone trying to convert anyone to anything will be immediately banned.

    I will seek to respect that condition on this forum. I was speaking more with the main forum I am involved with in mind - the Christianity forum. There I wrestle with folk of many faiths and none.

    But you will appreciate my difficulty here, in that I am answering the thread topic What is your religion and why is it the right one? Trying to prove my religion is the right one necessarily involves the claim that all others are wrong. This thread is not really just about describing our own religions or asking about others.

    Just let me know if I don't get the balance right. Thanks.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    bluewolf said:
    It's your belief in god, wolfsbane, not a fact. Trying to pretend otherwise isn't going to make it any more true.
    Definition of Fact - something known to be true.

    An example: you may or may not have a bump on the end of your nose. As I have know idea about your identity, I can't know either way. If you say you have, I can say that is your belief, not a fact. The reality is (if you are telling me the truth), you do have a bump. For you it is both a belief and a fact. To me is remains only your belief.

    So with my God. You obviously have not known Him, so you can say my belief in Him is just that - a belief, not a fact. But having known Him, I can say He is a fact.

    Moving away from the subjective, you therefore cannot say my God is not an objective fact. You can only plead ignorance. The best you can say is, He is not a subjective fact to you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    wolfsbane wrote:
    Definition of Fact - something known to be true.

    And observable to be true by anyone, as often as you like (depending on duration of phenomenon).
    wolfsbane wrote:
    An example: you may or may not have a bump on the end of your nose. As I have know idea about your identity, I can't know either way. If you say you have, I can say that is your belief, not a fact. The reality is (if you are telling me the truth), you do have a bump. For you it is both a belief and a fact. To me is remains only your belief.

    So with my God. You obviously have not known Him, so you can say my belief in Him is just that - a belief, not a fact. But having known Him, I can say He is a fact.

    Actually, you can't. To take another example - you might believe you have an invisible bump on the end of your nose, but not in fact have one as far as anyone else can see. Your experience of your bump is subjective - it is, to you, both a belief and a fact. However, it is not a fact,and cannot be a fact, because it is not verifiable by anyone else.

    There are people who believe that it is factually true that the Earth is flat, or that ghosts are real. We know these people can at best be telling us a subjective truth - at worst they are mendacious or deluded. As far as they are concerned, their truth is objective - and this is confirmed for them by their fellow believers. Does that make it true? It does not - nor does your experience of God count for anything, unless it can be objectively verified, which history has proven it cannot.

    Even if you were to say "there are so many others of like mind that it is more likely that we are right" - you would know that not to be the case, since the majority of people in the world are not Christians, let alone Christians of your particular persuasion.

    Your "fact", then, is neither objectively nor democratically verifiable. It is not a fact, it is a belief, or a subjective truth.
    wolfsbane wrote:
    Moving away from the subjective, you therefore cannot say my God is not an objective fact. You can only plead ignorance. The best you can say is, He is not a subjective fact to you.

    Exactly wrong. That you have something that you consider to be "experience of God" is the objective fact. However, your interpretation of your "experience of God" is just that - interpretation. Since your experience of God is uniquely personal to you (your claim) it can never be an objective fact, because you are not repeatable, and your experiences are neither capable of being experienced nor transmissible except through your interpretive faculties.

    as ever,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    wolfsbane please read posts 19 and 23 of this thread.
    DaveMcG wrote:
    Thaedydal, can you give us some examples of your gods? What leads you to believe in these gods 'of this land'? Is there evidence to support them?


    My interactions with them is all that I needed in the end to believe and act in thier service.

    If you are intresting in learning more then take the time to do some research :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I thought the purpose of this thread was for people to explain and question each others' beliefs... Saying you believe in 'gods of the land' doesn't give me much of an insight, nor does google.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The gods of this land ie Ireland, silly.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Not really engaging with this thread idea, are we Thaedydal? :o:p


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    DaveMcGstop being spamy and pedantic.

    My connection with deity is a personal thing esp my patron diety.
    I have already stated that my bliefs are pagan.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I'm not being pedantic, I'm trying to get you to tell me more about your beliefs so that I can better understand them and possibly challenge them! As was the intention of the thread!

    Forget it, I'll stop.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    Thaedydal, I think DaveMcG was asking you a pretty reasonable question.

    The idea of the thread was to explain and question each others beliefs, share different perspectives etc., yet you have not really played the game by offering nothing more than vague and obscure references to 'gods of the land'.

    You can appreciate that that doesn't really give anyone much insight. You could say 'look it up and do some research' but there are some problems with that. From what I've looked up, wicca and paganism in general seems pretty diverse and very loosely defined, so even a thorough researching of the subject would still not tell us which parts are relevant to you, in other words what is your own personal viewpoint.

    You also claim that you have somehow interacted with these gods yet you offer no insight at all into what that actually means for you. You are open to the criticism of deliberate vagueness.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    aidan24326 wrote:
    The idea of the thread was to explain and question each others beliefs, share different perspectives etc., yet you have not really played the game by offering nothing more than vague and obscure references to 'gods of the land'.

    I would have to disagree, Thad stated her stance very clearly when she said "My connection with deity is a personal thing esp my patron Deity." This is common to many of the older beliefs where one does not talk about the deity as it is a very personal relationship.
    What I would like to know is does a pagan practitioner select their patron Deity from a common pantheon of Deities, or does the deity select the practitioner. Also, once one has a patron Deity, does one focus and work with only that Deity or do you still include all the others in you practice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    Asiaprod wrote:
    What I would like to know is does a pagan practitioner select their patron Deity from a common pantheon of Deities, or does the deity select the practitioner.

    I suspect there is a bit of each in it. As I started to learn about asatru I had a number of incidents that pointed me towards a particular God. His nature and mine are very well suited, and after a while I chose to dedicate myself to Him in particular.
    Asiaprod wrote:
    Also, once one has a patron Deity, does one focus and work with only that Deity or do you still include all the others in you practice.

    Well, I have worked mostly with my patron up until now. I would honour all the elder kin, but given my closer relationship with my patron, it's normally Him I'd call on when I'm performing any important work.

    I am starting to expand that out though, to try and get to know others better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Asiaprod wrote:
    I would have to disagree, Thad stated her stance very clearly when she said "My connection with deity is a personal thing esp my patron Deity." This is common to many of the older beliefs where one does not talk about the deity as it is a very personal relationship.
    What I would like to know is does a pagan practitioner select their patron Deity from a common pantheon of Deities, or does the deity select the practitioner. Also, once one has a patron Deity, does one focus and work with only that Deity or do you still include all the others in you practice.
    If she didn't want her beliefs questioned then she should have stated same clearly earlier in the thread. Now that I know same I won't ask anymore.

    I'm sure she will understand however that others may decide to not address her questions because it's slightly unfair to recieve immunity yourself but be allowed to ask questions.

    Anyways back on topic...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭hairyheretic


    DaveMcG wrote:
    I'm sure she will understand however that others may decide to not address her questions because it's slightly unfair to recieve immunity yourself but be allowed to ask questions.

    That would depend. You obviously don't see this as being such a private or personal issue. If someone was happy to discuss something you felt was private, should that stop you taking further part in the conversation?

    Chat with those willing to discuss things instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    aidan24326 wrote:
    You can appreciate that that doesn't really give anyone much insight. You could say 'look it up and do some research' but there are some problems with that. From what I've looked up, wicca and paganism in general seems pretty diverse and very loosely defined, so even a thorough researching of the subject would still not tell us which parts are relevant to you, in other words what is your own personal viewpoint.

    I take your point aidan24326,
    I am one of the mods of this forum and don't want to be seen to be pushing a pagan/wiaan agenda here,
    infact I have been accused of doing so before :(

    Much of what is seen or perieved as paganism in the main stream is infact esotric and occult practices.

    Witchcraft is not a religion or a set of beliefs it is a way to work magic be it
    sympathic, ritual, divination ect there are witches of many religions even christian ones.

    Where this fits in with my spirituality is that these are tool or skill set for me
    on my spiritual journey and I will do such things with the blessing of my Gods included. With out the interaction of deity such things are just acts of magic,
    with the inculsion and interaction of diety they become votive and sacred.

    I believe in soul journeys.
    I believe in reincarnation.
    I believe in destiny.
    I believe we have free will.
    I believe there is a devine spark in everyperson and we should honour and respect each other.
    I believe in living conciously and contastly question my actions and how they
    impact on myself those around me and my enviroment and the earth.
    I believe we make our own luck.
    I believe in living in harmony and being aware of the change of seasons and how they effect us.
    I believe we have tasks to do in each life be they big public works, or being someones parent or just being in the right place at the right time for one person when they need somone the most.
    I believe in being grounded in this life as a human person and making the most of my gifts and living the best life I can and not squandering opertunities,
    and right now I believe I need a cup of coffee. :)
    aidan24326 wrote:
    You also claim that you have somehow interacted with these gods yet you offer no insight at all into what that actually means for you. You are open to the criticism of deliberate vagueness.

    I pray to, talk with, listen to and occasionaly argue with my Gods.
    They are a very real presense in my life and it is something I am greatful for and draw comfort from, mostly.

    Anyone seriously pursuing a spiritual path has challenges and things they have to over come and the journey into these things teachs us a lot about ourselves and others. These things can be spontaneous understandings or at times it can take months, years if not life times.
    My gods can be pretty patient but I find that if I am procastining too much
    I get a kick up the arse or a harsh lesson.

    I do things for my gods out of service but never servitude.
    This can range from offerings, prayer, celebrating the Sabaths as the wheel of the year turns, answering people questions at times ( :P yes this post is one those things and I got a talking too about it from my gods ),
    being there for others on thier paths as others have been there for me what ever their personal spirituality is.
    Asiaprod wrote:
    What I would like to know is does a pagan practitioner select their patron Deity from a common pantheon of Deities, or does the deity select the practitioner.

    You don't get to choose, they choose you.
    How this comes about can be very different depending on the Deity.
    Some people will find themselve drawn to a certain Deity and will go research a lot a bout them and find a resonance there.
    Some people will find things to do with that deity popping up time and time again in thier lives.
    For some people it is an easy acceptance and the relationship builds up over time with that deity.
    For others it is a struggle as they can't see the woods or the trees or they are in denail or just not ready to accpet deity in thier lives.
    Sometimes the more they struggle the harsher the lessons get :)
    Asiaprod wrote:
    Also, once one has a patron Deity, does one focus and work with only that Deity or do you still include all the others in you practice.

    Patron Deity would be my focus but while I do not include all other gods
    there are others that I have a connection or understanding with.
    Sometimes they are the patrons of others in my life.
    sometimes they are deity I have worked with as part of lessons on my path.
    Sometimes I get loaned out like there has be negoitations between them and my patron do get things done for those other deity or so that I can learn and gain different understandings.

    While I was raised a catholic I am that no longer but I do see that deity as being vaild for others and am respectful of that deity and those set of beliefs.
    I think purposely desecrating anything, item or place which is sacred to others to be repugnant.
    My last interaction with that catholic/christain deity was to offer a prayer on the behalf of somone who is a catholic and when I was at a funeral in a church I respectfull acknowledged the presence of that deity there.

    All of what I believe and how I live my life has been something that I have worked at, questioned and worked through over the last 13 years of my life.
    It really took that long to confirm for me what it is I believe and what fits and what does not.

    I took my time an learned as much as I could about different beliefs and religions to see what else is out there.

    Questioning is part of the journey and I think it is something everyone should do and if it leads you back to the faith you were brought up in with renewed understanding and appreication then great, if it leads you else where and you find that is where your heart and soul is then that is great as well.

    This process can take a long time, esp if you find you have an aversion.
    Sometime those aversions to certain things are us not accepting what is ment for us.

    Right and I am prolly going to regret this but
    any more questions ?

    Because between this post and the perivious one
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=52239199&postcount=28
    I think I have said enough.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,247 ✭✭✭✭6th


    Thaedydal wrote:
    I believe in soul journeys.
    I believe in reincarnation.
    I believe in destiny.
    I believe we have free will.
    I believe there is a devine spark in everyperson and we should honour and respect each other.
    I believe in living conciously and contastly question my actions and how they
    impact on myself those around me and my enviroment and the earth.
    I believe we make our own luck.
    I believe in living in harmony and being aware of the change of seasons and how they effect us.
    I believe we have tasks to do in each life be they big public works, or being someones parent or just being in the right place at the right time for one person when they need somone the most.
    I believe in being grounded in this life as a human person and making the most of my gifts and living the best life I can and not squandering opertunities ...

    Big thanks for that, I had no idea how to lay out my beliefs but you did it for me ;)


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