Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

nicksinthemix · 30-04-2009 1:06am

spank_inferno wrote: »

Wont work & cant work

It will work.

1) Is there enough lithium on the planet to manufacture the millions of kilo's of battery's necessary to power Irelands fleet of cars?... I doubt it!

There is enough available lithium on the planet for 2.4 billion cars.

2) The vehicles lack the versatility to make them viable.

Last time I checked technology had the ability of moving on.

3) The cost of the switch in infrascture would be too enormous. (including garages for maintenance)

Yes. I'm sure it compares with of conventional garages.

4) Where does the electricity come from???

Personally I don't think we're ready. Where will this electricity come from? I doubt it will be from renewable sources.

So we just wait?

It's called being strategic. You imagine where you want to be and plan accordingly. It might mean doing more than one thing at a time and we do this every day (I bought food as well as cooked because I wanted dinner. I didn't give up at the empty fridge).

Powering an electric car off a power supply almost entirely fueled by burning carbon only moves the co2 problem further down the chain

Congrats on pointing that out.

What is easier to take care of:

1) chaotic mass of individually owned moving objects emitting CO2?

2) a downstream network of powerplants owned by the ESB?

It's as elementary as recognising that energy to power a car comes from somewhere.

What's more difficult to get to grips with is how to take advantage of a new market.

You can't just rip off this technology and make it for cheaper. It's why EVs haven't been ready - it takes each company years of R&D. Just look at Toyota. Who else competes for the lions share of the hybrid market? Honda. Why? Because they got started within two years of Toyota.

Years have now been put in by some companies. Lithium Ion and computerisation have been they key leavers. MIT announced that 10 minute charge times will be on the market within three years. The price of lithium is set to drop by half (it already has in recent years and all experts are saying it's got further to go).

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away. Biofuels are not an option. One hector of grain will drive a biodethonol vehicle about 22,500km (6.5l/100km). A one hector solar installation will produce enough energy to drive a plug-in vehicle 3,250,000km (16kWh/100km).

I guarentee you all, the EV market is poised to launch. The R&D stage is about to give way to the market & road testing stage. We have an opportunity to be part of that process.

Think about it, with every major car company set to release their EVs in 2011 for general sale, some are going to try and jump the gun to gain an early advantage. They'll be looking for the right place to do it and Ireland, if it has the infastructure, could provide that. Our geography means that we could be the first criss-cross a country easily in an EV. Sweden wants that title but they're version of the ESB is composed of hundreds of individual companies.

And can we all please stop thinking that everything is impossible based on the way things are right at the moment? Victory belongs to those with the vision and our nation deserves better than one decade of genuine prosperity (assuming we can call it genuine).

towel401 · 30-04-2009 1:10am

there's only enough lithium around to make around 50 million cars. unless someone finds a huge lump of it in space and a way to bring it here

Johnboy Mac · 30-04-2009 1:19am

nicksinthemix wrote: »

It will work.

There is enough available lithium on the planet for 2.4 billion cars.

Last time I checked technology had the ability of moving on.

Yes. I'm sure it compares with of conventional garages.

So we just wait?

It's called being strategic. You imagine where you want to be and plan accordingly. It might mean doing more than one thing at a time and we do this every day (I bought food as well as cooked because I wanted dinner. I didn't give up at the empty fridge).

Congrats on pointing that out.

What is easier to take care of:

1) chaotic mass of individually owned moving objects emitting CO2?

2) a downstream network of powerplants owned by the ESB?

It's as elementary as recognising that energy to power a car comes from somewhere.

What's more difficult to get to grips with is how to take advantage of a new market.

You can't just rip off this technology and make it for cheaper. It's why EVs haven't been ready - it takes each company years of R&D. Just look at Toyota. Who else competes for the lions share of the hybrid market? Honda. Why? Because they got started within two years of Toyota.

Years have now been put in by some companies. Lithium Ion and computerisation have been they key leavers. MIT announced that 10 minute charge times will be on the market within three years. The price of lithium is set to drop by half (it already has in recent years and all experts are saying it's got further to go).

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away. Biofuels are not an option. One hector of grain will drive a biodethonol vehicle about 22,500km (6.5l/100km). A one hector solar installation will produce enough energy to drive a plug-in vehicle 3,250,000km (16kWh/100km).

I guarentee you all, the EV market is poised to launch. The R&D stage is about to give way to the market & road testing stage. We have an opportunity to be part of that process.

Think about it, with every major car company set to release their EVs in 2011 for general sale, some are going to try and jump the gun to gain an early advantage. They'll be looking for the right place to do it and Ireland, if it has the infastructure, could provide that. Our geography means that we could be the first criss-cross a country easily in an EV. Sweden wants that title but they're version of the ESB is composed of hundreds of individual companies.

And can we all please stop thinking that everything is impossible based on the way things are right at the moment? Victory belongs to those with the vision and our nation deserves better than one decade of genuine prosperity (assuming we can call it genuine).

Extremely well written. Very impressed.

robtri · 30-04-2009 8:20am

towel401 wrote: »

there's only enough lithium around to make around 50 million cars. unless someone finds a huge lump of it in space and a way to bring it here

that should be enough till they develop the next level of battery.. or ultra capacitor's

Mr Benevolent · 30-04-2009 9:11am

Yup, ultracapacitors and flywheels are the way to go. Hydrogen ain't viable for the moment.

Zube · 30-04-2009 10:24am

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away.

California is a little ahead of Ireland, but not 40 years, and they have Hydrogen cars today.

Think about it, with every major car company set to release their EVs in 2011 for general sale, some are going to try and jump the gun to gain an early advantage. They'll be looking for the right place to do it and Ireland, if it has the infastructure, could provide that.

Hooray! Let's beta test a bunch of crappy EV prototypes!

You first.

Gatster · 30-04-2009 1:08pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Our geography means that we could be the first criss-cross a country easily in an EV.

You may not have noticed but 'Our geography' somehow means we still don't have a 'proper' motorway infrastructure, and they've had much more than 10 years to sort that out, so good luck with getting your electric infrastructure installed.

For the level of acceptance being discussed here, it has to be as (relatively) cheap as motoring is now, if there is no real incentive or the cost is prohibitive, people won't do it. As much as I really love petrol engines things do have to change. I'm all for this, I really am, I just don't think it's realistic.

Add to this the fact that on most main roads there are 'Services' signs, that don't actually lead to services (or any further signage once you come off the main road), so they'll be a lot of people looking for 'D' batteries just off the M1...:D

nicksinthemix · 30-04-2009 1:26pm

Zube wrote: »

California is a little ahead of Ireland, but not 40 years, and they have Hydrogen cars today.

Hooray! Let's beta test a bunch of crappy EV prototypes!

You first.

Can any californian go into an auto shop and buy a hydrogen car? Will they be able to in three years?

How long will it take them to develop an infrastructure which involes compressed hydrogen? Nobody has any real clue how this is going to be done. Compare that to the numerous private companies who are planning to rool out fast-charge stations (Ireland is one location and they're talking about 12 month time frames now) and likes of MIT who say that 10 miniute charge times are 3 years away from commercial availability.

It's up to us individualy to assume that any new product is ****e. Besides, the prototype stage is over. We're talking about proper production lines from now on. The stakes are too high for this to fail. The technology is ready and whoever gets it right wins BIG.

There are advantages to driving electric cars and if petrol gets any more expensive one argument in particular is going to stand out. I wouln'd mind being one of the first to skip a 5k annual price tag on running a petrol car. €2 at the pumps will make it at least that.

dvpower · 30-04-2009 1:51pm

towel401 wrote: »

there's only enough lithium around to make around 50 million cars. unless someone finds a huge lump of it in space and a way to bring it here

It seems that electric cars can only be a transition technology until hydrogen cars become viable.

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

Gatster · 30-04-2009 1:52pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Can any californian go into an auto shop and buy a hydrogen car? Will they be able to in three years?

How long will it take them to develop an infrastructure which involes compressed hydrogen? Nobody has any real clue how this is going to be done.

Not strictly true, you can lease a Clarity and the Hydrogen infractructure is already there of a fashion (map, website) so someone knows.

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Compare that to the numerous private companies who are planning to rool out fast-charge stations (Ireland is one location and they're talking about 12 month time frames now)

Who are these companies?

nicksinthemix · 01-05-2009 11:37am

Gatster wrote: »

Who are these companies?

ESB & EVOasis. We can all be sceptical of ESB but they're getting more and more convincing on this one. They seem to understand that you don't wait to match demand on this kind of thing.

EVOasis have recently been quite impressed with the political will here thanks to Simon Covney.

Say what you will but few people seem to understand the level of involvement the ESB is playing in European standardisation talks. They have their finger firmly in the pie and politicians are talking more and more about EVs.

Now, I do wonder why the govenrment won't move to directly incentivise like Norway or France have. At worst this is all hot air (in which case, some state bodies are going to have wasted a lot of time). At best, they're looking for a really bold move, something like Better PLace but without the monopoly.

BTW, there's a huge difference between concept and production cars. Hydrogen cars are concept cars and I do not know of any plans to mass rpoduce within the next five years. It's taken about 25 years of concept EVs to get this far. Now there are over 70 EV startups looking to go into full production within 2 years (some earlier). Mitsubishi will be one of the first big companies to go into production and we're talking about less than 2 years. Nissan-Renault are similar. GM will try and pioneer PHEVs on the production line (no exactly in good shape though). This is genuine activity and it's clear that the technology is ready. I don't see the same movement with the hydrogen car. It's more likely that that is the beginning of their concept stage and it will probably be 2030 before it reaches the point that Evs are at now.

Zube · 01-05-2009 12:12pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

BTW, there's a huge difference between concept and production cars.

True. Care to name these production cars you're talking about?

The only one I know of is the Opel Ampera, optimistically due to be on sale in 2010 for a 2011 launch. The Ampera is a plug-in hybrid.

Mitsubishi has shown various MiEV prototypes, but a production car will be at least 2011. That'll be a 100 mile range pure EV mini, a niche product at best.

Renault-Nissan have made a lot of noise about a 2011 car, but I'd expect to see more tangible results by now if they are going to meet that date. They are also talking about a swappable battery pack because charge times are so long. This would be a nightmare.

Gatster · 01-05-2009 12:41pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

They seem to understand that you don't wait to match demand on this kind of thing.

Had a look on the Evoasis website and there's nothing about a tie-in with ESB, just a mention of job creation, but it doesn't have anything about EV infrastructure here. The major problem with what you're saying is that currently, and for the immediate future, there is no real demand for EV's

It's all well and good banging on about 10 minute charges times, but this presumes that people have bought EV's with compatible technology which, if similar to most 'new' technologies, will be even more expensive than the current crop of EV's. Prices will literally have to tumble for any of this to become a reality, and genuine (ie. proven in real-world testing) 200+ mile range has to be the norm.

I mean, look at this, it's just ridiculous (comparative price, range)

Zube · 01-05-2009 1:22pm

Gatster wrote: »

I mean, look at this, it's just ridiculous

Well yes, but that's a converted C1, not a purpose build EV. I mean, it still has a 5 speed box, they just jam it in 3rd!!

This is rather illuminating though:

If you do venture outside the city, then the top speed of 60mph could be a frustrating limitation, but that’s a compromise that most buyers accept when they opt for Watts over horses.

Translation: everyone knows EVs are crap. Until EVs actually compete with other cars on level terms, they aren't going to sell in any numbers.

peasant · 01-05-2009 1:41pm

If you do venture outside the city, then the top speed of 60mph could be a frustrating limitation, but that’s a compromise that most buyers accept when they opt for Watts over horses.

If you use this vehicle in your standard rush hour 20-30km commute, you'd be lucky to reach 100 km'h anyway. So that point is not as important as it sounds

Zube · 01-05-2009 1:48pm

peasant wrote: »

If you use this vehicle in your standard rush hour 20-30km commute, you'd be lucky to reach 100 km'h anyway. So that point is not as important as it sounds

In practice, most people who commute alone in city traffic still buy cars capable of carrying 4 adults across the country, just in case they feel like it. Hardly anyone says "I really only need a Smart car for that trip".

Cosmo K · 01-05-2009 2:54pm

How do you acyually service an EV? Do you still have to change oil+filter every so often? Do they still have a clutch that needs changing after 150k mls? Does the electric motor need much maintenance, brushes etc?

nicksinthemix · 01-05-2009 3:35pm

Cosmo K wrote: »

How do you acyually service an EV? Do you still have to change oil+filter every so often? Do they still have a clutch that needs changing after 150k mls? Does the electric motor need much maintenance, brushes etc?

AC Induction motors are frictionless and electric cars tend to contain about one tenth the amount of moving parts of a conventonal car. Brakepads and tyres have to be serviced but there are no spark plugs etc.

The real issue is the battery life. It has to be serviced, diagnosed and after about three years, if its performance is starting to look doubtful, it will have to be changed. The cost can be hefty but incrementd over 3 years and compared to servicing and fuel costs it can still work out very well.

In practice, most people who commute...

Therein lies the most important aspect of a lot of the more negative thinking on EVs that goes on nowadays. Everyone drives a conventional car, right? So since an EV cant compare on certain aspects then nobody wants one?

People are more different than you might think. Running costs on fuel might speed up the process significantly but as the technology improves, more people will be brought into the fold.

What I've been saying all along is that we're at a unique point right now and there is an opportnity. It means looking ahead. Yes, something like a G-Wiz is a specialised product, but it has its benifits. Some people might think those benifits are irradicated by the limitations. But who is to say that everyone thinks that way?

Once again, we tend not to be so black & white in most areas of life. We drink knowing there's good and there's bad. T-totalers obviously think the ill-effects of booze completely irradicate the good parts. But are the rest of us in denial, or are we just prepared to live with the two sides of the same coin?

The information on EV startups is all out there. The stuff on EVoasis is not but they were in Dublin this week. An Irish delegation visited them in San Diago recently. Senan McGrath of ESB gave a lecture recently suggesting that it was time to really push ahead with the building of infrastructure.

peasant · 01-05-2009 4:01pm

Zube wrote: »

In practice, most people who commute alone in city traffic still buy cars capable of carrying 4 adults across the country, just in case they feel like it. Hardly anyone says "I really only need a Smart car for that trip".

Let's face it, most people (myself included) buy cars that are at least three sizes too big for their actual average needs ...be that in terms of power and/or size.

We do that simply because we can (afford to) do so.

When I was a kid, we went on holidays, driving 4000 km through Scandinavia with a small folding caravan in tow ...with a 60 bhp Opel Kadett Caravan. There were no problems whatsoever.

These days, people wouldn't consider doing this trip in anything less than a Landcruiser

Cheap oil and ever cheaper (relative to size and power) cars have enabled us to motor way above our needs and have some fun while doing so.

Well, I guess ...to an extent the fun is over / will be over shortly and we will have to become a bit more realistic again and drive what we need rather than want.

MODEDIT: peasant permabanned from motoring for spoiling the fun

Mr Benevolent · 01-05-2009 4:39pm

That said, some electric cars will be more fun. Linear torque, no gears, it'll be all about handling. No turbos failing, oil changes etc etc.

So they'll be easier and more fun.

galwaytt · 01-05-2009 5:22pm

Well, I've just spent 2 days at the Energy Show, and saw all the current electric offerings.

First, commercial. Unless you're in the flower business, you can forget the small stuff, you'll need the transit. In which case, you'll need to be in the Cash-in-Transit (sic

) business.........'cos it's an extra 40k over a conventional one.

Ditto the rigid truck. Lovely. But 96k instead of 35k ? Ok, if you're hauling gold bullion, I guess, but f-all, else.

Dublin bus: 359k ??? This, for a company that just let 120 people go ?

Even the Vextrix electric scooter - which I really, really like, btw, is useless to me - it wouldn't get me to/from Galway on one charge. - Range of 20-30miles, and 9k to buy ? Sorry, but my Aprilia Atlantic 500 or Suzuki Burgman 400 beats it hands down.........

The cars ranged from 11-17k. OK for two, MIEV nicely finished, but at twice the price of a Yaris ?

And finally, the question that nobody wanted to answer: how many times can you charge the batteries ? Answer, for most, was 500 cycles. So, given most commuting in this country, you will be charging it at least every second day, which means a full set of batteries every........1.4 years. Let's round it to 2.

I didn't get the price on the batteries, but the ones for the Priiiii parked beside them cost..........6k.

No matter which way you look at it - it does not add up - at those prices. I didn't even factor in the too-high price of electricity yet.....

If they were half that price, even with that technology, it would be viable, battery use included.

Zube · 01-05-2009 5:37pm

peasant wrote: »

Well, I guess ...to an extent the fun is over / will be over shortly and we will have to become a bit more realistic again and drive what we need rather than want.

No, I think that by the time we have to use electric cars, there will be electric cars that we would buy instead of current (:pac:) model petrol cars.

Today's electrified Noddy cars are not a realistic option. The only way we'll ever drive them is if some idiots elect a Green government that forces us.

Uh-oh.:(

Zube · 01-05-2009 5:53pm

nicksinthemix wrote: »

AYes, something like a G-Wiz is a specialised product, but it has its benifits. Some people might think those benifits are irradicated by the limitations. But who is to say that everyone thinks that way?

Nothing is stopping G-Wiz selling a million units in Ireland, except that the G-Wiz is a useless mickey-mouse deathtrap on wheels.

The Tesla is a real car, but it's a rich man's toy, an alternative to a Porsche. When someone makes an electric alternative to a Tiida, well hooray. Not that I'll buy one, but even one less Tiida on the road is good news.

murpheous81 · 02-05-2009 12:15am

With that shower of langers in government, how will they screw over those who do invest in a tesla or the honda hybrid(sorry - don't no the name)?

Will they tax the tyres for the car, increase energy bills, put a duty on them

If somebody decides to import one from the UK, who much or what method will they use to stiff us.

02-05-2009 11:00am

nicksinthemix wrote: »

Hydrogen cars are 40 years away. Biofuels are not an option. One hector of grain will drive a biodethonol vehicle about 22,500km (6.5l/100km). A one hector solar installation will produce enough energy to drive a plug-in vehicle 3,250,000km (16kWh/100km).

Links please!
You say hydrogen cars are 40 yrs away? Do you mean for the masses?

only 15,000 square miles could produce enough algae to meet all of the USA's ground transportation needs. Transportation accounts for 67% of US oil consumption according to the Atlantic Monthly, July/August 2005. We'll say more about the 15,000 square mile number below. If all of this land were in one rectangular piece, it would be 120 miles by 125 miles—about 1/7th of the area of the state of Colorado

Gallons of Oil per Acre per Year

Corn
18

Soybeans
48

Safflower
83

Sunflower
102

Rapeseed
127

Oil Palm
635

Micro Algae
5000-15000

http://www.oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

towel401 · 04-05-2009 10:35pm

dvpower wrote: »

It seems that electric cars can only be a transition technology until hydrogen cars become viable.

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

these ultra capacitor yokes show a lot of promise.. some slightly better nanotech and we`re in business

hydrogen has its uses but for now the fuel cells wear down as fast as a lithium battery

even that honda clarity thing uses a lithium ion battery as a buffer.

cianof · 29-06-2009 12:34am

Would you vote for all electric cars in Ireland?

I don't think the government is proposing that. I think they are trying to promote the use of electric cars in the country so as to increase to overall percentage of electric cars on the roads.

Would it be better to go the way of Honda and hydrogen?

The Honda FCX Clarity is an electric car.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/how-fcx-works.aspx

The question is whether hydrogen is a suitable fuel for generating electricity.
That's determined by the grid to motor efficiency. Currently hydrogen is not very efficient in comparison to plugin electric vehicles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Efficiency_as_an_automotive_fuel

That might change if a more efficient method of producing hydrogen is discovered.

kleefarr · 09-07-2009 8:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Links please!
You say hydrogen cars are 40 yrs away? Do you mean for the masses?

http://www.oakhavenpc.org/cultivating_algae.htm

Wow. We'd only need about 5Ksq then.

Good to see the votes slowly going up.

kodi · 17-07-2009 11:27am

Hi everyone. I'm usually just lurking around, but decided to add small situation update.

I was testing some battery solutions (still have NDAs in place, so don't ask for details). In summary - there are few companies in the world that are manufacturing high performance batteries. In 2006 I got some cells to be tested from US - they were recharged in 15 minutes, but energy density wasn't so impressive (roughly 60% of conventional Li-Ion batteries). In 2008 I finished testing cells that can be recharged under 10 minutes, and there was a 6% loss of capacity after 10000 (ten thousand) charge/discharge cycles. Did I mention they are mass produced now?

The same goes for ultracaps - I'm just holding in my hand 27F capacitor that has a size of conventional 1000uF/16V.

I just hope to get a possibility to test new Li-S cells when they hit the testing stage (current results of 1.3Ah/g in cathode are verry promising). Current target is to break the barrier of 2kWh/kg of cell.

So it's not a matter of technology not available. I'm strongly after EVs, but only the good designed ones. For example:

- why to mount just one engine as in ICE car? Simpler thing is to just mount the engine into the wheel - like Flightlink "pancake" engine. It eliminates the need of clutch, gearbox and brakes.
- who said that battery has to be stored only in one place? current cells are safe when damaged, so they can be spreaded and built into car structure giving additional levels of protection (and adding to the range as well)

there are only two problems left:
- price
- recharge method

For the first one - sorry - there has to be mass demand for it and support from governments. As one of my friends that works in the cell production factory said - price can be very attractive if correct order will be made.

Second - 55kWh is the amount of energy, that is roughly enough to drive for 500km. To recharge 55kWh of energy in 15 minutes you need the 230kW power supply. Pretty big figure? Install ultracaps at the filling station and your done!

(sorry for my English...)

kleefarr · 17-07-2009 1:27pm

Very interesting Kodi, thanks.

But what about the production of the electricity in the first place? Surely this has to be addressed before mass EV starts as the benefits of using EVs wouldn't be that great would they.

A large algae farm would produce a fair amount of Hydrogen, as pointed out by a previous poster. This seems a more attractive solution does it not?

(Don't worry about your English, it was fine, we have all seen worse.)

From Wikipedia...

"It would take an algae farm the size of the state of Texas to produce enough hydrogen to supply the energy needs of the whole world."

Ireland to go down the Electric car route?

Comments