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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    No, he should go as soon as possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    I feel that anyone who was in anyway involved either by practice or knowledge needs to go but also needs to face a criminal investigation. & if that means every priest in the nation so be it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭paperclip2


    He needs to go. His credibility re child protection is gone and his moral authority is far too damaged. Anything he achieves in the future will always be overshadowed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    lucy2010 wrote: »
    I feel that anyone who was in anyway involved either by practice or knowledge needs to go but also needs to face a criminal investigation. & if that means every priest in the nation so be it.
    This is an interesting point. In the UK I believe it is a criminal offence not to report child abuse you are aware of. The laws in Ireland are often very similar to those in the UK, I wonder if there is such an offence?

    Presumably, if there was, there are a fairly large number of church officials guilty of this offence. Added to that, there are also like to be a number of government and ex-government officials who had the same knowledge. So, if such an offence does exist why are they not being prosecuted?

    As a separate issue I would expect there should be charges also brought against the gardai that were aware of the abuse but chose to let the church deal with it. I would like to think that this is also illegal.

    MrP


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    MrPudding wrote: »
    This is an interesting point. In the UK I believe it is a criminal offence not to report child abuse you are aware of. The laws in Ireland are often very similar to those in the UK, I wonder if there is such an offence?

    AFAIK these laws are relatively modern and do not apply retrospectively.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    Why not leave him there and the rest of ye leave?

    Im not being silly here, but why would anyone want anything to do with his church


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    delop wrote: »
    Why not leave him there and the rest of ye leave?
    Im not being silly here, but why would anyone want anything to do with his church

    (a) The thread title refers to Catholics, are you Catholic..or even
    Christian?

    (b) If you don't have anything constructive to add there are plenty of threads on After Hours more suited to you.

    (c) It's not "his church" ;)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Yes: depending on the judgement of any civil/criminal court case pending against him.
    My understanding is that in that vast majority of laws, these are non-retrospective unless expressly legislated as such.


  • Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭delop


    prinz wrote: »
    (a) The thread title refers to Catholics, are you Catholic..or even
    Christian?

    (b) If you don't have anything constructive to add there are plenty of threads on After Hours more suited to you.

    (c) It's not "his church" ;)

    I'm an Irish citizen, and if you read the preamble of our constitution you would know I don't have much choice

    How is what i said not constructive?

    Is he not the head of the church in Ireland? Im sure he feels responsible for it, far more than the children of Ireland or the law of the land it seems


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    I hope people don't mind a non-Catholic view on this.
    MrPudding wrote: »
    This is an interesting point. In the UK I believe it is a criminal offence not to report child abuse you are aware of. The laws in Ireland are often very similar to those in the UK, I wonder if there is such an offence?

    Nowadays, yes, it is. Back in the 70's I don't think it was.

    I think somebody needs to erect a confession booth at the Papal cross. A symbol where the Church can enter on one side to confess its corporate sin to God who is waiting patiently with anger and forgiveness on the other. IMO, the RCC is not doing nearly enough and in defending past mistakes they are sewing the seeds of their own rapid demise.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    delop wrote: »
    I'm an Irish citizen, and if you read the preamble of our constitution you would know I don't have much choice..

    There are Irish citizens who are non-Christians. If you knew the Constitution you would know that the Preamble is not on par with the rest of the document with regard to Constitutional law.
    delop wrote: »
    How is what i said not constructive?

    Then thread is in relation to the position of the primate, not the position of ourselves or any other Catholics.
    delop wrote: »
    Is he not the head of the church in Ireland? Im sure he feels responsible for it, far more than the children of Ireland or the law of the land it seems

    Yes, but the RCC goes beyond Ireland. Being a Catholic has little if anything to do with who the Cardinal in Ireland is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    prinz wrote: »
    (a) The thread title refers to Catholics, are you Catholic..or even
    Christian?

    (b) If you don't have anything constructive to add there are plenty of threads on After Hours more suited to you.

    (c) It's not "his church" ;)
    Every time you put money in the collection plate you are funding an institute that places itself one step above the law of the land.

    I would not give them one penny until such time as these men step down off their high horses and face the music just like every other ciitizen of the country.

    Our Lord hit the nail on the head when he described the institutionalised clerics of the past. Very little has changed with the clerics of today.

    "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness". Matthew 23vs27

    "Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity." Matthew23vs28


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    I would not give them one penny until such time as these men step down off their high horses and face the music just like every other ciitizen of the country.

    Good for you, either would I.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    The Cardinal is not resigning. Get used to it. Go find another anti-Catholic hobby horse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Outrage wrote: »
    The Cardinal is not resigning. Get used to it. Go find another anti-Catholic hobby horse.

    The man should be prosecuted, let alone this bloody moral flim flaming.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,096 ✭✭✭--amadeus--


    Manach wrote: »
    Yes: depending on the judgement of any civil/criminal court case pending against him.
    My understanding is that in that vast majority of laws, these are non-retrospective unless expressly legislated as such.

    This I find interesting. The entire defence of this man has rested on the legality of his not going to teh civil authorities.

    But what about teh morality of not going to the authorities? And how can you accept moral guidance from a man who (by inaction) facilitated a child rapist?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    The man should be prosecuted, let alone this bloody moral flim flaming.

    Why are you so enraged? You come across as someone who'd have no problem going on an angry mob march complete with torches.

    The good Cardinal is not resigning. Like I said: get used to it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 774 ✭✭✭lucy2010


    From a legal point of view can he be charged with anything ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Outrage wrote: »

    The good Cardinal is not resigning. Like I said: get used to it.

    Only time will tell. Gormely is right - this is something that Brady must confront in moments of reflection.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    I am not in a position to decide one way or the other. But I will say this: the man did what he thought was right at the time. He had no decision-making powers at that time. He passed the information to his bishop, who then assumed responsibility. That is what he says and I take him at his word.

    It's very easy to look back with the benefit of hindsight. We all make mistakes. I am sure the Cardinal now looks back and wishes he had done things differently. I think all of us can look back and do that. None of us are perfect.

    Some balanced and fair background reading here (concerning the Pope):

    http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=624

    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/pope_benedict_transferred_paedophile/

    The media is gunning for him, and the Pope. Their interest goes beyond any desire for 'justice' - they HATE the Catholic Church and everything we stand for. Christ Himself said this would be so ('If the world hate you, know ye, that it hath hated me before you.').

    Unfortunately, the Church has given the world the stick it is now using.

    If we allow ourselves to be bullied like this, it's a very slippery slope. The rabid anti-Christians will bay and hound for more blood until they destroy us, if that were possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    The rabid anti-Christians will bay and hound for more blood until they destroy us, if that were possible.

    The church is doing a pretty good job of that itself with all the scandals and coverups and lies and murder and raping


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 436 ✭✭Ultravid


    krudler wrote: »
    The church is doing a pretty good job of that itself with all the scandals and coverups and lies and murder and raping

    Some people are predicting that the Church is in for a rough time, and maybe it is. But the Church will survive because the Lord will make sure it survives. One of the greatest comeback lines in history was uttered two hundred years ago. As his armies were swallowing up the countries of Europe, French emperor Napoleon is reported to have said to Church officials, "Je détruirai votre église" ("I will destroy your Church")." When informed of the emperor's words, Ercole Cardinal Consalvi, one of the great statesmen of the papal court, replied,
    "He will never succeed. We have not managed to do it ourselves!"
    If bad popes, immoral priests, and countless sinners in the Church hadn't succeeded in destroying the Church from within, Cardinal Consalvi was saying, how did Napoleon think he was going to do it from without?

    A Crisis of Saints
    http://www.catholic.com/library/A_Crisis_of_Saints.asp


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    The issue is morally disgusting. Just because he didn't HAVE TO, he didn't. This is child sexual abuse - there is nothing more serious. The lax attitude toward it will surely turn many away.

    And to be honest, I don't blame anyone for leaving the church formally as a result. Yes, it happened in the past, but with a chance to make amends he refuses to step aside. He is turning his personal mistakes into he mistakes of the church.

    Look at willy o dea, a man who made a stupid personal mistake, but knew that it could destroy the party had he not stepped down. This is a million times worse than claiming someone ran a brothel, it is an unforgivable act and people are trying to defend him, for whatever reason.

    He has to go. If he church wants o save any face, if it wants to appear like it cares about children he has to go. For the sake of those who were abused by that piece of scum, he has to go. Imagie their frustration & hurt. Those that have not committed suicide.

    If the church support him, they support child rape in he past and they do not care about their flock it's as simple as that.

    What would Jesus say if he returned today?!?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    Tigger wrote: »
    serious question as i was arguing this with a mate and he says there is no way people support his position but i honestly believe that many people can see his side.
    no way would i support him
    he should be charged with accessory to all these crimes that were brought to his attention over the years
    abusing children telling them to keep quiet about a crime comitted on them, how low can you go


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    I'm no longer a catholic. I left the RC church a long time ago when I was a teenager and couldn't stomach the hypocrisy, the lies and the greed displayed by the church.

    What saddens me is that there are good people in the church but their voices are silenced by a church that is only interested in power, control and profit.

    Nevermind resignations, there should be prosecutions by the DPP for the actions of clerics over the past god knows how many years.

    However, with the current church/state relationship that will never happen in Ireland. The corruption is too endemic, too deeply engrained. So long as there are apologists for paedophiles and rapists nothing will be done to pursue those responsible.

    SD


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    The man should be prosecuted, let alone this bloody moral flim flaming.

    Unlikely he will be prosecuted for anything. He hasn't as far as I'm aware technically/legally committed a crime.(a crime against humanity is another issue)
    But what about teh morality of not going to the authorities? And how can you accept moral guidance from a man who (by inaction) facilitated a child rapist?

    You can't, he's got to go.
    lucy2010 wrote: »
    From a legal point of view can he be charged with anything ?

    Not so far.
    mehfesto wrote: »
    The issue is morally disgusting. Just because he didn't HAVE TO, he didn't. This is child sexual abuse - there is nothing more serious. The lax attitude toward it will surely turn many away.

    It will turn many away from him, if it turns people away from God then he has a lot to answer for. For many people their faith is in crisis, and I hold people like the cardinal to blame.:mad:

    mehfesto wrote: »
    What would Jesus say if he returned today?!?

    I have a fair idea that I wouldn't want to be around :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 595 ✭✭✭the_dark_side


    mehfesto wrote: »

    What would Jesus say if he returned today?!?

    how can I go about getting a website up


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 172 ✭✭Outrage


    The good Cardinal is not resigning. Get used to it. Pretty much everyone at Mass in Armagh cathedral this morning supports the man.

    Lá Fhéile Pádraig Sona Daoibh.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    If I may comment (as a non-Catholic):
    As far as I can see, Brady is one of the better clerics today, one who is trying to clean-up the RCC's act regards sexual abuse. But he did fail in the 70's, fail to give more concern for the then and future victims than he did for the Church's authority.

    The dilemma for the RCC now is if they punish those who failed back then, who among the higher clergy would survive? Does anyone think any bishop, archbishop, cardinal or pope did not encounter similar instances and themselves acted just as Brady did? That paedo-priests were/are a rare exception, to be encountered once or twice in a career? The evidence suggests they are/were in every diocese, and likely in every country. Every priest even would have had some suspicions about some of their colleagues. Every bishop would have had to deal with the details.

    Brady is not an exception to one failing his moral duty. The mind-set he was in made him follow orders.

    What each Catholic needs to consider is the fact that the Catholic Church is the problem - its institutional power gave depravity a safe breeding-ground. Only modern communications has revealed the institutional extent of the corruption and cover-up, otherwise it would have remained the 'sectarian propaganda' of the few who left the priesthood and orders, and the powerless victims.

    Humanly speaking, the only hope the RCC has is in offering up a few notable scapegoats and getting the lid back on as soon as possible. If the full truth emerges, its claim to be the true Church will be seen for the con it is.


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