How is this possible? - Utah woman to sue herself - could it happen here?

Brian Lighthouse · 26-03-2015 10:51pm #1

I'm baffled by this.
How is this possible and could it ever happen - or has it ever happened - here in Ireland.

In a nutshell, Bagley v Bagley. Mrs Bagley was driving a vehicle and it was involved in an accident from which her husband suffered fatal injuries. She has been granted permission to sue herself by the Utah courts of appeal.
She claims she was negligent in failing to keep control of the car.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11435964/Bagley-vs-Bagley-Widow-sues-herself-after-her-husband-dies-in-crash.html

Any thoughts?
Thanks

NoQuarter · 26-03-2015 11:05pm

It could happen in theory.

I think the Civil Liability Act allows claims to vest in the estate of a deceased.

So if the wife crashed a car, the husband died, the husband (had he not died) would have a claim against the driver (the insurance really) but as he did die, the claim can be taken by the wife in the deceased name.

So she is suing herself (on behalf of the deceased) but it would be the insurance company that pays out.

endacl · 26-03-2015 11:08pm

Must take herself out for a spin....

loremolis · 26-03-2015 11:15pm

How can she instruct her lawyer on each side?

Brian Lighthouse · 26-03-2015 11:15pm

Thanks No Quarter,
That makes some sense to me. So to pay the bills resulting from the accident - hospital, funeral etc - she has to sue in the hope she will be found negligent and the insurance policy on her husband/car will pay out.
So then if she won her case against herself and she (the driver) was found negligent, could she face a following criminal trail?

Brian Lighthouse · 26-03-2015 11:16pm

loremolis wrote: »

How can she instruct her lawyer on each side?

That's one element contributing to my baffledness.

NoQuarter · 26-03-2015 11:22pm

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

Thanks No Quarter,
That makes some sense to me. So to pay the bills resulting from the accident - hospital, funeral etc - she has to sue in the hope she will be found negligent and the insurance policy on her husband/car will pay out.
So then if she won her case against herself and she (the driver) was found negligent, could she face a following criminal trail?

Yes it's possible. Negligence doesn't even have to be a factor. It can be simply that it was her fault. Sometimes an accident can be your fault but you haven't been negligent.

loremolis wrote: »

How can she instruct her lawyer on each side?

The defendant really becomes the insurance company so they will be instructing the defence lawyer.

arthur daly · 27-03-2015 12:49am

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

I'm baffled by this.
How is this possible and could it ever happen - or has it ever happened - here in Ireland.

In a nutshell, Bagley v Bagley. Mrs Bagley was driving a vehicle and it was involved in an accident from which her husband suffered fatal injuries. She has been granted permission to sue herself by the Utah courts of appeal.
She claims she was negligent in failing to keep control of the car.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11435964/Bagley-vs-Bagley-Widow-sues-herself-after-her-husband-dies-in-crash.html

Any thoughts?
Thanks

If she was found negligent could sgebe charged with manslaughter

arthur daly · 27-03-2015 12:50am

Brian Lighthouse wrote: »

I'm baffled by this.
How is this possible and could it ever happen - or has it ever happened - here in Ireland.

In a nutshell, Bagley v Bagley. Mrs Bagley was driving a vehicle and it was involved in an accident from which her husband suffered fatal injuries. She has been granted permission to sue herself by the Utah courts of appeal.
She claims she was negligent in failing to keep control of the car.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/11435964/Bagley-vs-Bagley-Widow-sues-herself-after-her-husband-dies-in-crash.html

Any thoughts?
Thanks

If she was found negligent could sgebe charged with manslaughter

goz83 · 27-03-2015 1:14am

America. The place where a child can be sued and now....where you can sue yourself.

Ken. · 27-03-2015 1:27am

I'm just waiting for the bit where she calls herself to the stand,tries to question herself and pleads the 5th.

Peregrinus · 27-03-2015 3:08am

loremolis wrote: »

How can she instruct her lawyer on each side?

In her capacity as the driver she is backed by an insurance company (which of course is why she is suing). And the insurance company will instruct lawyers on behalf of the defence, and indeed will take on the entire conduct of the defence.

She is basically arguing that, as the widow of a passenger killed in the car through the driver's negligence, she should have the same rights against the driver's insurer as would the widow of any other passenger killed in the car.

NoQuarter · 27-03-2015 11:11am

The thing is, whether this is in the States or in Ireland, on a technical reading it's entirely right, legally speaking. I actually cant see any reason why the claim wouldn't be successful?

Uno my Uno. · 27-03-2015 11:40am

loremolis wrote: »

How can she instruct her lawyer on each side?

I recall a case (the name of which I forget natch) in this jurisdiction that basically amounted to the same thing. A minor child was seriously injured in a single vehicle accident. The child sued the driver (her mother) but because she was a minor she did this by her next friend (also her mother) which meant that the mother sued herself. As pointed out above in effect the child was suing her mother's insurance who instructed the defence by way of subrogation of the claim.

I'm a bit hazy on the facts as its a long time since I read the case so I am open to correction on the above but it isn't that outlandish of a prospect.

Renegade Mechanic · 27-03-2015 11:42am

Soooo..... Will she get money?

Or jail...

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 11:45am

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Soooo..... Will she get money?

Or jail...

why would she get jail? its a civil trial.

Shemale · 27-03-2015 11:45am

The insurance company surely would be paying something as the husband was a passenger and so a fatally injured third party.

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 11:48am

Is this case as unusual as people are making out? Wouldnt the same thing happen if a parent is driving their children and causes an accident that hurts those children?

Uno my Uno. · 27-03-2015 11:52am

Shemale wrote: »

The insurance company surely would be paying something as the husband was a passenger and so a fatally injured third party.

It would seem that way. The issue of a criminal prosecution is for the public prosecutor to decide, if charges were brought they would be in a separate trial.

A Civil Trial is decided on the balance of probabilities, ie if it is 51% likely that she caused the death the insurance company will have to pay out.

A criminal trial works to a much higher degree of certainty, beyond all reasonable doubt, virtual certainty. That is why it is possible for someone to be found to be liable for the death of a person in a civil court but not be convicted in a criminal court for the same death. Often such a prosecution will not even be brought as the likelihood of success is not high enough.

Uno my Uno. · 27-03-2015 11:53am

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is this case as unusual as people are making out? Wouldnt the same thing happen if a parent is driving their children and causes an accident that hurts those children?

Exactly my point a few posts earlier.

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I recall a case (the name of which I forget natch) in this jurisdiction that basically amounted to the same thing. A minor child was seriously injured in a single vehicle accident. The child sued the driver (her mother) but because she was a minor she did this by her next friend (also her mother) which meant that the mother sued herself. As pointed out above in effect the child was suing her mother's insurance who instructed the defence by way of subrogation of the claim.

I'm a bit hazy on the facts as its a long time since I read the case so I am open to correction on the above but it isn't that outlandish of a prospect.

Shemale · 27-03-2015 11:59am

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

It would seem that way. The issue of a criminal prosecution is for the public prosecutor to decide, if charges were brought they would be in a separate trial.

A Civil Trial is decided on the balance of probabilities, ie if it is 51% likely that she caused the death the insurance company will have to pay out.

A criminal trial works to a much higher degree of certainty, beyond all reasonable doubt, virtual certainty. That is why it is possible for someone to be found to be liable for the death of a person in a civil court but not be convicted in a criminal court for the same death. Often such a prosecution will not even be brought as the likelihood of success is not high enough.

I understand that but if they have paid out and she is taking a civil action against herself how could the company be brought into it.

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 12:01pm

Shemale wrote: »

I understand that but if they have paid out and she is taking a civil action against herself how could the company be brought into it.

the civil action is actually against her insurance company.

seamus · 27-03-2015 12:10pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Is this case as unusual as people are making out? Wouldnt the same thing happen if a parent is driving their children and causes an accident that hurts those children?

It's slightly different. In the children scenario, it's the children who are suing their mother for damages.

In this case the injured party is probably the estate of the deceased rather than the woman herself.

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 12:21pm

seamus wrote: »

It's slightly different. In the children scenario, it's the children who are suing their mother for damages.

In this case the injured party is probably the estate of the deceased rather than the woman herself.

exactly. In the example i gave it would the legal guardian of the children who take the action which is usually the parents.

In this example it is the woman is only taking the action as she is the beneficiary of the estate of the deceased.

27-03-2015 12:37pm

seamus wrote: »

It's slightly different. In the children scenario, it's the children who are suing their mother for damages.

In this case the injured party is probably the estate of the deceased rather than the woman herself.

I would actually be surprised to hear that a parent was allowed to act as both te next friend of the child for litigation purposes as well as being the defendant. Is there not a requirement that litigation friends certify that they don't have a conflict of interest or any reason that would prevent them from representing the best interests of the child.

Different for executors as they are involuntarily appointments.

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 12:43pm

234 wrote: »

I would actually be surprised to hear that a parent was allowed to act as both te next friend of the child for litigation purposes as well as being the defendant. Is there not a requirement that litigation friends certify that they don't have a conflict of interest or any reason that would prevent them from representing the best interests of the child.

Different for executors as they are involuntarily appointments.

but would the defendant not actually be the insurance company?

Claw Hammer · 27-03-2015 4:56pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

but would the defendant not actually be the insurance company?

No. Insurance companies only provide an indemnity. They are not reponsible for the incident.

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 5:00pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

No. Insurance companies only provide an indemnity. They are not reponsible for the incident.

i didnt say they were responsible. If somebody is suing me over a road traffic accident then my car insurance company would be the one defending the case in any civil trial. They are the ones who would be paying out after all.

27-03-2015 5:11pm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

i didnt say they were responsible. If somebody is suing me over a road traffic accident then my car insurance company would be the one defending the case in any civil trial. They are the ones who would be paying out after all.

But from a conflict of interest point of view you still have an interest.

So in the case where you have a litigation friend acting for a child, you should not (as far as I'm aware) have an interest contrary to theirs in the proceedings. And if you are also the defendant then you have an interest in not being found liable, you can't escape that. Even if the insurer is paying you will still be found liable and you will be forced to pay higher premiums in the future.

I know that some people might think that this will be less than the costs of caring for an injured child, but that's not how conflicts of interest work. You don't get to net the conflicts against one another and take the course which is more advantageous. There is still a conflict.

ohnonotgmail · 27-03-2015 5:15pm

234 wrote: »

But from a conflict of interest point of view you still have an interest.

So in the case where you have a litigation friend acting for a child, you should not (as far as I'm aware) have an interest contrary to theirs in the proceedings. And if you are also the defendant then you have an interest in not being found liable, you can't escape that. Even if the insurer is paying you will still be found liable and you will be forced to pay higher premiums in the future.

I know that some people might think that this will be less than the costs of caring for an injured child, but that's not how conflicts of interest work. You don't get to net the conflicts against one another and take the course which is more advantageous. There is still a conflict.

I still dont think there is a conflict as you would have absolutely no say in your defence. You give the insurance company the right to conduct the defence they see fit as part of your insurance contract. It would the insurance company instructing the lawyers not you. It would be the insurance company deciding whether to settle or not.

Uno my Uno. · 27-03-2015 5:49pm

234 wrote: »

But from a conflict of interest point of view you still have an interest.

So in the case where you have a litigation friend acting for a child, you should not (as far as I'm aware) have an interest contrary to theirs in the proceedings. And if you are also the defendant then you have an interest in not being found liable, you can't escape that. Even if the insurer is paying you will still be found liable and you will be forced to pay higher premiums in the future.

I know that some people might think that this will be less than the costs of caring for an injured child, but that's not how conflicts of interest work. You don't get to net the conflicts against one another and take the course which is more advantageous. There is still a conflict.

there is a conflict but it may be possible to obtain permission from the court to act notwithstanding this. The Story in the OP would have had the same problem and permission was granted by the court.

How is this possible? - Utah woman to sue herself - could it happen here?

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