Abortion

Liesannenl · 26-02-2015 4:06pm #1

Hi there!

I'm Liesanne and I'm from the Netherlands. I'd like to ask you a few questions about Abortion. Like I already said I'm from the Netherlands, where abortion is generally accepted. But when I'm reading the news about Ireland and abortion it's rather the opposite. So the reason why I opened this thread, is because I wonder where this comes from. Why is abortion still illegal in most of the cases? I wonder what you think of abortion and what do you think should be the law in Ireland of abortion?

Sincerely,

Liesanne

Black Swan · 26-02-2015 5:13pm

Abortion is a personal, medical, psychological, sociological, political, philosophical, and theologically charged issue in Ireland, as it is in many countries. Given that it crosses several disciplines, it's a good topic for discussion in Humanities.

bpmurray · 26-02-2015 5:29pm

Liesannenl wrote: »

Why is abortion still illegal in most of the cases?

Actually it's illegal in all cases.

When women want abortions in Ireland, a few thousand every year, they travel abroad, usually to the UK but sometimes to the Netherlands.

Liesannenl · 26-02-2015 5:42pm

bpmurray wrote: »

Actually it's illegal in all cases.

When women want abortions in Ireland, a few thousand every year, they travel abroad, usually to the UK but sometimes to the Netherlands.

On the internet I read it is legal if it occurs as the result of a medical intervention performed to save the life of the mother.

Black Swan · 26-02-2015 5:56pm

bpmurray wrote: »

Actually it's illegal in all cases.

When women want abortions in Ireland, a few thousand every year, they travel abroad, usually to the UK but sometimes to the Netherlands.

There is an apparent conflict between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK in regards to abortion law.

Torakx · 26-02-2015 6:05pm

The reason is that the Catholic church had quite a bit of power over the minds of the people of Ireland.
This had a strong effect on our culture and general principles.
Lately the church has lost a lot of power.
In Irish society generally the religious catholocs are few and few with each generation. Most I know don't go to church or think about god, but the rules ae still more or less there with the older generations.
Also I am pretty sure the majority of voters are the older generation, who still watch television. This means they are still being indoctrinated by RTE and cohorts.
I'm not sure if the state broadcaster is in cahoots with the church as well as the other criminals it serves.
I don't have a tv and avoid propaganda as much as possible.
But maybe someone else here can confirm that RTE shows a certain bias in favour of the churchs ideology.

The current referendum on abortion is being used to hide the water charges and TTIP european agreement which will be a major move forward in making the average european more impoverished and tied to the state as a legal entity under the european business jurisdiction(maritime law).
So while everyone is thinking about morals and ethics, these criminals will be stealing our futures out from under us.

Abortion is a serious topic though. It's just the rulling class don't give a damn. It's a convenient distraction in their eyes.
I think it will get a no vote in Ireland. But I could see that changing when the older generations who only know tv pass away, what will be left hopefully will more informed voters.
At least until Internet 2.0 lol
Then we are all back at square one, with propoganda and media bias.

Ps, I'm sorry if I got my referendums mixed up, there might be a gay marriage one coming up soon and I am not sure which is going to happen first. Again I don't watch tv or read newspapers, so not really sure.
But on average these types of referendums which don't amount to profit for the government and its criminals(sorry they are a terrible terrible, corrupt establishment) are usually held off for a time when they need a distraction.
While there is a referendum on, they usually slip in new laws on unrelated matters or related, that will impoverish the nation down the line, while they are serious debating some other moral or ethical topic. Very easy to do and then get your retirement/pension as an MP when it's too late to do anything about it.
Ireland has a long line of criminals retired from politics still drawing massive pensions.
This also effects the likes of abortion laws, because these people could make a massive difference, but they are too busy scamming for retirement.

The Corinthian · 27-02-2015 10:37am

Liesannenl wrote: »

Why is abortion still illegal in most of the cases?

Because culturally Ireland is very different to countries like the Netherlands, most notably in that Ireland is overwhelmingly Roman Catholic, although Ireland's isolated agrarian and parochial history probably plays a large part too. As a result Ireland will differ from the Netherlands on numerous social issues, such as abortion, prostitution or even marriage (the Irish divorce rate is c. 16% as opposed to the Dutch rate of almost three times that at 43%).

I wonder what you think of abortion and what do you think should be the law in Ireland of abortion?

What answer do you want? A philosophical one? An opinion of greater Irish opinion?

If the latter, my guess is that culturally the Irish are still uncomfortable with the idea of abortion in general. As a result you'll tend to find that even many pro-choice views will still be quite tentative and restrictive when compared to views that you'd find in the Netherlands. I also suspect that while public opinion has changed over the last few decades to the point that legalization of abortion will likely be possible within the next few years, due to the residual 'squeamishness' of the Irish on the subject it will likely be far more restrictive that in the Netherlands and require some form of moral justification, beyond a woman's right to choose, to legitimize it in Irish eyes.

Either way, asking here is probably not too useful as the demographics of this site don't mirror Irish demographics in general.

Liesannenl · 01-03-2015 8:13pm

Torakx wrote: »

Also I am pretty sure the majority of voters are the older generation, who still watch television. This means they are still being indoctrinated by RTE and cohorts.

The current referendum on abortion is being used to hide the water charges and TTIP european agreement which will be a major move forward in making the average european more impoverished and tied to the state as a legal entity under the european business jurisdiction(maritime law).
So while everyone is thinking about morals and ethics, these criminals will be stealing our futures out from under us.

Abortion is a serious topic though. It's just the rulling class don't give a damn. It's a convenient distraction in their eyes.
I think it will get a no vote in Ireland. But I could see that changing when the older generations who only know tv pass away, what will be left hopefully will more informed voters.
At least until Internet 2.0 lol
Then we are all back at square one, with propoganda and media bias.

Ps, I'm sorry if I got my referendums mixed up, there might be a gay marriage one coming up soon and I am not sure which is going to happen first. Again I don't watch tv or read newspapers, so not really sure.
But on average these types of referendums which don't amount to profit for the government and its criminals(sorry they are a terrible terrible, corrupt establishment) are usually held off for a time when they need a distraction.
While there is a referendum on, they usually slip in new laws on unrelated matters or related, that will impoverish the nation down the line, while they are serious debating some other moral or ethical topic. Very easy to do and then get your retirement/pension as an MP when it's too late to do anything about it.
Ireland has a long line of criminals retired from politics still drawing massive pensions.
This also effects the likes of abortion laws, because these people could make a massive difference, but they are too busy scamming for retirement.

I have a few questions. What do you mean with the older generation who still watch tv? I'd say the newer generation would watch more tv than the older generation. Also I don't quite understand what you mean with 'to hide the water charges' .

Torakx · 01-03-2015 10:14pm

Liesannenl wrote: »

I have a few questions. What do you mean with the older generation who still watch tv? I'd say the newer generation would watch more tv than the older generation. Also I don't quite understand what you mean with 'to hide the water charges' .

Being very general, they new generations are more connected online.
Information online at the moment has a lot more freedom to move around.
Television is programming. You don't choose your source. The older generations grew up with only tv, it is naturally and again in general the most common form of information gathering, that and newspapers and radio, all of which are unreliable.

Regarding the water charges. If there is an abortion referendum in Ireland, the timing will be in line with some legislation that would normally be rejected.
The marriage referendum I think is currently happening, and it is probably this that is used to distract from the current water charges issue as legislation or some other clock is ticking out(a ministers position change for example or a party election).

The Corinthian · 02-03-2015 10:04am

Liesannenl wrote: »

I'd say the newer generation would watch more tv than the older generation.

From what I gather, the newer generations are actually less likely to watch television and more likely to use the Internet to get their information and entertainment. Viewership figures for TV have been in free-fall for a few years now.

Bezuhov · 02-03-2015 5:33pm

If Torakx watched TV, he/she would be aware that RTE, in common with the media generally, campaigns strongly and relentlessly for abortion. Pro-life views are accorded only token representation, e.g. discussion panels are almost invariably loaded 3 to1 or 4 to 1 in favour of abortion.

In my opinion, discussion of this issue is rarely focused on the central issue, i.e., when does life begin, and consequently attain human rights ?
If common ground could be found in answering this question, then all other connected issues could be discussed more productively in the light of that answer. As it is, discussions of abortion usually involve people talking at cross purposes, each doggedly pursuing their own side- issue in a dialogue of the deaf.

It is often suggested that independent viability be used as a cut-off point for abortion, but this view is clearly rooted in convenience, not science, and does not seriously address the question.

Perhaps Liesannenl could provide us with a Dutch perspective on the question of when life begins, when human rights begin.

Liesannenl · 02-03-2015 6:01pm

So when I get to my conclusion, it seems like you're all not really against abortion? It seems that it's just the law that makes abortion illegal + the older generation. Or isn't that the right conclusion?

Dhduxbeusns · 02-03-2015 6:11pm

We don't have abortion in ireland yet. The younger generation wants it because they don't value human lives (they have unprotected sex frequently). The older generation are anti abortion. The politicians are anti abortion too.

From a medical point of view a fertilised egg in a woman is a living thing. As humans we shouldn't kill living things, especially if that living thing will become a human baby in mere months.

Bezuhov · 02-03-2015 8:55pm

Liesannenl wrote: »

So when I get to my conclusion, it seems like you're all not really against abortion? It seems that it's just the law that makes abortion illegal + the older generation. Or isn't that the right conclusion?

I am firmly opposed to abortion on the basis that it is impossible to pinpoint a time between conception and birth where life begins. Therefore a unique, unrepeatable human individual is present from fertilisation onward.

Would still like to hear from you, Liesanne, regarding the crucial question of when life begins.

oldozer · 03-03-2015 2:20am

Bezuhov wrote: »

I am firmly opposed to abortion on the basis that it is impossible to pinpoint a time between conception and birth where life begins. Therefore a unique, unrepeatable human individual is present from fertilisation onward.

Would still like to hear from you, Liesanne, regarding the crucial question of when life begins.

I too am of the opinion of abortion being wrong. But then on my reading of Scripture related matters contraception is a form of abortion. Scripture of course would have us believe of contraception being a means of "Spilling of the seed". A whole other question of course which would have me think of maybe sex not being something which is not to be regarded as a subject of pleasure only.

Thinking of the old Essene thing here of which Joseph being The Virgin Father. Not a job given lightly to any old dude if we believe in some form of creator. Birth had already been created in That Family in some belief, so yet a whole other story. A Divine Creation, a Virgin birth of which has been with us as some belief of 2000 years.

Abortion as a subject has touched this writer though a decision was not within my remit of the time. Given time over though I think I would not have been one to think too long on that being a good idea as for my part I would have said no to that choice. Foolish or otherwise I think it not something taken lightly. I would not dare to judge those who would find themselves in that situation, but I would try to support those who take that choice.

The writer being old enough to remember some who spoke on this subject of times past, "blessings" given with new life, a thought comes to mind. Old folk of my past would have me believe of conception. Those old folk would tell of this new life given a secret name by their Guardian Angel. The index finger placed on the upper lip of a new gift to mankind would have This Guardian placed said index finger on the upper lip with a "shush" as this secret name was known only to The Creator and Their Guardian.

New reading of my own would have me believe of the heart being the first organ at conception. Perhaps the soul, and all knowledge is contained in this heart. Heart frequency, Aural Field, call it what you will, but this the aborted could also contain some new field of advancement to humankind. Statistics of course would have us believe of humanity knowing more than creation.

A small amount of study on my part lead me to some well known University in America whereby the majority have now come to believe in abortion being acceptable to Five years of age. The reasons cited, well they have not become real persons. An abortionist who was reprimanded for his method of abortion. Abortion was not the issue in his discipline, he just happened to be taking home trophies. He of course was only one of many which came to notice as some Nurses had problems with Ethics. One Nurse had a problem with the breaking of the neck as a means of dispatch of the aborted, but hygiene was a cause of that clinic being closed temporally.

Fertilization most definitely is the creation of being unique. Regardless of how this method is achieved in the normal sense. Unique, unrepeatable life in that unique way. Each life in Billions of present, past, yet to be. None, no Two the same. I think this could be called unique even if we don't quite fully understand it.

Dozer.

The Corinthian · 03-03-2015 9:34am

Liesannenl wrote: »

So when I get to my conclusion, it seems like you're all not really against abortion? It seems that it's just the law that makes abortion illegal + the older generation. Or isn't that the right conclusion?

No. Suggesting that it's down to simple age demographics is a simplistic conclusion. Younger Irish people may be more positively predisposed to the legalization of abortion, but even there, there would be significantly less support for it than in countries such as the Netherlands.

There are various other factors involved; religion, history, culture - all have played a part in Ireland's views on social issues. And I specifically refer to them as social issues, because it is a trend that you'll see in Irish attitudes towards many other topics, such as marriage, divorce, prostitution and so on. You can't ignore those as they are related.

Ireland is a more socially conservative country. It lacks the same history and culture of liberalism or individualism that the Netherlands has. So inevitably it will comparatively appear less permissive.

Bezuhov · 03-03-2015 7:19pm

[Quote The Corinthian
Ireland is a more socially conservative country. It lacks the same history and culture of liberalism or individualism that the Netherlands has. So inevitably it will comparatively appear less permissive.[/quote]

I would question the use of the term liberalism in this context. To sanction the destruction of unborn life and dress this up as compassion seems to me profoundly illiberal. A more accurate term would be pseudo- liberal.

Torakx · 03-03-2015 8:48pm

It is really an ethical question isn't it?
Which I think cannot have a right or wrong. That would be subjective.

For me, I would tend to defer to the person involved to decide.
Even if it was my own child, I couldn,t knowingly force someone to have a baby, at the same time, I would accept responsibility for my actions or inactions.

I can't even seriously argue that killing someone is wrong.
I would end up disecting what it is to be wrong and the pros and cons of the conflicts involved for humanity and our evolution(of our conscious minds mostly).

But looking at a cultural level on the whole, you can see that ireland is slowly moving towards pro abortion.
I think this has been helped a great deal by western mass media, entertainment and propaganda.

The Corinthian · 03-03-2015 10:16pm

Bezuhov wrote: »

I would question the use of the term liberalism in this context. To sanction the destruction of unborn life and dress this up as compassion seems to me profoundly illiberal. A more accurate term would be pseudo- liberal.

I think you need to read up on what liberalism actually means as you appear to be under the delusion that it is somehow connected to some concept of compassion. It's not.

Bezuhov · 04-03-2015 12:39am

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think you need to read up on what liberalism actually means as you appear to be under the delusion that it is somehow connected to some concept of compassion. It's not.

Perhaps I over complicated matters by referring to two distinct concepts in the same sentence !
My reference to compassion decries the tendency of promoters of abortion to appeal to the emotions by characterising abortion as a compassionate response to crisis pregnancy.
I would have thought it obvious that my reference to illiberalism refers to the taking of human life, since true liberalism cherishes personal freedom, and surely primacy must be given to the most basic freedom - to live.

The Corinthian · 04-03-2015 9:25am

Bezuhov wrote: »

I would have thought it obvious that my reference to illiberalism refers to the taking of human life, since true liberalism cherishes personal freedom, and surely primacy must be given to the most basic freedom - to live.

I'm afraid liberalism does no such thing. Some schools, typically in social liberalism, may but it would be incorrect to suggest that liberalism, as a whole, gives any primacy to the 'freedom' (it's a right, btw, not a freedom) to live. For example, social Darwinism is a liberal school of thought and it hardly gives any such primacy.

So no, I'm sorry, you are incorrect in your understanding of liberalism. It is not actually illiberal to condone or sanction the termination of life.

Bezuhov · 04-03-2015 9:40pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Some schools, typically in social liberalism, may but it would be incorrect to suggest that liberalism, as a whole, gives any primacy to the 'freedom' (it's a right, btw, not a freedom) to live.

Who decides what constitutes liberalism as a whole ?
The Oxford Dictionary defines liberal as "favourable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms"
(btw, of what value is a right without the freedom to exercise it ? )

We could play, as Jack Charlton might say, "silly buggers" semantically until the cows come home, but frankly, it's not a game that interests me. I would much prefer to stick with the original discussion raised in this thread.
To that end, l am disappointed, though not surprised that nobody seems inclined to engage with the question of when life begins.

The Corinthian · 04-03-2015 10:11pm

Bezuhov wrote: »

Who decides what constitutes liberalism as a whole ?
The Oxford Dictionary defines liberal as "favourable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms"
(btw, of what value is a right without the freedom to exercise it ? )

You might want to use an encyclopedia rather than a dictionary when you do your research. You do know, BTW, that your definition does not contradict anything I said and neither does it support what you said - you presumed that life is of primary importance in liberalism, because you believe it should be, not because of anything factual.

We could play, as Jack Charlton might say, "silly buggers" semantically until the cows come home, but frankly, it's not a game that interests me. I would much prefer to stick with the original discussion raised in this thread.

Don't confuse semantics with correcting someone when they come out with something that is plainly and factually incorrect. You said something wrong, I corrected it - if you like I can also link to some Wikipedia articles on the subject.

To that end, l am disappointed, though not surprised that nobody seems inclined to engage with the question of when life begins.

So you can base all your arguments on nine-word dictionary definitions and accuse people of semantics when they point out that you don't appear to know what you're discussing? I'm afraid it might be you who's not engaging.

oldozer · 04-03-2015 11:08pm

"To that end, l am disappointed, though not surprised that nobody seems inclined to engage with the question of when life begins".

Good point, but I would be inclined to think conception is life.

You have two choices before, and two choices after the act of conception.

Just like the OP who had a choice on asking the question.

What is the view of the op ?

Dozer.

Lakefrio · 07-03-2015 3:09pm

Liesannenl wrote: »

Hi there!

I'm Liesanne and I'm from the Netherlands. I'd like to ask you a few questions about Abortion. Like I already said I'm from the Netherlands, where abortion is generally accepted. But when I'm reading the news about Ireland and abortion it's rather the opposite. So the reason why I opened this thread, is because I wonder where this comes from. Why is abortion still illegal in most of the cases? I wonder what you think of abortion and what do you think should be the law in Ireland of abortion?

Sincerely,

Liesanne

It is regarded as immoral to kill a fetus by some people.

Torakx · 07-03-2015 5:01pm

Bezuhov wrote: »

Who decides what constitutes liberalism as a whole ?
The Oxford Dictionary defines liberal as "favourable to or respectful of individual rights and freedoms"
(btw, of what value is a right without the freedom to exercise it ? )

We could play, as Jack Charlton might say, "silly buggers" semantically until the cows come home, but frankly, it's not a game that interests me. I would much prefer to stick with the original discussion raised in this thread.
To that end, l am disappointed, though not surprised that nobody seems inclined to engage with the question of when life begins.

It could be argued that an unborn fetus is not yet an individual. As far as I know children become self aware around the age of 2-3.

The Corinthian · 07-03-2015 6:08pm

Torakx wrote: »

It could be argued that an unborn fetus is not yet an individual. As far as I know children become self aware around the age of 2-3.

That's a good argument for infanticide.

Sapience, what you've described, is sometimes cited as a criteria of person-hood, but not very often because it's not actually reached by humans until long after birth and thus flawed (unless you want to have infanticide).

Sentience, the ability to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively, is another criteria often used. Problem is, other than the fact that almost all animals posses this, is that it can be lost too - comatose patients are not sentient, does that mean they're not people? Apparently they are because a caveat is then added to the definition of person-hood to say once you qualify as a person, you can't lose it.

Which is pretty questionable, TBH. Somehow the ability to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively makes you a person (why is never really explained), but it's not really that important because you can still be a person if you lose that ability. Make sense? Not really.

It's also not helped by the fact that most people, on both sides of the debate, don't seem to know what sentience or sapience are.

My views on the subject have changed over the decades, but ultimately the only reasonable definition of a 'person' I've arrived at is a homo sapien organism; homo sapien because the definition is presently limited to our species and organism because only an organism will grow, metabolize and eventually reproduce given the right environment. A fingernail will not. Sperm will not.

Of course, just because it's a person, that doesn't mean it has a right to life. There's no such thing as an absolute right to life and as a society we have numerous examples of where one loses that right, or has that right overruled by someone else's right to something else. The myth of an absolute right to life is just a fairy tale bandied about by people who like to cite terms like liberalism without having a clue what they're talking about.

But the absolute right to life debate is another can of worms.

The whole 'when is a fetus a person' argument is a bit of a red herring, largely because the whole issue is highly emotive and your average joe or jane will decide on the basis of believing that the fetus is either a ball of cells or an adorable little baby.

The entire debate, on both sides, is framed so as to appeal to people's emotions, not their reason.

K4t · 09-03-2015 11:30am

Liesannenl wrote: »

I wonder where this comes from. Why is abortion still illegal in most of the cases?

Devout Catholicism up until very recently, though a lot of people in positions of power in this country still subscribe to many core beliefs. And those who do not still carry much of the mentality of the religion.

I wonder what you think of abortion and what do you think should be the law in Ireland of abortion?

If every woman in the world decided they were not going to have kids or become pregnant, it would not be right for men to force themselves on a woman to continue humanity. It would be for men to change women's' minds. Not to tell them what to do. And if men would not change their minds, then extinction would be right.

A man or a woman deciding another woman cannot have an abortion, no matter at what stage, is to force themselves on that woman. It is not right.

It's a shame that it will probably take another 50 years for me to be proven right, but again religion specialises in stalling progress.

The Corinthian · 09-03-2015 11:39am

K4t wrote: »

If every woman in the world decided they were not going to have kids or become pregnant, it would not be right for men to force themselves on a woman to continue humanity. It would be for men to change women's' minds. Not to tell them what to do. And if men would not change their minds, then extinction would be right.

Pretty extreme level of individualism there. What limits, if any, do you place on the individual being able to overrule the greater good, out of interest?

K4t · 09-03-2015 11:56am

The Corinthian wrote: »

Pretty extreme level of individualism there. What limits, if any, do you place on the individual being able to overrule the greater good, out of interest?

Levels of extremity depend on your perspective. It's quite funny and ever so sad that you think the greater good has something to do with a woman's right to have control and choice over her own body.

The Corinthian · 09-03-2015 12:00pm

K4t wrote: »

Levels of extremity depend on your perspective. It's quite funny and ever so sad that you think the greater good has something to do with a woman's right to have control and choice over her own body.

Well, I would have considered the species the greater good as it includes both genders. And an extinction scenario would be considered pretty extreme I'd imagine.

Or are you saying that the right of the individual being able to overrule the greater good should be limited to women or what exactly?

Abortion

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