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Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    PopUp wrote: »
    I don't disagree with any of this. I don't know what you're reading in my posts, I've said twice their crimes were terrible. But Carr =/ Hindley, not by a long shot and even mentioning her in the same sentence (no pun intended) is daft.

    Sorry PopUp.

    Carr is different to Hindley. No doubt about it. But if you look at the Wayne O'Donoughue case it was his Dad who performed a citizens arrest on him and delivered him into custody.

    What I am emphasizing here is that there is a huge difference between right and wrong.

    In the Caroline Brennan case is the essential part does the person accused know the difference between right and wrong and is there another course of action open to them. I think she knew right from wrong, arrived with a knife could have stayed away from the party and decided on a course of action which resulted in her killing her brother..

    So as a society and as a country or citizens we should be able to say it without fudging the issue and waffling on about things. Let evidence follow the facts.

    When I read the arguments on punishment my head hurts. I see gender when I should be seeing perpetrator or accused or defendant or prisoner.

    So what I am seeing is a bunch of leaders of interest groups fudging around keeping the law on track. Doing the right thing and the unpopular thing is hard.

    If the figures are to be believed and the Irish trends are similar to the UK we are facing complaints and prosecutions of female abusers over the next few years for child sexual abuse. Its not as if the academic studies of this are not new as they have been circulating since the 70s.



    And Mariska rocks :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭S.L.F


    PopUp wrote: »
    Sure, yeah, sometimes. And the Iona private event with the TD in charge of health and children is a prime example of that.

    TD's go to lots of meetings with lots of different people for lots of different reasons...singling this one out doesn't make any sense to me, who was excluded from it and how does it compare to Bacik being sexist.
    PopUp wrote: »
    Ivana Bacik is a Senator. She has no power, none. The Queen of England has more influence than her. She isn't even a member of a political party. The idea that her meeting for women TDs to talk to a British expert on women prisoners was facilitating some kind of backroom deal is laughable. I'm just saying, lets be realistic and not get carried away with ourselves.

    Hold on there a minute...

    Bacik has no real serious power I'll agree with you there but the 13% of female TDs do.

    Do please remember that those female TDs represent men as well.

    But more importantly the male TDs who were excluded from this meeting also represent women and since they were elected to office they should have been given the option of going to this meeting.
    PopUp wrote: »
    Saying that people with the meat and two veg have no say in women's issues is silly - they make up 87% of the Dail, they are the ones who decide all women's issues and all political issues for that matter.

    Correct and they were voted in by women as well as by men.
    PopUp wrote: »
    Women are not an ethnic minority but they are a tiny minority in the Dail.

    13% is not a tiny minority 1 or 2 % is a tiny minority

    **

    I feel Bacik should have had the meeting elsewhere and not on govt property and certainly should NOT have announced this during session


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭PopUp


    S.L.F wrote: »
    I feel Bacik should have had the meeting elsewhere and not on govt property and certainly should NOT have announced this during session

    Hey no disagreement there. I am in complete agreement. I just don't think that this was a) typical or b) important in the grand scheme of things. Men are not excluded from power in Ireland. I think this was a bad way to go about things, but I don't think it should be blown out of proportion.
    CDfm wrote:
    If the figures are to be believed and the Irish trends are similar to the UK we are facing complaints and prosecutions of female abusers over the next few years for child sexual abuse. Its not as if the academic studies of this are not new as they have been circulating since the 70s.

    Well 'if the figures are to be believed'... that's my whole point really. I just want to see some Irish figures. But there aren't any.

    Incidentally one criticism of feminism often made by conservative commentators in America and elsewhere is that it has led to an increase in crime in women. Which just makes sense - if you give people more social freedom and more choices some of them will abuse that freedom, and make bad choices.
    And Mariska rocks :D
    She does indeed! :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    PopUp wrote: »
    Saying that people with the meat and two veg have no say in women's issues is silly - they make up 87% of the Dail, they are the ones who decide all women's issues and all political issues for that matter. Women are not an ethnic minority but they are a tiny minority in the Dail.

    OK PopUp - women make up 50% of the population and the voters. Do women vote for women canditates?????

    The Biggest Womens Political Group is Womens Aid.
    Mission Statement

    Women's Aid is a feminist, political and campaigning organisation committed to the elimination of violence and abuse of women through effecting political, cultural and social change.

    Women's Aid provides direct support services to women experiencing male violence and abuse. This work underpins and informs all other goals and actions of the organisation.

    I have highlighted a part of its Mission Statement where it says it is a political organisation but it does not put up candidates. It presumably feels it does better lobbying other political organisations and government agencies.

    The cynic in me says the second part of the Mission Statement is how it raises money to fund these objectives.

    So it is not other peoples with "meat and two veg" fault if the biggest womens political organisation operate with that policy.

    So how are women going to be elected if they don't go forward as candidates.You cannot adopt a model like that and whinge about not being elected.

    Who elected the head of Womens Aid Margaret Martin or Susan McKay of the National Womens Council of Ireland which claims to represent 300,000 women.

    And did you vote personally.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭PopUp


    CDfm wrote: »
    OK PopUp - women make up 50% of the population and the voters. Do women vote for women canditates?????

    This is hugely offtopic, so all I'll say is that yep, there are lots of reasons why 87% of the Dail is male. And it's not because 'all women are oppressed'. I never said that, I don't think it, it wasn't my point. I mentioned that 87% of the Dail was male because some people seemed to be suggesting that males are excluded from political power in Ireland and that's plainly nonsense.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    A very crude political analysis - but these two private individuals Martin & McKay who are not elected to the Dail probably have more power than most government ministers.

    And they are huge movers and shakers on deciding justice policy towards women in Ireland and family law and social policy too.

    They are not responsible to any electorate or constituency anywhere, cannot be questioned by the opposition in the Dail or any of the other bits and pieces in a democracy.

    Did you vote them in?????

    And maybe its not that crime among women has increased but maybe more women are getting caught and convicted.

    So the Criminal Justice system is not anti women and women dont need protection or special treatment by it. Its against people who break the law and what kind of public servants or private organisations do affect law enforcement.

    Where are the laws and enforcement against female lawbreakers??


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    CDfm wrote: »



    I have highlighted a part of its Mission Statement where it says it is a political organisation but it does not put up candidates. It presumably feels it does better lobbying other political organisations and government agencies.

    The cynic in me says the second part of the Mission Statement is how it raises money to fund these objectives.

    So it is not other peoples with "meat and two veg" fault if the biggest womens political organisation operate with that policy.

    My question

    Forgetting about your like or dislike for individuals, why shouldn't they have this policy, mission statement, call it what you will. I see no reason, that they shouldn't have this as a stated aim, other than that it would be nice if they were including of men.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    CDfm wrote: »

    They are not responsible to any electorate or constituency anywhere, cannot be questioned by the opposition in the Dail or any of the other bits and pieces in a democracy.


    lobby groups have existed since the birth of democracy. In fact I would go as far to say that since the foundation of the democratic system, lobby groups have become as much a necessary part of the system as the politicians chamber. Thats not to say that I agree totally with some of methods used by lobbying organisations, and that the influence of them should be carefully monitored, but it is the case that many good things also come from lobbying for certain groups.

    Where are the laws and enforcement against female lawbreakers??

    The laws are in the same place as all the other laws. There aren't special ones for girls. As for enforcement, I've not seen any stats to back up any of the arguments that its any different for men and women, at least in matters of a serious nature.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    My question

    Forgetting about your like or dislike for individuals, why shouldn't they have this policy, mission statement, call it what you will. I see no reason, that they shouldn't have this as a stated aim, other than that it would be nice if they were including of men.

    When a lobby group has such an influence there are a lot of potential problems. I read an article by Erin Pizzey who founded Womens Aid UK and opened the first Womens Hostel and she has been fairly adament that men and women both abuse and has been since the 70s.


    Some studies estimate that up to 43% of child abusers are Women. Now I have lazily taken a wiki link here.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_s...dult_offenders

    Adult offenders

    Demographics

    Offenders are more likely to be relatives or acquaintances of their victim than strangers.[104] A 2006–2007 Idaho study of 430 cases found that 82% of juvenile sex offenders were known to the victims (acquaintances 46% or relatives 36%).[105][106]
    More offenders are male than female, though the percentage varies between studies. The percentage of incidents of sexual abuse by female perpetrators that come to the attention of the legal system is usually reported to be between 1% and 4%.[107] Studies of sexual misconduct in US schools with female offenders have shown mixed results with rates between 4% to 43% of female offenders.[108] Maletzky (1993) found that, of his sample of 4,402 convicted pedophilic offenders, 0.4% were female.[109] Another study of a non-clinical population found that, among those in the their sample that had been molested, as much as a third were molested by women.[110]
    In U.S. schools, educators who offend range in age from "21 to 75 years old, with an average age of 28" with teachers, coaches, substitute teachers, bus drivers and teacher's aides (in that order) totaling 69% of the offenders.[111]
    Now if you take the way the system in Ireland operates (after the Roscommon Case)the law has not been updated since 1908 and the maximum sentence available to the Judge was 7 years for a Woman as opposed to a life sentence for a man.
    Now I would assume that Irish female abusers would be similar in numbers to those of the UK and here is part of Childlines UK Press Statement.
    Gender-blindness on child sexual abuse

    The myth that sexual abuse is rarely committed by women is sadly contradicted as more boys are calling ChildLine to report


    It is always particularly shocking when a woman abuses a child. Myra Hindley, Baby Peter's mother Tracey Connelly and now the Plymouth nursery assistant Vanessa George, inspired a very special horror. We hope that women have a natural maternal instinct to protect and nurture all children, but alas, in some cases, that instinct is perverted into terrible cruelty.
    The figures released by ChildLine demonstrate that sexual abuse by women is not nearly as rare as we would hope. There has been a dramatic rise in the number of women reported by child callers to ChildLine as abusers. This rise is partly due to the fact that many more boys are ringing us.
    When we opened our lines 23 years ago, four times more girls than boys called the helpline. So we specifically targeted boys, hoping to reassure them that it was not a sign of weakness to ask for help with a difficult or painful problem. We knew that the imbalance could not be explained by the fact that boys encountered fewer problems than girls. Suicide is the biggest single cause of death for boys in their late teens and early 20s, even outnumbering deaths in road accidents.
    So ChildLine counsellors believed that far too many boys and young men were reluctant to disclose a problem until it became so overwhelming that they felt life was not worth living. That is why we have focused on boys – with so much success that the number counselled has reached an all-time high of more than 58,000.
    Last year, more than half the boys who rang disclosing sexual abuse reported that they had been abused by women. The most common female perpetrator – in almost 1,000 cases – was the boy's mother. Among the boys who reported being sexually abused by a man (almost the same number of callers), the most common perpetrator was the father – again, in about 1,000 incidents. Both shocking statistics.

    Now I am not having a pop at Women here but the statistics used to form Irelands social policy and strategy were largely provided by the feminist movement.

    Thats why I am saying hold on a sec -if they have such an input into social policy and withold information that has resulted in people being abused or jailed or worse as Esther Rantzen says male suicide. Then its not a good thing.

    I would suspect that more information on these and other issues is available to and has been compiled by the groups than has been disclosed by them.It is a very reasonable assumption given that the studies are academic studies.

    So rather than avoid the issue we should be opening it up.

    I only picked the child abuse issue because it was the one closest to hand but you get my drift.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    not wanting to be smart CDfm but you haven't answered my question.

    I asked specifiically what is wrong with the stated aims and mission statement of Womens Aid, as you specifically referenced it and commented on it in your previous posting.

    Although you brought in the pieces on child abuse because they were "close to hand", they aren't related to what I asked really, and imho are possibly going to divert this to yet another sub-topic.

    I agree that too much influence from any lobby group is not a good thing. What evidence to we have, that suports the claim that Womens Aid have such an influence. I would contest that its not that they have too much, but more than there is no similar Mens Aid organisation to balance things for men. Thats hardly Womens Aid's fault now is it?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭S.L.F


    PopUp wrote: »
    Hey no disagreement there. I am in complete agreement. I just don't think that this was a) typical or b) important in the grand scheme of things. Men are not excluded from power in Ireland. I think this was a bad way to go about things, but I don't think it should be blown out of proportion.

    Sorry I keep going on about this but as far as you are concerned it is not important but to me it is, the men and women who were represented by the male TDs were not at that meeting because they were men and this is wrong.

    David Norris who I respect and admire did not get a proper answer to the question and all you have said is that it was not important, nothing else.

    If it was so unimportant why was it necesary to have TDs at the meeting.
    PopUp wrote: »
    This is hugely offtopic, so all I'll say is that yep, there are lots of reasons why 87% of the Dail is male. And it's not because 'all women are oppressed'. I never said that, I don't think it, it wasn't my point. I mentioned that 87% of the Dail was male because some people seemed to be suggesting that males are excluded from political power in Ireland and that's plainly nonsense.

    I hope you are not suggesting that I said men are not in power in govt because I did not say that what I have been hinting at is the comparison between what people view as important.

    I'm pretty sure that if a male senator had stood and said it during session there would have been uproar and the senator would have been forced to resign, but because it is a woman it is deemed not important.


  • Registered Users Posts: 376 ✭✭Treora


    PopUp wrote: »
    Myra Hindley is the most prominent case .. Her two life sentences were much harsher than a man convicted of the same would have expected...

    when you look at the likes of the so-called 'Scissor Sisters'. And Catherine Nevin - there has literally never been such a circus in Ireland as that which surrounded her public lynching...

    The most prominent false rape case in Ireland was pursued against a woman who turned out to be innocent as well - Nora Wall. She was vigorously prosecuted, convicted in the public mind, and demonised...

    The fact is that despite what the more irate callers to the likes of Joe Duffy would have you believe...

    It's also very important to remember that the people sentencing women lightly and men harshly (if they are doing so, and we really have no evidence beyond the anecdotal for saying so) are mostly men themselves. 89% of High Court judges are male...

    Because we love nothing more than Burning The Witch, when the opportunity presents itself.

    Popup you are right when it comes to the media prejudging the situation and publicly lynching someone, but who buys the most media especially for gossip stories about girls con crazy. Not men, they look at the footie and page three or the business pages. Hence the Nora Wall effect.

    The discussion is about real prison sentences and not about media sentences. Ian Brady got a longer sentence and asked not to be released, one of his judges said "this is the case if ever there is to be one when a man should stay in prison till he dies". Myra said to the press "I ought to have been hanged. I deserved it. My crime was worse than Brady's because I enticed the children and they would never have entered the car without my role [...] I have always regarded myself as worse than Brady."

    No man in Ireland has done anything like the 'Scissor Sisters'. And Catherine Nevin got a comparatively light sentence to a man that has orchestrated a similar crime.

    The most severe critics of women are women. Be it the few female justices (look at Judge Judy and how she warned a man that his ex-wife was playing him for custody of their child by bring a nuisance case before her so the media could spin him) or women in juries that place some of the blame on women that they claim "led the criminal on". Male jurists in rape cases want to bury the perpetrator not the victim (hero complex).

    And you are right about burning a witch. Stories like "The Crucible" are prime and literal examples. It is normally women that are the b**chiest to other women.

    Men rarely rant on Joe Duffy screaming about a false flag and wanting the law changed to protect his child after reading one article in the Spindo. Women however are great at getting swept up in misinformed action groups to gossip. Perhaps the a more rigorous policing of the media! But then the gossip columns would be gone and how could we prejudge the pretty girls. Oh well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    not wanting to be smart CDfm but you haven't answered my question.

    I asked specifiically what is wrong with the stated aims and mission statement of Womens Aid, as you specifically referenced it and commented on it in your previous posting.

    The statement is at odds with its delivery. I believe that the occupancy of its shelters is approx 50% travellers or people with other problems which does not reflect all sectors of society.So if its policies are based on its client group how valid are they to the rest of society as it is hardly representative.

    It deals with heterosexual women in relationships and by defination it excludes , women in same, sex relationships, young women being abused by another female mother or grandmother or other relative, or elderly women. So it restricts its client services to a rigid and defined group and only where there is abuse by a male.
    Although you brought in the pieces on child abuse because they were "close to hand", they aren't related to what I asked really, and imho are possibly going to divert this to yet another sub-topic.

    That was really to show that there is evidence of female perpetrators so they dont have a model to fit that group. If you go by the demographic of its client group based on its sheltered housing occupancy it should have knowledge of female violence.


    I agree that too much influence from any lobby group is not a good thing. What evidence to we have, that suports the claim that Womens Aid have such an influence. I would contest that its not that they have too much, but more than there is no similar Mens Aid organisation to balance things for men. Thats hardly Womens Aid's fault now is it?

    Based on who it excludes and its political activity and profile is very much middle class whereas its client group is from a different group. Say its ads or studies never point out that its studies are based on a certain demographic. You would never see a traveller family or halting site depicted in the ads or a traveller voice in their media ads.

    With its gender based approach and given that mutual violence accounts for a third of violence and female initiated violence is approximately half -its a cloud cuckoo land view of the world.

    It also has no programme for female offenders which is a big gap in its service so it relies on a male perpetrator model.

    I dont know if I am expressing it properly but it doesnt make sense to me as a service delivery model but it does make sense if you have a political agenda or are in competition for funding with other organisations. Then the model makes sense.

    So no it doesn't make sense to me.

    It also makes sense to me in the context that a woman should get a lesser sentence than a man. Does this mean that women are mentally feeble or less well able to distinguish right from wrong or should be held less accountable for their actions. Maybe I am thick but I dont understand this and it doesnt make sense to me unless people are telling whoppers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    rer34 wrote: »
    her mother used hav 2 sleep with her in case her brother would try and kill her in her sleep... her parents had to sneak her out of a house through a window that he had locked her up in before .... all the family including her parents were afraid of the brother.... her father pleaded with the court not to jail her

    the newspaper reports did not resemble what was heard in court.

    I missed posting a response to this -maybe this is the case i do not know and i dont know anything about the case other than what i got on the car radio.

    it is possible all this happened

    there are some people out there who are right nutters and i know of a family that were terrorised that way by a young pup but the parents would not take the steps to get the gardai and courts involved.

    but there also is a duty to retreat if possible under the law which is why is the case with a reasonable force defence

    There was a case of Paidraig Nally and the Traveller Frog Ward where the farmer was freed on appeal 12 months into a 6 year sentence.

    I am just a bit cynical about the use of the battered womans defence and how its used thats all especially in ireland and I feel that defense is open to abuse.

    The jury had the opportunity to acquit but didnt so they must not have believed her.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    PopUp wrote: »
    Not quite the same crime - they had very different roles:
    These are different levels of involvement and planning - doesn't seem unreasonable that difference could be reflected in sentencing.

    This is the problem with isolated anecdotes - in every case there are so many different circumstances that you can't generalise out from just it.

    Pfft! They were charged with the same crime. They were both involved and complicit. They were working together.

    "isolated anecdotes":eek:.
    There is nothing anecdotal about this at all. I quoted and referenced the case.
    I don't believe it's isolated. I'm sure that if we search the casebooks we will find more crimes committed by couples and then we can assess their relative sentencing. I meerly pointed to the closest and most recent match I found. An example was required and I've shown one.

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    CDfm wrote: »
    The statement is at odds with its delivery. I believe that the occupancy of its shelters is approx 50% travellers or people with other problems which does not reflect all sectors of society.So if its policies are based on its client group how valid are they to the rest of society as it is hardly representative.

    It deals with heterosexual women in relationships and by defination it excludes , women in same, sex relationships, young women being abused by another female mother or grandmother or other relative, or elderly women. So it restricts its client services to a rigid and defined group and only where there is abuse by a male.

    Your issue appears to be with Womens Aid and what it does. The fact that the organisation doesn't represent ALL sectors of society in moot tbh as from what you posted as their mission statement, they don't claim to represent everyone. Only a subset of the population and only on certain issues. I still fail to see what your issue is?

    Is it that you would LIKE them to be more representative? Sure that like saying I'd like all sorts of things. They have defined themselves,and from what your saying, they stick to it.


    With its gender based approach and given that mutual violence accounts for a third of violence and female initiated violence is approximately half -its a cloud cuckoo land view of the world.

    It also has no programme for female offenders which is a big gap in its service so it relies on a male perpetrator model.

    according to who? you?

    They don't claim to be representative of all sections of the abuse spectrum. They cleraly state that they are looking out for women victims. Just because you don't like this, and would like them to be more inclusive doesn't mean they should be. You can't be all things to all men ya know.
    I dont know if I am expressing it properly but it doesnt make sense to me as a service delivery model but it does make sense if you have a political agenda or are in competition for funding with other organisations. Then the model makes sense.

    Of course it makes sense, or else they wouldn't be operating. Your probably right in saying that they are in somewhat of a competition for funding with other groups. All advocacy groups are to a large extent, no matter what the guiding principles. Pretty much every advocacy group I've had dealings with, have to look at how they run, organise and direct themselves in order to achive funding to reach their goals. Its hardly something limited to Womens AOd, and thus, is unfair to pick on them for doing it too.

    It also makes sense to me in the context that a woman should get a lesser sentence than a man. Does this mean that women are mentally feeble or less well able to distinguish right from wrong or should be held less accountable for their actions. Maybe I am thick but I dont understand this and it doesnt make sense to me unless people are telling whoppers.

    Evidence that this is happening?

    You know me CDfm, for fecks sake I'm a Mod on a science forum. We're all about the evidence and the research there. I'm totally open minded about things, once someone can show me the proof. When that happens you won't have a bigger supporter than me. So far though, all I've seen is hearsay and personal opinion, which isn't enough for me to be convinced.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Jeez MM are you going all wussy feminist on me. What next MM mod on tLL.

    I dont have any issue other than that its the dominant model which is accepted by the state institutions and something like 99% of funding for support of abuse victims follows it. So its a near monopoly situation and its being abused by WA.

    I am very supportive of victims in this situation, female, male, old and young, irrespective of gender or orientation.

    So yes - Womens Aid has been hugely successful and I can see how it has been and understand it but i have to say based on what I know they are not representative of women or of society.

    There is a lot of spin. I have difficulty in reconciling their political work with their victim work and feel the budget for one is exploited for the other.

    Now this is from a guy who was a supporter - and I would like to think still am a supporter of womens rights. I think lots of guys exposed to the system switch off when we see how it works in practice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    ah ya see now we're getting down to it.

    So its not Womens Aids fault as such, moreso that the "competition" for funding hasn't been great.

    So whats to stop a Mens Aid advocacy group from being set up?

    Also, is there political activism not directly linked to their victim work? i.e one being used to further the overall cause, which in this case is the rights of women suffering abuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    oh and btw, I wouldn't be questioning your views on the horribleness of domestic abuse. You've gone on record here many times stating that your against it, in any form, and against any gender. I see this as a very separate debate my man, so don't feel like you have to defend your views there to me anyway


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    oh and btw, I wouldn't be questioning your views on the horribleness of domestic abuse. You've gone on record here many times stating that your against it, in any form, and against any gender. I see this as a very separate debate my man, so don't feel like you have to defend your views there to me anyway

    Thanks MM


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    ah ya see now we're getting down to it.

    So its not Womens Aids fault as such, moreso that the "competition" for funding hasn't been great.

    So whats to stop a Mens Aid advocacy group from being set up?

    Also, is there political activism not directly linked to their victim work? i.e one being used to further the overall cause, which in this case is the rights of women suffering abuse.

    Not really, I think that abuse is not gender based and the gender model adopted in Ireland by the State in the Court system, Family Law and Social Policy is based on this gender model.

    So in my view the gender based model of male abuser in a heterosexual relationship is wrong. It does not stand up to scrutiny as a hypotheses on which to base a system.

    That is what I disagree with.

    So naturally that being the case it follows that I will disagree with the organisation putting forward that theory - in the very same way I would disagree with someone putting forward creationism over Darwinism.

    So the gender based theories are to me what creationism would be to you.Does that make sense??


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭kangaroo


    OldGoat wrote: »
    I don't believe it's isolated. I'm sure that if we search the casebooks we will find more crimes committed by couples and then we can assess their relative sentencing. I meerly pointed to the closest and most recent match I found. An example was required and I've shown one.
    Here's a case from 2008 where I thought the sentencing was unbalanced.

    http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2008/03/13/story57674.asp
    AN EGYPTIAN consultant surgeon, who fraudulently took €750,000 from insurance companies by claiming his wife had breast cancer, has been jailed for four years.

    His wife, a nurse, was given a three-year suspended sentence for her part in the fraud in which the couple used a tissue sample from a member of their family who had just been diagnosed in Egypt as having breast cancer.

    [..]
    Judge Patrick McCartan at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court described the couple’s crime as “a particularly evil and nasty offence”.

    The judge suspended Gehan Massoud’s sentence because he said he did not want both parents of their family to be incarcerated at the same time.

    Speaking after the sentencing, Detective Superintendent Eugene Gallagher said the Massouds’ crime was motivated by greed: “It was simply a way of making money.”
    I think splitting the sentence a bit would have been fairer e.g. send the wife to jail for a year (say), while the husband minds the children, and then the husband then served his sentence, perhaps minus the bit the wife served.

    Why should nothing be cut off the husband's sentence but the whole of the wife's sentence be suspended (i.e. no time in jail for her) because the judge "did not want both parents of their family to be incarcerated at the same time"?


  • Registered Users Posts: 651 ✭✭✭kangaroo


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0514/mclaughline.html
    Mr Justice Barry White said he wanted some guidance on the sentences given to the very few women previously convicted of manslaughter. He said he would sentence Kelly Noble on Thursday week.

    I'm not sure he would have said this if he planned to give the person who committed the crime a harsher sentence because of her gender; it seems much more likely that he said it as (although it isn't explicitly mentioned???) women tend to get lighter sentences.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Does anyone know if there are sentencing guidelines that Judges use.what factors can be used in mitigation and how are these arrived at,

    Just say for instance, that the fact that a woman may have been abused may be a mitigating factor when arriving at a sentence or the primary carer.

    Should we also not consider what factors are taken in account in sentencing men. We may be looking at this the wrong way and being a bit hissy fitty about it.

    The other thing is women are not disinterested parties when looking at sentencing either. Say if a woman has a child knocked down by a female drunk driver then she will want to see the driver jailed too.

    The idea that most women are against jailing other women does not seem right to me.I don't think this is true and is a misrepresentation by politicians.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1255029/This-mother-just-wanted-happy-home-adorable-troubled-foster-girl-It-nearly-destroyed-sanity-.html




    Chastened: But Colette says she hasn't ruled out fostering again
    Sometimes, the spine-tingling scream of her four-year-old son William still echoes through Colette Smith's mind, and she vividly recalls how she found him sobbing in the kitchen as he cradled the broken body of his pet guinea pig.


    Alongside him, his foster sister Katie simply stared at the dead creature, devoid of any emotion.

    Through wracking sobs, William told his mother that Katie had smashed his pet against a wall and killed it.

    Today, many months on, this distressing scene still makes Colette shudder. Yet it was not an isolated incident.


    In fact, it was the culmination of months of turmoil, all of it dating back to the day a few years ago when Colette had welcomed the pretty and boisterous eight-year-old Katie into her home, determined to give this disadvantaged child a new and better start in life.



    I saw this article on line when the Jon Venables arrest was up.



    Its from the Daily Mail. Now the mother went on to say that she feared for the safety of her son. Contrast that with Jon Venables who was 10 when arrested for a horrific crime or check out Mary Bell another juvenille killer.



    If the powers that be sent Venables to Broadmoor there would be some validation of public opinion.



    Now I am not seeking to demonise just get some realism in how we percieve men and women and boys and girls.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    Now I am not seeking to demonise just get some realism in how we percieve men and women and boys and girls.
    What are little boys made of?
    Snips and snails, and puppy dogs tails
    That's what little boys are made of !"
    What are little girls made of?
    "Sugar and spice and all things nice
    That's what little girls are made of!"

    [It is thought Snips and snails was originally "Snips of snails"]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I thought it was rats and snails or at least thats what a told my daughter. I alway thought it was a cool rhyme as guys find these things funny.

    We really need a poll on gender attitudes here.

    Thinks .

    Do you find farts funny? That should do it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    I thought it was rats and snails or at least thats what a told my daughter.
    Yes, have just searched and that comes up a bit as well.
    CDfm wrote: »
    I alway thought it was a cool rhyme as guys find these things funny.
    I remember being annoyed by it. My sister was no angel and as I mentioned in another thread, would occasionally deliberately hurt me (nothing serious so I usually didn't say anything to my parents or they ignored it). I on the other occasionally hurt her (which mightn't be much) by accident and she'd often run to our parents. The "court" seemed designed to favour her.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    iptba wrote: »
    I on the other occasionally hurt her (which mightn't be much) by accident and she'd often run to our parents. The "court" seemed designed to favour her.

    All kids do that - my daughter used to do the same with my son. One day I am looking out the back and there are these twacks and anguished stop etc. She was in the garden by herself.

    But get over yourself - what is she like as an adult.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    CDfm wrote: »
    So the gender based theories are to me what creationism would be to you.Does that make sense??

    So MM -you have gone quiet....:p


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,862 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    All kids do that - my daughter used to do the same with my son. One day I am looking out the back and there are these twacks and anguished stop etc. She was in the garden by herself.
    The thing is that such attitudes and the way boys and girls are treated might carry forward into adulthood. For example, victimhood, attitudes to reporting of abuse by members of the opposite gender, etc.

    A female friend of mine said in sixth class in her school in the 80s, the boys got the cane, the girls did not.

    P.S. I would prefer when sharing something from my life not to be told to "get over yourself".


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