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Gender, going to jail, male victims, etc.: the Caroline Brennan case, etc.

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  • Options
    #32
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    iptba wrote: »
    I do not see why I should not be allowed point out that I think there may be a gender equality issue, whatever preferences you (or other individuals) might have.

    Hey,I agree with you on the factual arguments.

    That said, what concerns me is that it gets viewed as a gender issue and that the perpetrators get punished and that the punishments suits the crime. Punishments should be equally harsh for both.

    If in the Lillis case he had gotten a suspended sentence I would have been shocked as I am shocked by this case. Its rotten justice for the victim.


  • Options
    #33
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    Hey,I agree with you on the factual arguments.

    That said, what concerns me is that it gets viewed as a gender issue and that the perpetrators get punished and that the punishments suits the crime. Punishments should be equally harsh for both.

    If in the Lillis case he had gotten a suspended sentence I would have been shocked as I am shocked by this case. Its rotten justice for the victim.
    Thanks for that. The suggestion I'm making is that one factor in discrepancies in sentencing (I'm not talking about these two cases specifically) might be gender. It looks like there is statistical evidence that it could be the case in one or more other countries (and perhaps in Ireland if that Law Society report exists).


  • Options
    #34
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    iptba wrote: »
    Thanks for that. The suggestion I'm making is that one factor in discrepancies in sentencing (I'm not talking about these two cases specifically) might be gender. It looks like there is enough evidence that it could be the case in one or more other countries.

    Yes but I don't believe that men should escape punishment because women are.

    So if lack of accomadation is being used as an excuse or there are sentencing guidelines giving lenient sentences then that should be questioned.


  • Options
    #35
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    Yes but I don't believe that men should escape punishment because women are.
    Neither do I.
    CDfm wrote: »
    So if lack of accomadation is being used as an excuse or there are sentencing guidelines giving lenient sentences then that should be questioned.
    I agree.

    Senator Ivana Bacik on the other hand believes:
    "Women are a particularly vulnerable prison population and there is a strong case for abolishing prisons for them and replacing them with small custodial units for just a small number of people who have committed crimes of violence,” Senator Bacik said, in advance of her address.
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhgbcwsngbid/

    Advocacy like that may mean there is not sufficient prison size for female prisoners. Also, it appears that if you're a woman, only crimes of violence should mean you should go to jail. I've no problem if people are consistent and say only certain crimes should result in jail. I have a problem with the gender of defendant being a significant factor in sentencing.


  • Options
    #36
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Nasty_Girl wrote: »
    Man kills drug addict man

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0314/sutcliffej.html

    Guilty of Manslaughter, suspended sentence.

    Perhaps you get a suspended sentence if you stab a drug addict.
    Thanks for the link.

    I just got around to reading some media reports on the first case (which is from 2005 – there have been a lot of men sent to jail since then).

    Maybe this man should have gone to jail too but I think there are some differences.


    He stabbed him once in the abdomen which is different to stabbing somebody in the heart i.e. doesn’t look like he was trying to kill him.

    He “believed he had only nicked Mr Sutcliffe” and he said the man ran away http://breaking.tcm.ie/archives/2005/0215/ireland/court-hears-of-fatima-mansions-murder-accuseds-remorse-189477.html

    And when the victim showed it to a woman after:

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2005/0210/ireland/witness-not-sorry-murder-victim-was-killed-188808.html

    (a woman said) "There was blood coming out of his nose. He lifted up his top and there was a tiny wound, but it wasn’t bleeding."

    This all suggests that it doesn’t look like he was trying to kill him which is different from the Caroline Brennan case where she stabbed him in the heart.


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    #37
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The law is the law is the law but some times the law is an ass.

    Yes men are women are treated differently under the law and when it comes to being found guilty and sentencing.

    Why? cos society treats men and women differently based on a range of things.

    1 that men have testosterone.
    This one bites both sexes in the ass as far as I am concerned.
    Men are presumed to be more aggressive there for dangerous and there for more of a threat and women are not. This is such a double edged issue, it means that while men are more of a threat it is more 'natural' for a man to lash out phyically and the boys will be boys card is often played and it means that a woman taking the same action as a man is seen as unnatural.

    2 women are still seen as the default carers so that sending a woman to jail means that the people who are dependent on her care suffer, were as sending a man to jail means that a family may be down money but sure we are a welfare state. This is pretty damaging to both sexes imho.

    I do think that it can often looks like that women get lighter sentences with it comes to minor offenses but also when a woman breaks the taboos she can face harsher sentences then a man in the same circumstances.

    It is skewed, society is skewed and we aren't all equal in the eyes of the law.


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    #38
    Raze_them_all
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,477 ✭✭✭✭Raze_them_all


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The law is the law is the law but some times the law is an ass.

    Yes men are women are treated differently under the law and when it comes to being found guilty and sentencing.

    Why? cos society treats men and women differently based on a range of things.

    1 that men have testosterone.
    This one bites both sexes in the ass as far as I am concerned.
    Men are presumed to be more aggressive there for dangerous and there for more of a threat and women are not. This is such a double edged issue, it means that while men are more of a threat it is more 'natural' for a man to lash out phyically and the boys will be boys card is often played and it means that a woman taking the same action as a man is seen as unnatural.

    2 women are still seen as the default carers so that sending a woman to jail means that the people who are dependent on her care suffer, were as sending a man to jail means that a family may be down money but sure we are a welfare state. This is pretty damaging to both sexes imho.

    I do think that it can often looks like that women get lighter sentences with it comes to minor offenses but also when a woman breaks the taboos she can face harsher sentences then a man in the same circumstances.

    It is skewed, society is skewed and we aren't all equal in the eyes of the law.

    Would bringing a knife to your brothers place then stabbing him in the heart not be considered a bit of a taboo???


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    #39
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I don't know that details of that case, crazy people get off with a lot due to be crazy no matter thier gender.


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    #40
    nkay1985
    Registered Users Posts: 6,975 ✭✭✭nkay1985


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The law is the law is the law but some times the law is an ass.

    Yes men are women are treated differently under the law and when it comes to being found guilty and sentencing.

    Why? cos society treats men and women differently based on a range of things.

    1 that men have testosterone.
    This one bites both sexes in the ass as far as I am concerned.
    Men are presumed to be more aggressive there for dangerous and there for more of a threat and women are not. This is such a double edged issue, it means that while men are more of a threat it is more 'natural' for a man to lash out phyically and the boys will be boys card is often played and it means that a woman taking the same action as a man is seen as unnatural.

    2 women are still seen as the default carers so that sending a woman to jail means that the people who are dependent on her care suffer, were as sending a man to jail means that a family may be down money but sure we are a welfare state. This is pretty damaging to both sexes imho.

    I do think that it can often looks like that women get lighter sentences with it comes to minor offenses but also when a woman breaks the taboos she can face harsher sentences then a man in the same circumstances.

    It is skewed, society is skewed and we aren't all equal in the eyes of the law.


    I think that's a very good post. But I'm just wondering what you mean by the piece highlighted in bold. You must have one or two particular examples in your mind to make you think that way so I'd just be interested to hear them so I could form my own opinion.

    I don't think the sentencing issue is as simple as being gender-specific. Two men might commit the same crime. One man comes from an upstanding family with a good address. The other's family has a history of crime and are from a rough part of town. I'd feel that those two men will not get the same sentence. I think human nature and human considerations come into play when human judges are making the decision.


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    #41
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    but also when a woman breaks the taboos she can face harsher sentences then a man in the same circumstances.

    We are not talking about taboo's here we are talking about crimes.

    Have you got examples of what these taboos might be

    For example, whats this reduction in sentence for motherhood.

    It sounds very like Anne Bonny the pirate "pleading her belly" ( getting a death sentence reprieve for pregnancy.

    The other thing is that when a woman is violent or a drug addict or what would she be doing minding kids.

    Would you allow the Brennan woman mind your kids or more importantly set her or her cousin up on a blind date with your brother.


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    #42
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    CDfm wrote: »
    We are not talking about taboo's here we are talking about crimes.

    Have you got examples of what these taboos might be

    Behaving in an unlady like manner or unnaturally for a woman.
    We have legally and culturally a lot of conservative hang over from Victorian times, and also crimes which women can't be charged with as women don't or can't 'do' that sort of thing, which is very wrong.
    CDfm wrote: »
    For example, whats this reduction in sentence for motherhood.

    There is not a specific laid out reduction, it is one of the factors which judges can take into consideration when sentencing.
    CDfm wrote: »
    It sounds very like Anne Bonny the pirate "pleading her belly" ( getting a death sentence reprieve for pregnancy.

    That happens but also in the usa women have had to give birth alone in cells and in some cases shackled to beds in the hospital wards in prisons and that's not pretty either.
    CDfm wrote: »
    The other thing is that when a woman is violent or a drug addict or what would she be doing minding kids.

    That I don't understand either, I have seen two junkie parents with 3 kids en-tow going to get their methadone and already being drunk shoving the bugging along at 10am. Social services need a reform care orders are too hard to get and there are not enough foster parents and places for children.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Would you allow the Brennan woman mind your kids or more importantly set her or her cousin up on a blind date with your brother.

    Would you?


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    #43
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Behaving in an unlady like manner or unnaturally for a woman.

    Killing someone is very unlady like.
    We have legally and culturally a lot of conservative hang over from Victorian times, and also crimes which women can't be charged with as women don't or can't 'do' that sort of thing, which is very wrong.

    Is child abuse what you have in mind?


    There is not a specific laid out reduction, it is one of the factors which judges can take into consideration when sentencing.

    Well it probably should not be IMHO.


    That happens but also in the usa women have had to give birth alone in cells and in some cases shackled to beds in the hospital wards in prisons and that's not pretty either.

    This is not the USA but it is punishment and probably a deterant.

    I mean you had a dude in the USA on probation getting a life sentence under the 3 strikes rule for stealing a slice of pizza.


    That I don't understand either, I have seen two junkie parents with 3 kids en-tow going to get their methadone and already being drunk shoving the bugging along at 10am. Social services need a reform care orders are too hard to get and there are not enough foster parents and places for children.

    Reform - ahem - when you give the social welfare arbitrary powers. Bunch of do goody goody incompetants.


    Would you?

    My brother probably but my son no;)


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    #44
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    CDfm wrote: »
    Killing someone is very unlady like.

    Yes and despite there being more women then men it seems that men do more unlawful killing then women, but there is also societal that for a woman to reach such appoint they are irrational and emotional to know what they are doing.

    The FBI consider women invovled with armed situations to be more of a treath then men as they will have broke more taboos and societal conditioning in order to be in that situation.

    Then there is the data or huge lack there of detailing female serial killers,
    this one I am dubious about, I don't think they are as rare, I do think that given the place of women as carers that they could be just better at hiding their tracks and people don't ask the right questions.

    CDfm wrote: »
    Is child abuse what you have in mind?

    I was thinking on the lack of proper charges and sentencing re incest and rape.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Well it probably should not be IMHO.

    I think parental status should but that it should both be presumed that either parent is the main carer due to gender.
    CDfm wrote: »
    This is not the USA but it is punishment and probably a deterant.

    It's endangerment.
    CDfm wrote: »
    Reform - ahem - when you give the social welfare arbitrary powers. Bunch of do goody goody incompetants.

    They are bound to investigate all reports, pain in the arse when someone uses that system purely to cause upset but there are cases where there is not enough people and resources to help children in dire need.
    Like the woman who tried to hand her kids over and no one would take them and then she went and drowned herself and them, or they don't' intervene until the child is irreparably damaged.
    CDfm wrote: »
    My brother probably but my son no

    How kind of you, poor lad has enough of a burden with you as his Dad :P


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    #45
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Nasty_Girl wrote: »
    But then this evil woman got a few years in jail for manslaughter.
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/womans-sentence-increased-in-taxi-driver-stabbing-case-446312.html
    The court found that this was a pre-mediated attack. The man she was with got murder.

    Not sure this case proves much except that there are women who have got manslaughter convinctions in Ireland who have gone to jail.

    Not sure why you use the term "evil". Without reading the article, readers of the GC might think she was hard-done-by.


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    #46
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    2 women are still seen as the default carers so that sending a woman to jail means that the people who are dependent on her care suffer, were as sending a man to jail means that a family may be down money but sure we are a welfare state. This is pretty damaging to both sexes imho.
    It's interesting that there is a payment called, "Prisoner's Wife's Allowance" http://www.welfare.ie/EN/OperationalGuidelines/Pages/prisonerswa.aspx
    Prisoner's Wife's Allowance is a means tested payment made to women under 66 years of age whose husband is in prison and who have no dependent children. Prisoner's Wife's Allowance was closed off to new applications with effect from 2 January 1997 when One-Parent Family Payment was introduced. Prisoner's Wife's Allowance was introduced in 1974."

    Here's another quote from this article:
    http://www.dvmen.org/dv-66.htm
    One commission recently justified giving women shorter sentences because women are often custodial parents. But the sentencing disparities persisted in the above studies that took family situations are accounted for. So even if custodial parenthood justifies a shorter sentence, courts are giving men longer sentences than women even when neither (or both) are custodial parents. Needless to say, when a father commits a crime, the courts have no trouble calling him an unfit parent and removing him from his kids.


  • Options
    #47
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    The law is the law is the law but some times the law is an ass.

    Yes men are women are treated differently under the law and when it comes to being found guilty and sentencing.

    Why? cos society treats men and women differently based on a range of things..
    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It is skewed, society is skewed and we aren't all equal in the eyes of the law.
    But aren't we told that this is the age of gender equality and government agencies and society should strive to treat everyone the same regardless of gender and that if there are for example statistics which show gender differences, that is portrayed as evidence of gender discrimination. There seems to be a lack of consistency.


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    #48
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    I don't know that details of that case, crazy people get off with a lot due to be crazy no matter thier gender.
    That may be so. But there is research evidence from abroad that gender appears to be a factor. (One person on another forum has mentioned an Irish report that found the same trend but I don't know what is talked about). It seems perfectly plausible that the same trend exists in Ireland.


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    #49
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    nkay1985 wrote: »
    I don't think the sentencing issue is as simple as being gender-specific. Two men might commit the same crime. One man comes from an upstanding family with a good address. The other's family has a history of crime and are from a rough part of town. I'd feel that those two men will not get the same sentence. I think human nature and human considerations come into play when human judges are making the decision.
    I accept there could be other factors that could influence sentencing. You may have heard of multi-variate analysis, logistic regression, etc - it is not unusual for various factors to play a part. But because there may be other factors, doesn't mean that gender isn't one of them.


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    #50
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Yes and despite there being more women then men it seems that men do more unlawful killing then women, but there is also societal that for a woman to reach such appoint they are irrational and emotional to know what they are doing.

    The FBI consider women invovled with armed situations to be more of a treath then men as they will have broke more taboos and societal conditioning in order to be in that situation.

    Then there is the data or huge lack there of detailing female serial killers,
    this one I am dubious about, I don't think they are as rare, I do think that given the place of women as carers that they could be just better at hiding their tracks and people don't ask the right questions.

    If jail is deterent let it be that way. Equal sentencing down the line.

    In the USA there has never been a gender balance on Death Row - now I know I often post like that as I wind up.

    Proportionately more men are convicted of murder than women.

    But in domestic violence situations I have read that where gender neutral studies are made the ratio is almost equal but certainly no greater than 60/40.



    I was thinking on the lack of proper charges and sentencing re incest and rape.

    Absolutely.

    I think parental status should but that it should both be presumed that either parent is the main carer due to gender.

    The person commiting the crime is already a parent and it has no bearing on it.


    It's endangerment.

    :eek:


    They are bound to investigate all reports, pain in the arse when someone uses that system purely to cause upset but there are cases where there is not enough people and resources to help children in dire need.
    Like the woman who tried to hand her kids over and no one would take them and then she went and drowned herself and them, or they don't' intervene until the child is irreparably damaged.

    They are about as useful as a condom machine in a convent

    How kind of you, poor lad has enough of a burden with you as his Dad :P

    Miow :p


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    #51
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    iptba wrote: »
    But aren't we told that this is the age of gender equality and government agencies and society should strive to treat everyone the same regardless of gender and that if there are for example statistics which show gender differences, that is portrayed as evidence of gender discrimination. There seems to be a lack of consistency.

    Yup, and what got it budget slashed by 43% oh yeah the Equality Authority
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/head-of-equality-authority-resigns-over-budget-cuts-390174.html


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    #52
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Yup, and what got it budget slashed by 43% oh yeah the Equality Authority
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/head-of-equality-authority-resigns-over-budget-cuts-390174.html

    i thought that was because they only represented 50% of the population.:p


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    #53
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Yup, and what got it budget slashed by 43% oh yeah the Equality Authority
    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/head-of-equality-authority-resigns-over-budget-cuts-390174.html
    But the Equality Authority is only one small part of those working in the "gender equality" area. For example, the researchers in third level institutions (Women's Studies Depts, Gender Studies Depts, etc), gender equality initiatives by statutory bodies e.g. Dept of justice, NGOs and their funding e.g. for women's groups, etc.

    It is also brought up by others despite specific direct funding.


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    #54
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Really The Gays are 50% of the population now?


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    #55
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    i was actually at caroline brennans trial as part of a college assignment. there is no way she should have gone to jail. she was barely 18 when this happend ... her brother had physically and emotionally abused her for years..including kidnapping her and tring to smother her in her sleep. she bought that knife with her in case her tried to hurt her and never ment to use it. he would not leave out of the house and she ran out with the knife in her hand and accidenlty stabbed him. anyone who was at the court felt sorry 4 her and hoped she would not get jail. my heart really went out to her.


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    #56
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    Neither do I.

    I agree.

    Senator Ivana Bacik on the other hand believes:
    "Women are a particularly vulnerable prison population and there is a strong case for abolishing prisons for them and replacing them with small custodial units for just a small number of people who have committed crimes of violence,” Senator Bacik said, in advance of her address.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhgbcwsngbid/

    Advocacy like that may mean there is not sufficient prison size for female prisoners. Also, it appears that if you're a woman, only crimes of violence should mean you should go to jail. I've no problem if people are consistent and say only certain crimes should result in jail. I have a problem with the gender of defendant being a significant factor in sentencing.[/QUOTE]Some people might think Ivana Bacik doesn't have much power. But she organised the following meeting in 2008 (from Seanad records)


    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=SEN20080520.XML&Dail=30&Ex=All&Page=3
    Senator Ivana Bacik:
    [..]
    This week, we are fortunate to receive a visit from Baroness Jean Corston from the British House of Lords who produced a very radical report last year on women in prison and who recommended, after a very thorough review, that prison places for women should essentially be abolished and that there should just be a small number of small detention units for women. Otherwise, alternative sanctions should be used. We could very much learn from the lessons of that report.

    I am happy to say that Baroness Corston will be visiting Leinster House on Thursday. Deputy Mary O’Rourke and I are hosting a meeting with her for all women Members of the Oireachtas. I am sorry that we cannot invite any male colleagues interested in this issue to the briefing with Baroness Corston.

    Senator David Norris: info.gif zoom.gif Why not?

    Senator Ivana Bacik: info.gif zoom.gif I would be happy to meet them to discuss the issues at another time.


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    #57
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Really The Gays are 50% of the population now?


    No men are,

    You are confusing this with the cuckoos nest. :D

    Maybe men dont want to go to jail for crimes too and will feel unfairly treated if they are jailed for an offence that a woman isnt.

    Its alll dreadfully confusing the concept that women will have no deterents.


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    #58
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    rer34 wrote: »
    i was actually at caroline brennans trial as part of a college assignment. there is no way she should have gone to jail. she was barely 18 when this happend ... her brother had physically and emotionally abused her for years..including kidnapping her and tring to smother her in her sleep. she bought that knife with her in case her tried to hurt her and never ment to use it. he would not leave out of the house and she ran out with the knife in her hand and accidenlty stabbed him. anyone who was at the court felt sorry 4 her and hoped she would not get jail. my heart really went out to her.

    I wasnt there - but I have serious doubts about the battered womans defence and its use as the deceased is not there to defend themselves.

    If I had the option to go somewhere that I needed a knife to feel safe for I would not go.

    IMHO - it takes the piss out of reasonable force and the obligation to "retreat" at law and turns it into attack being the best form of defence.

    Lets all tool up with shotguns and shoot burglars or people taking shortcuts through our gardens.


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    #59
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    CDfm wrote: »
    I wasnt there - but I have serious doubts about the battered womans defence and its use as the deceased is not there to defend themselves.
    I would probably have more sympathy with a battered women's defense if the defendant actually lived with the victim at the time of an incident.

    I don't know what happened but looking at the court coverage again, it doesn't give the impression the stabbing was an accident nor was this mentioned in sentencing amongst mitigating factors. She was the only defence witness.


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    #60
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    I look at it at a very basic level. If you look at a criminal defense in the same way you look at an American Football Match - then the defense has a list of possible defenses they can put up just like a playbook in the Superbowl which include

    Insanity · Immunity · Mental disorder
    Diminished responsibility
    Intoxication · Infancy
    Automatism · Alibi
    Consent · Mistake
    Duress · Necessity
    Provocation · Self defense
    False confession · Entrapment

    The issue I have with the Battered Woman Defense is that it is often uncollaborated and involves the perpetrator admitting the facts ie that they killed someone.

    What is the motivation to lie - well the average life sentence for a woman is 12 years in Ireland. So I imagine a person who would kill would find lying a doddle.

    So a few threats. How many times do we hear people even women say to kids " I'll kill you" with no intention of doing anything of the sort.

    I am not questioning that it can be a valid defense what I am questioning is that it is not challenged. So I think it is prosecutor laziness that allows it to occur.


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    #61
    LegacyUser
    Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    CDfm wrote: »
    I wasnt there - but I have serious doubts about the battered womans defence and its use as the deceased is not there to defend themselves.

    her mother used hav 2 sleep with her in case her brother would try and kill her in her sleep... her parents had to sneak her out of a house through a window that he had locked her up in before .... all the family including her parents were afraid of the brother.... her father pleaded with the court not to jail her

    the newspaper reports did not resemble what was heard in court.


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