Why are people so afraid of gay marriage?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 17-08-2009 7:04pm

People have a problem with gay adoption. If you granted marriage it would be discrimination to not allow adoption.

Iwasfrozen · 17-08-2009 7:28pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Why would anyone have a problem with gay adoption?

Because what people do in their own bedrooms is their own business, but not when you bring a child into the equation.

spurious · 17-08-2009 7:35pm

Do you think it would turn the child gay?

I'm not trying to be smart here. What is the negative effect people opposed to gay adoption think there would be?

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 7:57pm

Paddy C wrote: »

You don't, but unfortunately there are still a lot of narrow minded arsewipes out there who can't differentiate between 'homosexual' and 'paedophile' and are convinced if we got anywhere near a child that we'd try to molest it. They probably also think the marriage is a front to make it easier to get access to a child. :rolleyes:

True, remnants of old, conservative Catholic Ireland are still well and alive, especially in rural Ireland. I was having a discussion with my aunt last week and Catholicism came up. (She lives in a rural area.) She was talking about how she finds it a disgrace that people don't go to mass and how it was out of sheer laziness. :rolleyes: It's people like this (in particular the older generation) who may not have a strong public voice but colud have a "silent majority".

A lot of people would fear as well that if a child was raised by gay parents that they may turn out gay themselves, although if that was true then I (including most gay people) should be straight. :rolleyes:

cotwold · 17-08-2009 8:01pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because what people do in their own bedrooms is their own business, but not when you bring a child into the equation.

That's incredibly patronising, do you think being gay is all about what goes on in the bedroom?

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 8:03pm

Morlar wrote: »

Gay adoption would be the reason I would object too.

For what reasons though? Would you be concerned that a child would be reared to "have a gay lifestyle"?

I respect the fact you're opposed to it but you have to back it up with reasons as to why you are.

cotwold · 17-08-2009 8:05pm

MultiUmm wrote: »

I respect the fact you're opposed to it but you have to back it up with reasons as to why you are.

Aside from being uncomfortable with the notion.

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 8:08pm

cotwold wrote: »

That's incredibly patronising, do you think being gay is all about what goes on in the bedroom?

+ 1. How does "what goes on in the bedroom" have anything to do with bringing up a child? Opposite sex parents don't tell their children about "what goes on in the bedroom" until they're of an age to understand it, and even then they're hardly going to discuss their own sex lives with their kids, same thing for gay parents.

Aard · 17-08-2009 8:13pm

Tbh, I get the feeling that most people who say they are against gay marriage "just because of adoption rights" are using it as a cop out; the reality is that they have a deep-rooted dislike of the idea of two men showing love to each other. Sure, there are some who say that a child should have a mother and a father, but they're in the minority; most can't muster up anything beyond "it's unnatural for two men to be together".

Also, I can't help but notice that (in this country) it's primarily Christians who make the most noise anti-gay-marriage-wise. They didn't become homophobic, then gravitate to Christianity; rather, they became Christian and then became homophobic. This leads me to believe that all of this homophobia is conditioned, and that nobody is born homophobic. So, for me, the idea of homophobia is just as unnatural as the idea of homosexuality is for homophobes themselves.

ynotdu · 17-08-2009 8:34pm

I think it is both a common sense and a human rights issue.
how dare a society prevent ANY two consenting adults who love each other from their wish to publicly express it through marridge?

for children to be adopted by a gay couple is IMO a breach/betrayel of Their human rights as they cannot choose their parents and have no say.
Their is no doubt that these children would be the subject of snide remarks throughout their childhood as things stand.

children are born by and large by hetrosexual sex,it seems to be natures way of saying that a femine and masculine mix is best for balance.

Harsh though it may sound to gay couples but would,nt adopting a child almost guarantee that they would get way above average hurts in their formative years?

it is SO cruel to gay couples who have maternal/paternal instincts like everybody else,but i think it sadly is realism to say so.

philologos · 17-08-2009 8:49pm

Aard wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that adoption is the primary reason people don't want gay marriage.

+1

OP: It's not that I'm afraid of gay marriage. I just feel the civil partnership legislation is adequate.

ChocolateSauce · 17-08-2009 9:00pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because what people do in their own bedrooms is their own business, but not when you bring a child into the equation.

That doesn't answer the question. What does the sexual orientation of the adults have to do with the child? I'll cut the chase: Any answer other than "nothing" carries the insinuation that homosexuality is wrong.

Jakkass wrote:

I just feel the civil partnership legislation is adequate.

Most gay people don't. Considering it is about them, don't you think you should accede to their wishes?

philologos · 17-08-2009 9:04pm

I believe the child has the right to a mother and a father, and that this should be the preferrable family unit first and foremost.

Iwasfrozen · 17-08-2009 9:12pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe the child has the right to a mother and a father, and that this should be the preferrable family unit first and foremost.

+1. Nothing wrong with Gay adoption per say, just that it isn't the preferred method of Child rearing.

Iwasfrozen · 17-08-2009 9:13pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

That doesn't answer the question. What does the sexual orientation of the adults have to do with the child? I'll cut the chase: Any answer other than "nothing" carries the insinuation that homosexuality is wrong.

It has a lot to do with the child, it means that the child doesn't have access to both Male and Female role models.

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 9:37pm

for children to be adopted by a gay couple is IMO a breach/betrayel of Their human rights as they cannot choose their parents and have no say.
Their is no doubt that these children would be the subject of snide remarks throughout their childhood as things stand.

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you there. I don't expect children to understand homosexuality by themselves. In todays society they are either left ignorant or at worst they are taught to hate people for their sexual orientation outside of school life.
Proper education is needed on all aspects of sex and sexuality in schools, the current system is appalling. However, seeing as most schools are still owned by the church that won't happen until there is radical change in our education system.

children are born by and large by hetrosexual sex,it seems to be natures way of saying that a femine and masculine mix is best for balance.

I don't know if I'd agree with you there. Some theories say that homosexuality is natures way of controlling population growth.

Harsh though it may sound to gay couples but would,nt adopting a child almost guarantee that they would get way above average hurts in their formative years?

For the time being, much to my disdain of admitting it, in "modern" Ireland today in most towns, a child of same sex parents who is in 4th or 5th class would more then likely be mocked/ bullied. Again, I think this stems from ignorance and bias. I'm not saying we should teach kids the bare facts of sex and sexuality in junior or senior infants, but it wouldn't hurt for children to be taught on matters about same sex couples. How teachers would go about this I do not know. There would have to be a careful approach to matters about sex and orientation around children.

it is SO cruel to gay couples who have maternal/paternal instincts like everybody else,but i think it sadly is realism to say so.[/QUOTE]

Again, I am sorry to say I agree with you.

Iwasfrozen · 17-08-2009 9:43pm

MultiUmm wrote: »

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you there. I don't expect children to understand homosexuality by themselves. In todays society they are either left ignorant or at worst they are taught to hate people for their sexual orientation outside of school life.
Proper education is needed on all aspects of sex and sexuality in schools, the current system is appalling. However, seeing as most schools are still owned by the church that won't happen until there is radical change in our education system.

Speak for yourself, I don't want my future children learning about Homosexual relationships in school.

MultiUmm wrote: »

I don't know if I'd agree with you there. Some theories say that homosexuality is natures way of controlling population growth.

Theories are theories, you can't provide them as evidence to support your views.

MultiUmm wrote: »

For the time being, much to my disdain of admitting it, in "modern" Ireland today in most towns, a child of same sex parents who is in 4th or 5th class would more then likely be mocked/ bullied. Again, I think this stems from ignorance and bias. I'm not saying we should teach kids the bare facts of sex and sexuality in junior or senior infants, but it wouldn't hurt for children to be taught on matters about same sex couples. How teachers would go about this I do not know. There would have to be a careful approach to matters about sex and orientation around children.

Again speak for yourself.

Aard · 17-08-2009 9:51pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Speak for yourself, I don't want my future children learning about Homosexual relationships in school.

Why not?

ChocolateSauce · 17-08-2009 9:52pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe the child has the right to a mother and a father, and that this should be the preferrable family unit first and foremost.

Two parents are certainly better than one, but there isn't a shred of evidence to suggest that a mother and a father is better than two of each and none of the other. The opposite is actually true, "gay families" are generally slightly more successful than "straight ones".

+1. Nothing wrong with Gay adoption per say, just that it isn't the preferred method of Child rearing.

You mean is isn't your preferred method.

It has a lot to do with the child, it means that the child doesn't have access to both Male and Female role models

This is a common position taken, but as with the above is generally unsupported by evidence.

or children to be adopted by a gay couple is IMO a breach/betrayel of Their human rights as they cannot choose their parents and have no say.
Their is no doubt that these children would be the subject of snide remarks throughout their childhood as things stand.

I'm sorry, when did you choose your parents? And saying it is wrong for gays to adopt kids because they'll get snide remarks is like blaming women for being raped. You're shifting the blame from the offenders to the victims.

Aard · 17-08-2009 9:55pm

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

The opposite is actually true, "gay families" are generally slightly more successful than "straight ones".

I'd be interested in reading the data that confirms this; could you post a link or a reference?

philologos · 17-08-2009 9:57pm

ChocolateSauce: The material goes both ways. It's not conclusive. I personally don't feel that the family is the place to experiment.

cotwold · 17-08-2009 9:57pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

+1. Nothing wrong with Gay adoption per say, just that it isn't the preferred method of Child rearing.

But you'd deprive gay couples of their right to adopt, and deprive the children of gay parents to their second parents' parental rights over their children.

I don't have anything against homophobes per se but generally they don't think too deeply about the issues they so readily give their opinion on.

cotwold · 17-08-2009 9:59pm

Jakkass wrote: »

ChocolateSauce: The material goes both ways. It's not conclusive. I personally don't feel that the family is the place to experiment.

Well their are gay couples with children and more deciding to get children all the time so what do you do about that.

Jakkass wrote: »

OP: It's not that I'm afraid of gay marriage. I just feel the civil partnership legislation is adequate.

I that case should we do out with civil marriage completely. If its adequate for us it should be adequate for straight couples.

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 9:59pm

Jakkass wrote: »

+1

OP: It's not that I'm afraid of gay marriage. I just feel the civil partnership legislation is adequate.

But what are your exact reasons for being opposed to gay marriage? Leaving out adoption, why would you not want full marriage rights for gay couples? CP isn't good enough. We only want marriage in the eyes of the goverment, NOT the church. Why should Christianity infringe on peoples rights?

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 10:05pm

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe the child has the right to a mother and a father, and that this should be the preferrable family unit first and foremost.

Preferrable maybe, but not always achieveable. Not all parents are good parents. If a child ends up in state care, particularly if it's an older child (who usually find it harder to be adopted) would it not be better for them if they are adopted by two parents of the same gender who are after proving they will provide the child with a loving, nurturing home and give them a good education, or would you rather they stay in foster homes and care homes, vastly reducing their chances to suceed in life?

philologos · 17-08-2009 10:08pm

MultiUmm wrote: »

But what are your exact reasons for being opposed to gay marriage? Leaving out adoption, why would you not want full marriage rights for gay couples? CP isn't good enough. We only want marriage in the eyes of the goverment, NOT the church. Why should Christianity infringe on peoples rights?

All people currently have the right to a marriage. The problem here is that people are not satisfied with what a marriage is defined as. A marriage in an Irish legal context is a union between a man and a woman.

A civil union, as proposed by the new legislation is a union between a two of the same gender. As such both are distinct.

As for Christianity, I think there is room for civil partnerships to be blessed in the church as long as both involved are willing to live by Christian standards in respect to sexual ethics. It's a gray area for me.

What isn't a gray area for me is that the union between a man and a woman is something distinct from the union between two of the same gender.

DublinWriter · 17-08-2009 10:12pm

ynotdu wrote: »

for children to be adopted by a gay couple is IMO a breach/betrayel of Their human rights as they cannot choose their parents and have no say.
Their is no doubt that these children would be the subject of snide remarks throughout their childhood as things stand.

Why stop there? Logically extending your argument then we should also include blacks and Jews.

...but what if under your scheme the allowed Aryan hetrosexual Irish adoptive parents turned out not to be mass goers? Oh, the ignominy the poor child will face....etc etc.

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 10:15pm

Speak for yourself, I don't want my future children learning about Homosexual relationships in school.

Why not? Why would you be so insecure about your children learning that not everybody is hetrosexual? This doesn't just apply to homosexuality. Would you also be insecure about your children learning that not everyone is white or Christian? How do you expect prejudices to be eleminated, or even reduced? Or would you prefer that bigotry and ignorance would still remain rife?

Theories are theories, you can't provide them as evidence to support your views.

I didn't state it was a fact. As you said, theories are theories. Not once did I menion that it was a fact.

MultiUmm · 17-08-2009 10:16pm

Again speak for yourself.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: Are you comfortable with any kind of sex education being taught? Even in 5th or 6th class?

ChocolateSauce · 17-08-2009 10:26pm

Aard wrote: »

I'd be interested in reading the data that confirms this; could you post a link or a reference?

Armesto, 2002; Patterson, 2000; Tasker & Golombok, 1997

I shouldn't have said "are better", I should have said some studies suggest this. Considering that it is such a hot issue, I imagine that gay parents would put in that little bit of extra effort which would make the overall difference. In a world where they had nothing to prove, I think there wouldn't be a difference.

jakkass wrote:

I personally don't feel that the family is the place to experiment.

The experiments are already done, because millions of openly gay people have been raising children for decades.

I've found a number of studies which are a large part of the conclusive basis for the claim that children are just as well off in gay families as in straight ones:

American Psychological Association. (2002). Ethical principles of psychologists and code of conduct. American Psychologist, 57, 1060-1073.

Armesto, J. C. (2002). Developmental and contextual factors that influence gay fathers' parental competence: A review of the literature. Psychology of Men and Masculinity, 3, 67 - 78.

Falk, P.J. (1994). Lesbian mothers: Psychosocial assumptions in family law. American Psychologist, 44, 941-947.

Lofton v. Secretary of Department of Children & Family Services, 358 F.3d 804 (11th Cir. 2004).

Mays, V. M., & Cochran, S. D. (2001). Mental health correlates of perceived discrimination among lesbian, gay, and bisexual adults in the United States. American Journal of Public Health, 91, 1869-1876.

Meyer, I. H. (2003). Prejudice, social stress, and mental health in lesbian, gay, and bisexual populations: Conceptual issues and research evidence. Psychological Bulletin, 129, 674-697.

Patterson, C.J. (2000). Family relationships of lesbians and gay men. Journal of Marriage and Family, 62, 1052- 1069.

Patterson, C.J. (2004a). Lesbian and gay parents and their children: Summary of research findings. In Lesbian and gay parenting: A resource for psychologists. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association.

Patterson, C. J. (2004b). Gay fathers. In M. E. Lamb (Ed.), The role of the father in child development (4th Ed.). New York: John Wiley.

Patterson, C. J., Fulcher, M., & Wainright, J. (2002). Children of lesbian and gay parents: Research, law, and policy. In B. L. Bottoms, M. B. Kovera, and B. D. McAuliff (Eds.), Children, Social Science and the Law (pp, 176 - 199). New York: Cambridge University Press.

Perrin, E. C., and the Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health (2002). Technical Report: Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics, 109, 341 - 344.

Stacey, J. & Biblarz, T.J. (2001). (How) Does sexual orientation of parents matter? American Sociological Review, 65, 159-183.

Tasker, F. (1999). Children in lesbian-led families - A review. Clinical Child Psychology and Psychiatry, 4, 153 - 166.

Tasker, F., & Golombok, S. (1997). Growing up in a lesbian family. New York: Guilford Press

These studies (among others) have lead American Psychiatric Association, the National Association of Social Workers, Child Welfare League of America, the American Bar Association, the North American Council on Adoptable Children, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychoanalytic Association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, in the United Kingdom, the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and in Canada, the Canadian Psychological Association, to all take the formal stance that gays are not bad for children. The European Court of Justice has also ruled in favour of gays on these issues, including on adoption.

Why are people so afraid of gay marriage?

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