My cats kill birds but won't eat them?

The Sweeper · 11-01-2010 4:49am

I'm not surprised they hunt. I'm surprised that people lament this inadvertent side affect of allowing your cat to roam, and then can't get their heads around the fact that if you don't want them killing wildlife, just don't let them roam.

The wildlife thing is also a bigger issue for me, because I'm in Australia, where the roaming cat has wiped out entire populations of small marsupials and other mammals, in some cases actually rendering them extinct in former habitats (not totally extinct).

I'm an advocate of keeping your cats indoors or giving them restricted outdoor access, because it's better for the cat. I also believe there is a place for the rural, working cat in pest control, but AGAIN I don't believe the animals should just be left in the outhouses to feed themselves and breed like rabbits, with farmers drowning the kittens they don't want, for instance.

Farmers commonly retire their working dogs to being inside pets when they get too old to work - do you think that happens to many barn cats?

All I'm asking is that people take responsibility for their cats. If you don't want them killing birds - and as already mentioned, the current weather in Ireland puts this in 'shooting fish in a barrell' territory, then keep them indoors.

doctor evil · 11-01-2010 4:50am

JKM wrote: »

birds maybe get a fright but still live. Everyone's happy.

Just as a further note to that, when a birds takes off in fright they use an awful lot of energy.

So when walking please don't let them chase off the wildlife, particularly waterfowl.

Denerick · 11-01-2010 4:58am

The Sweeper wrote: »

I'm not surprised they hunt. I'm surprised that people lament this inadvertent side affect of allowing your cat to roam, and then can't get their heads around the fact that if you don't want them killing wildlife, just don't let them roam.

The wildlife thing is also a bigger issue for me, because I'm in Australia, where the roaming cat has wiped out entire populations of small marsupials and other mammals, in some cases actually rendering them extinct in former habitats (not totally extinct).

I'm an advocate of keeping your cats indoors or giving them restricted outdoor access, because it's better for the cat. I also believe there is a place for the rural, working cat in pest control, but AGAIN I don't believe the animals should just be left in the outhouses to feed themselves and breed like rabbits, with farmers drowning the kittens they don't want, for instance.

Farmers commonly retire their working dogs to being inside pets when they get too old to work - do you think that happens to many barn cats?

All I'm asking is that people take responsibility for their cats. If you don't want them killing birds - and as already mentioned, the current weather in Ireland puts this in 'shooting fish in a barrell' territory, then keep them indoors.

Ok, in your case there may be justification. I can't speak on behalf of the Australian eco-system. But in Ireland, cats are targeting birds species which are in no danger whatsoever of extinction. If it ever gets to the stage that cats become so powerful that they begin to wipe out common Irish birds, I'll take a stand. I love nature and wildlife as much as the next man. But I do think there is some unnecessary alarmism in this thread.

P.S- Our cat is quite old so when he manages to catch anything, we're all somewhat happy for him. The other day he caught a bird and he was like a young kitten again.

Shewhomustbe... · 11-01-2010 5:45am

Denerick wrote: »

Ok, in your case there may be justification. I can't speak on behalf of the Australian eco-system. But in Ireland, cats are targeting birds species which are in no danger whatsoever of extinction. If it ever gets to the stage that cats become so powerful that they begin to wipe out common Irish birds, I'll take a stand. I love nature and wildlife as much as the next man. But I do think there is some unnecessary alarmism in this thread.

I'm sure when cats were brought over to Austalia, New Zealand and the surrounding islands they didn't think that they'd wipe out entire species of birds and animals but they did, so why wait until it's too late before curbing the behaviour of domesticated animals.

Only one of our cats is allowed out and has brought in many mice, both alive and dead, and I will praise her for doing this but if she brings in a bird she'll be scolded so as not to encourage her to hunt them. I am not picking birds over mice because I think they're cuter, far from it, I much prefer Milly keep the mice alive so I can put them back outside but as said, mice/rats breed far quicker and in higher numbers than birds.

GisforGrenade · 11-01-2010 6:04am

Since you don't seem to be too pushed about the birds just don't leave out any food for them because more are probably dying from your cats than the cold, also scolding the cats when they bring in a bird but praising them when they kill mice is a good way to go, if you cats are busy keeping your house and nearby area clear of mice they won't be killing birds. Also there is nothing natural about a cat that was initially imported into this country being well fed by its owner and then going around and killing birds because it is bored, but either way a few bored cats are not the biggest threat to a lot of birds the biggest threat is global warming, changing agricultural practices and the majority of people now living in cities, certain birds will thrive but other species will become rarer and rarer.

Shewhomustbe... · 11-01-2010 6:56am

GisforGrenade wrote: »

Since you don't seem to be too pushed about the birds just don't leave out any food for them because more are probably dying from your cats than the cold, also scolding the cats when they bring in a bird but praising them when they kill mice is a good way to go, if you cats are busy keeping your house and nearby area clear of mice they won't be killing birds. Also there is nothing natural about a cat that was initially imported into this country being well fed by its owner and then going around and killing birds because it is bored, but either way a few bored cats are not the biggest threat to a lot of birds the biggest threat is global warming, changing agricultural practices and the majority of people now living in cities, certain birds will thrive but other species will become rarer and rarer.

I'm assuming this post is directed at me.
I am pushed about the birds, I've been feeding the birds longer than I've had cats. As I said, only one cat is allowed out, and I use allowed loosely as if it was possible she'd been indoors permanently. It is more of a rarity that Milly will kill a bird and when she does it is usually a wren http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wren and there is nothing I can do to protect them. All my bird feeders are in an open area and very high off the ground.
The other reasons you cite for the decline in bird numbers are the exact reasons I will not stop taking care of the ones who live in the trees, hedgerow and surrounding fields around my house.

Run_to_da_hills · 11-01-2010 9:53am

Denerick wrote: »

P.S- Our cat is quite old so when he manages to catch anything, we're all somewhat happy for him. The other day he caught a bird and he was like a young kitten again.

PS some day your neighbours alastion may take to your elderly cat and then feel like he is a pup again. :rolleyes:

Graces7 · 11-01-2010 10:54am

:(That is an emotive opening sentence.

I once had a cat who tried to get his collar off; got his leg caught and had a wound under his leg then. Never used a collar since.

Nor ever will; and we love our cats dearly.

Just now, because it is so intensely cold, our cats choose to stay in during the day. Birdwatching from the window.

And we have been feeding the birds up here for many weeks; they are fat and active.

They are feeding well off even the windowledges.

Always individual choice as in all things.

JKM wrote: »

If you love your cats you would put collars with bells on them. For several reasons, one being they could be identified as yours if needs be, another being the amount of diseases that can be transferred to your cat from wild animals (and vice versa) including the taxoplasma parasite (which can be transferred to you). Most collars these days have safety catches on them so if there's no chance of your cat 'hanging' themselves. I have four cats and all four have collars and all with bells with the exception of one who is driven demented by the bell but doesn't hunt anyway. One of them is particularly active and has lost four collars in the last few months but was never harmed by them.

And putting out feeders is only going to attract more weak starving birds to your yard. Our cats have brought in three birds in the last few days, my boyfriend managed to save one of them, the other two were not so lucky. So, we decided to close our cat flap and only leave them out supervised until the cold snap lifts. The poor birds haven't a chance with current conditions.

There's no reason why birds and cats can't live side by side. Cats with bells still experience the thrill of the hunt and the birds maybe get a fright but still live. Everyone's happy.

Graces7 · 11-01-2010 11:04am

That is a ridiculous analogy. Please!

Our two cats - in a very rural area - come and go as they please.

And they go less in this weather.

The birds here are not starving either; they were well fed before this started. And are still.

If a bird is so weakened, the likelihood is that it will not live anyway. That too is nature, tough as that is.

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Letting your domestic cat out in this weather unsupervised when there is starving birds out there some whom haven't even got the energy to take off is disgusting. Its like shooting someone in the back.

The cold spell is expected to last until the end of the week, it isn't much to ask people to keep an eye on their cats for a few more days.

seamus · 11-01-2010 11:06am

The Sweeper wrote: »

The wildlife thing is also a bigger issue for me, because I'm in Australia, where the roaming cat has wiped out entire populations of small marsupials and other mammals, in some cases actually rendering them extinct in former habitats (not totally extinct).

This is probably key in the whole, "stop your cats hunting" issue. Outside of rural areas, humans exist in population densities far beyond what's "normal" in an ecosystem. We bring along with us dogs, cats and rodents, who also then exist in very high densities.

Birds, for example, don't get carried along for the ride in the same way. While they may experience some degree of support from waste food and other stuff discarded by humans, urbanisation is by and large devastating to bird populations. So allowing cats to roam and kill birds in urban areas is not allowing the natural order of things to take place, in fact it's exactly the opposite - you're tipping the balance in favour of the cat.

Even outside of urban areas (such as where the OP lives), humans interfere with the standard ecosystem by providing food and shelter for cats. Thus any one particular area can support a far higher cat population than it would without human interference, again tipping the balance in favour of the cat and devastating the local bird populations.

So you have two ethical options:

1. Feed your cat and stick a bell on it.
2. Stop feeding and sheltering your cat and let nature take its course.

Tiny Explosions · 11-01-2010 11:34am

The reason the OP keeps cats is to kill vermin, so if she/he put a collar with a bell on it, then the cats wouldn't be much use to have around ( unless as pets)

Now I own a cat and she catches 4 or 5 times the amount of vermin than she does birds ( i scold her if she brings a dead bird home) but I would never make her wear a bell on her collar. The way I see it, if she catches a bird, sorry but tough for the bird! (sorry if that sounds harsh).

But catching 7 birds in one night does sound like an awful lot, maybe the birds where already dead and they just brought them home maybe?

Denerick · 11-01-2010 12:14pm

Shewhomustbe... wrote: »

I'm sure when cats were brought over to Austalia, New Zealand and the surrounding islands they didn't think that they'd wipe out entire species of birds and animals but they did, so why wait until it's too late before curbing the behaviour of domesticated animals.

Only one of our cats is allowed out and has brought in many mice, both alive and dead, and I will praise her for doing this but if she brings in a bird she'll be scolded so as not to encourage her to hunt them. I am not picking birds over mice because I think they're cuter, far from it, I much prefer Milly keep the mice alive so I can put them back outside but as said, mice/rats breed far quicker and in higher numbers than birds.

Do you not see how ludicrous that is? How can you expect a cat to know the moral difference between killing a rat and a bird? Its absurd!

seamus · 11-01-2010 12:20pm

Denerick wrote: »

Do you not see how ludicrous that is? How can you expect a cat to know the moral difference between killing a rat and a bird? Its absurd!

The cat doesn't know the moral difference, but it is aware that there is a difference between a rat and a bird just as a dog knows that there's a difference between his food and my food and therefore he knows which he is allowed to eat and which he isn't.

Run_to_da_hills · 11-01-2010 1:18pm

seamus wrote: »

The cat doesn't know the moral difference, but it is aware that there is a difference between a rat and a bird just as a dog knows that there's a difference between his food and my food and therefore he knows which he is allowed to eat and which he isn't.

My mates cat will bring any amount of mice and rats into the lawn but you won't see it bring any birds in because he knows that he will get a belt. Same goes for clawing the couch or jumping up on the kitchen table.

star-pants · 11-01-2010 1:19pm

Denerick infracted - less sarcasm & lolcats please
The Sweeper - you know where the report post button is.

Everyone else - I'm moving this to Animal Welfare as it's become more of welfare discussion. (just so you know incase your post doesn't appear immediatedly as AW is premodded)

Shewhomustbe... · 13-01-2010 7:46am

Denerick wrote: »

Do you not see how ludicrous that is? How can you expect a cat to know the moral difference between killing a rat and a bird? Its absurd!

I don't expect my cat to know the moral difference between anything. As I said already, I prefer it when she keeps the mice she brings in alive so I can put them back outside. I don't like animal cruelty of any kind but I cannot stop an animals natural instinct, she will hunt because that's the way she's programmed, and she will also eat the mice she catches so she doesn't hunt just for fun. I live in a rural area surrounded by fields so I think the mice she kills is minuscule compared to the number living here.
I'm not one of those people that prefers one animal over another, though rats wouldn't be topping my list, except for their intelligence and tenacity.

My cats kill birds but won't eat them?

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