National Postcodes to be introduced

murpho999 · 09-05-2010 11:46pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

So is your issue you didn't have a good enough map to find Brownstown?
If there was a postcode how would you find Brownstown? you still need some kind of map, be it a satnav, or something. How would you find the house name with a postcode?

Brownstown is a rural townland that covers a few square kilometers. The issue is not mapping, as paper maps don't show houses, but incorrect and inadequate addressing. A postcode that you would put into a satnav (paper maps & are things of the past for me) would get me to the correct place.

Also, this thing about house names really annoys me. Why do people insist on giving their 3 bed semi a name like 'Pine Hurst' or 'Tivoro' instead of a number and then also lots of named houses don't even have the name of the house on a sign outside. Totally pretentious and ridiculous.

Cannot understand why people are against post codes. Ireland is completely in the minority on this issue. Third World countries have post code systems so why do people think they are a bad idea?

EvilMonkey · 10-05-2010 12:41am

spacetweek wrote: »

Liechtenstein is 35,000 people and has postcodes.

Yes, you absolutely need them. They're used for emergency services, food deilvery, parcels, census data, marketing, etc. Sending letters is only a small part of it.

We already have all of these, so why do we need postcodes.
The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business, and we can be spammed easer with junk mail.

antoinolachtnai · 10-05-2010 12:51am

Well, for emergency services, for one thing, it is very hard for ambulance staff to find the right area or the right house. Difficulties finding the correct house are very common and this is a big problem in an emergency situation.

Equally, it is difficult for utilities to find the right house in an area they hardly ever visit, when there are no specific addresses. This means extra time is spent, and the extra time is ultimately passed on to customers in their utility bills.

Equally, we already get spam and junk mail, even though we don't have postcodes.

L1011 · 10-05-2010 1:00am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

We already have all of these, so why do we need postcodes.
The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business, and we can be spammed easer with junk mail.

Cost.

The HUGE extra costs of dealing with logistics in this country are passed directly back on to consumers.

The need for us to have countless small regional emergency service dispatch centres for "local knowledge" rather than centralised ones is passed directly back to us in taxes.

The extra costs for delivery services are passed on to us in higher prices for couriers/parcel delivery.

And so on.

EvilMonkey · 10-05-2010 1:26am

So when we get postcodes deliveries will be cheaper? Yeah right.

The goverment can then close a load of Fire stations, Garda stations, Post offices. Sounds like a great deal for rural areas they will be more isolated but at least have efficent deliveries.

And pay the unemployment benefits of the locals that used to work in the local dispatch centres, out of the taxes saved.

I wont hold my breth for the reduced taxes and delivery prices.

Jayuu · 10-05-2010 1:27am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

We already have all of these, so why do we need postcodes.
The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business, and we can be spammed easer with junk mail.

The argument that its easier to spam is complete rubbish (as is the SPAM!). Either junk mail is simply posted without any address on it, or its sent because people have subscribed to a service in which case they've given their address already.

As for it making things cheaper for business, well I think that reducing overheads for business is generally considered a good thing. Although I'm not sure exactly how postcodes do this.

If postcodes are so bad then why does practically every single country in Europe have them?

L1011 · 10-05-2010 1:32am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

So when we get postcodes deliveries will be cheaper? Yeah right.

Almost certainly.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The goverment can then close a load of Fire stations, Garda stations, Post offices. Sounds like a great deal for rural areas they will be more isolated but at least have efficent deliveries.

Stop deliberately misrepresenting what I've said.

ForiegnNational · 10-05-2010 12:41pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

So when we get postcodes deliveries will be cheaper? Yeah right.

EvilMonkey, you obviously live in a town on a named street with a house number. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to problems with deliveries.

Spam is still delivered, even without a post code. An Post happily take the money and run when it comes to junk mail.

The problem is down to lack of choice (of delivery services) and frustration for myself and every professional body that does not live within 1/2 a mile and know my family history better than I do!

Personally I have had problems with parcel delivery, workmen (turned up in a similarly named townland 45km away) and just about every company that provides goods to the home (builders merchants, stone quarries, etc, etc, etc).

If it was such a bad idea, why are we and Greece the only countries without them?

EvilMonkey · 10-05-2010 2:38pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

EvilMonkey, you obviously live in a town on a named street with a house number. You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about when it comes to problems with deliveries.

Spam is still delivered, even without a post code. An Post happily take the money and run when it comes to junk mail.

The problem is down to lack of choice (of delivery services) and frustration for myself and every professional body that does not live within 1/2 a mile and know my family history better than I do!

Personally I have had problems with parcel delivery, workmen (turned up in a similarly named townland 45km away) and just about every company that provides goods to the home (builders merchants, stone quarries, etc, etc, etc).

If it was such a bad idea, why are we and Greece the only countries without them?

No I live in an unnamed/unnumbered house outside a village on an R road.
I have never had a problem with deliveries.
I have had a fridge, furniture, kitchen delivered recently along with equipment from a hire company with no problems.
When i cancelled my TV years ago Chorus had no problem finding my house to remove their equipment.

In my work I'm often sent to unknown areas to houses/businesses. I am usually able to find them. If I'm going far i would usually call to make sure there would be someone in, so its no problem to ask for directions. If its local i would have a fairly good idea where im going(as i would expect any delivery driver) It doesn't cost my employer much more if i cant find the place immediately, apart from a cheap phone call and maybe a few € extra petrol money(that would probably be claimed anyway

)

Postcodes wont make call out charges cheaper for any customers i call to.

Regarding junk mail I said it would be easier, not that there would be any more or less of it.

I also never said post codes were a bad idea.

They are not necessary in my opinion.
The recent widespread adoption of mobile phones. Almost anyone is contactable and it doesn't cost that much to call and get directions.

Most countries that have postcodes adopted them before anyone could be easily and cheaply contacted.

When we do get postcodes don't expect services to be cheaper, you need competition for that.

ForiegnNational · 10-05-2010 3:14pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

When i cancelled my TV years ago Chorus had no problem finding my house to remove their equipment.

If you can get Chorus / cable, you are not too remote EvilMonkey! We don't have mains water or sewerage within 2km, so cable is a dream!

EvilMonkey wrote: »

When we do get postcodes don't expect services to be cheaper, you need competition for that.

Now you have cracked it, without postcodes, we have no competition... Until competition have the ability to cheaply locate you and plan delivery routes centrally (rather than as you have to do, go to a rough area and call ahead), prices will not come down...

SPDUB · 10-05-2010 10:13pm

ForiegnNational wrote: »

INow you have cracked it, without postcodes, we have no competition......

The reason why most delivery services concentrate on cities especially Dublin and bigger town is nothing to do with lack of postcodes but that it's much more cheaper and profitable to deliver over a smaller area .

L1011 · 10-05-2010 10:20pm

SPDUB wrote: »

The reason why most delivery services concentrate on cities especially Dublin and bigger town is nothing to do with lack of postcodes but that it's much more cheaper and profitable to deliver over a smaller area .

Its both.

Its unworkably expensive to deliver to rural areas without postcodes unless you know them. One of the reasons its the franchised services that are about the only ones that cover those places well.

antoinolachtnai · 10-05-2010 10:33pm

It's a little more complicated than that. Without postcodes (and the address database that goes with it) it is really impossible for a carrier or service provider to even guess what will be involved in making a particular delivery, and so it is very difficult to price it. It is also very difficult to plan service levels.

Carawaystick · 11-05-2010 11:04pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Brownstown is a rural townland that covers a few square kilometers. The issue is not mapping, as paper maps don't show houses, but incorrect and inadequate addressing. A postcode that you would put into a satnav (paper maps & are things of the past for me) would get me to the correct place.

Paper maps do show houses, discovery series show houses and larger scale os maps do also.

How do postcodes tell which one of several unnamed unnumbered houses in the countryside are the one you want? where they are all within some distance of each other?

Again in the example of France as a fairly developed country with postcodes with only 999 locations per department or county, they manage by having proper maps and a system for naming places, which is what we're missing here.

spacetweek · 22-05-2010 1:27am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

The only advantage of postcodes is it makes it cheaper for business,

I would have thought this was a good thing?

EvilMonkey wrote:

The goverment can then close a load of Fire stations, Garda stations, Post offices. Sounds like a great deal for rural areas they will be more isolated but at least have efficent deliveries.

The local one probably was a 10 min drive from yer gaf, but wasted another 10 looking for the the one-off bungalow blitz. When that local one is closed, the one further away might be a 15-20 min drive - so you're either breaking even on response time or else improving it.

EvilMonkey wrote:

And pay the unemployment benefits of the locals that used to work in the local dispatch centres, out of the taxes saved.

Oh great, let's have loads of unnecessary dispatch centres just to give people something to do. Wonderful.

spacetweek · 22-05-2010 1:30am

EvilMonkey wrote: »

No I live in an unnamed/unnumbered house outside a village on an R road.
I have never had a problem with deliveries.
I have had a fridge, furniture, kitchen delivered recently along with equipment from a hire company with no problems.
When i cancelled my TV years ago Chorus had no problem finding my house to remove their equipment.

Explain it to us - how did they find you? You got lucky.

EvilMonkey wrote:

In my work I'm often sent to unknown areas to houses/businesses. I am usually able to find them. If I'm going far i would usually call to make sure there would be someone in, so its no problem to ask for directions.

What if no one answers the phone? Do you see the way there's no Plan B here?

EvilMonkey wrote:

If its local i would have a fairly good idea where im going(as i would expect any delivery driver) It doesn't cost my employer much more if i cant find the place immediately, apart from a cheap phone call and maybe a few € extra petrol money(that would probably be claimed anyway )

Claimed - as an expense - which the company passes onto the consumer

We currently have a massively inefficient, and therefore expensive system. You're basing your experience on the assumption that you either already know where the house is (and are therefore cheating) or else that you have a phone number and someone answers. Any system based around that is a failure. The system must work even when the person has no local knowledge and no way of getting any.

EvilMonkey · 23-05-2010 1:05am

spacetweek wrote: »

I would have thought this was a good thing

Advantages usually are!

spacetweek wrote: »

The local one probably was a 10 min drive from yer gaf, but wasted another 10 looking for the the one-off bungalow blitz. When that local one is closed, the one further away might be a 15-20 min drive - so you're either breaking even on response time or else improving it.

Your assuming the person that dials 999 knows the area code, or can easily find out, what if they don't? Then its breaking even or longer.

spacetweek wrote: »

Oh great, let's have loads of unnecessary dispatch centres just to give people something to do. Wonderful.

They are necessary without postcodes, there's plenty of job schemes around the country that do just that. Is it better if they commute to a city or do nothing?

spacetweek wrote: »

Explain it to us - how did they find you? You got lucky.

The deliveries called me, sometimes when they were near, sometimes earlier in the day making sure someone would be there. The Chorus guy just turned up which was strange, maybe they have their own system or they got lucky.

spacetweek wrote: »

What if no one answers the phone? Do you see the way there's no Plan B here?

Then they don't get a call out that day. But they are expecting the call so usually answer.

spacetweek wrote: »

Claimed - as an expense - which the company passes onto the consumer

Yeah but they don't pay any more then the local ones, so everyone pays. But when area codes come in i doubt my company will reduce their prices, or any of the utility companies. The only way they will go down is if their being undercut by someone or undercutting someone.

spacetweek wrote: »

We currently have a massively inefficient, and therefore expensive system. You're basing your experience on the assumption that you either already know where the house is (and are therefore cheating) or else that you have a phone number and someone answers. Any system based around that is a failure. The system must work even when the person has no local knowledge and no way of getting any.

I am basing my assumption that in 2010 in Ireland if you cant get in contact with someone that gave you their contact details then they don't want to be contacted.
I don't see that we are paying much more than any other country that has post codes.

Anyway post codes are coming I hope they will result in savings for end users.

spacetweek · 25-05-2010 11:52pm

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Your assuming the person that dials 999 knows the area code, or can easily find out, what if they don't? Then its breaking even or longer.

Yea, but if you're beside the road in the middle of nowhere, you'll always be pretty hard to find. This is the same in every country. I'm asking for Ireland to be at the same standard as everywhere else - it's not, cause you're hard to find in Ireland even if you're at home. Shouldn't be like that.

EvilMonkey wrote:

They are necessary without postcodes, there's plenty of job schemes around the country that do just that. Is it better if they commute to a city or do nothing?

No way do I support artificial job creation just to give people something to do. This is the sign of an immature economy.

EvilMonkey wrote:

Yeah but they don't pay any more then the local ones, so everyone pays. But when area codes come in i doubt my company will reduce their prices, or any of the utility companies. The only way they will go down is if their being undercut by someone or undercutting someone.
Anyway post codes are coming I hope they will result in savings for end users.

Costs will go down when it becomes easier to get more deliveries in per day.

This is one of these situations where I can't even believe we're having this discussion! Postcodes are 100% essential for any country, especially a developed one. Otherwise you have chaos.

SPDUB · 26-05-2010 7:25am

spacetweek wrote: »

Costs will go down when it becomes easier to get more deliveries in per day.

And knowing this country bigger profits for firms with absolutely no end benefit in price terms for customers

spacetweek wrote: »

This is one of these situations where I can't even believe we're having this discussion! Postcodes are 100% essential for any country, especially a developed one. Otherwise you have chaos.

Strange we don't have chaos at the moment .

The most that can be said is that it may be difficult to find some places outside cities or towns .

celticbest · 26-05-2010 11:42am

The bottom line on Postcodes is that they are a First World standard, Ireland is now supposed to be a first world country, if this is so they should be implemented here ASAP.

My brother whom lives in the UK recently moved house, when I went over to see him after his move I asked for him for his address all he gave me was the postcode to enter in my Sat Nav, this brought me directly to his Cul-de-sac were I saw his car outside his house.

In order to get to his new home I had to drive for over 40 miles from the Airport to his house in unfamiliar surroundings and all I need was a six digit Alpha-Numeric code - eg. XX7 XX7.

This is why in my opinion Postcodes are vital, they bring you or even deliveries you are waiting for directly to your door, also I have often seen Ambulances in my area going up and down the same roads looking for a specific address if we had postcodes here they would be directed directly to the correct road by there Sat Nav.

It is a major part of modern day infrastructure.

SPDUB · 26-05-2010 8:10pm

celticbest wrote: »

My brother whom lives in the UK recently moved house, when I went over to see him after his move I asked for him for his address all he gave me was the postcode to enter in my Sat Nav, this brought me directly to his Cul-de-sac were I saw his car outside his house..........This is why in my opinion Postcodes are vital, they bring you or even deliveries you are waiting for directly to your door.

That claim is not true for UK postcodes because they are not specific to individual houses .

You found your brothers house because you recognised his car .

antoinolachtnai · 26-05-2010 8:17pm

The postcode plus the house number will bring you there, no?

101sean · 26-05-2010 8:31pm

In urban areas in the UK, it narrows down to around 10 properties so the postcode plus a house number gets you there. Large users or premises can have there own. In rural areas it doesn't work as well, post code can cover a big area but at least there's road and house names as well.

I'm fed up with high courier charges here and constantly having to give directions or meet them in town, sooner we have postcodes the better.

fricatus · 26-05-2010 8:36pm

SPDUB wrote: »

That claim is not true for UK postcodes because they are not specific to individual houses .

You found your brothers house because you recognised his car .

Oh for God's sake, talk about missing the point!

No, he found his brother's house because the postcode-plus-satnav combination brought him from 40 miles away to within 100 metres - to a point where all he had to do was recognise the car!

A lot of the debate on postcodes covers deliveries, sat nav, junk mail, etc., and people can debate the pros and cons thereof. Surely though, the fact that emergency services can use them to locate 999 calls has to be a plus?

For example, with a proper postcode system, this would never have happened.

Two spurious arguments are always raised in this scenario:

"But what if the person gave the wrong postcode?"
Well surely any decent dispatch procedure would ask for the postcode first, but then confirm the location (in the address database) that that corresponds to.

"Well not all 999 callers will know the postcode!"
Yeah, but if it's your house that's burning down, or your daughter that's fallen out of a tree, then you will! Or if a serious car accident occurs, it's often local residents who hear the bang and call the emergency services.

Callers outside their own home or work locations will of course have to rely on other means, but that's how it would have been anyway.

Going back to the original argument, postcodes mightn't get the fire brigade to the exact house, but a good system will get them close enough so that they can see which house is on fire!

SPDUB · 26-05-2010 8:58pm

fricatus wrote: »

A lot of the debate on postcodes covers deliveries, sat nav, junk mail, etc., and people can debate the pros and cons thereof. Surely though, the fact that emergency services can use them to locate 999 calls has to be a plus?

But as their name indicates they are primary for post (delivery companies ) .

That they have an added benefit is good but that is not their main purpose .

And to repeat your phrase "talk about missing the point!" I was pointing out to that poster the UK postcode brought him to the street(?) but without a number or house name any delivery person would have to knock on every door and hope someone is home in one of the house .

The delivery person is not going to recognise your car .

fricatus · 26-05-2010 9:22pm

SPDUB wrote: »

But as their name indicates they are primary for post (delivery companies ) .

That they have an added benefit is good but that is not their main purpose .

And to repeat your phrase "talk about missing the point!" I was pointing out to that poster the UK postcode brought him to the street(?) but without a number or house name any delivery person would have to knock on every door and hope someone is home in one of the house .

The delivery person is not going to recognise your car .

AFAIK, UK postcodes bring you down to a group of 10 houses. Even in the worst case scenario which you outline, a delivery person would have to knock on only 10 doors to get the right one.

Of course they wouldn't really have to do that, because they would also have the house number! The point, which you seem to be deliberately ignoring, is that the postcode brings you right down to the right delivery location.

It's not just post though, that they're useful for (even though that's where they originated). Businesses and government agencies can build their own spatial data just by asking users for their postcodes and then mapping the results on a map of those postcodes. This sort of thing allows services to be delivered more efficiently.

We just don't have anything like that in Ireland. We don't even have any experience of it, so we're completely blind to the value of it. It's only when you see the ease with which a business abroad can gather and use data under a postcode system, that you understand how useful it is. A friend of mine implemented a very simple system in the UK where the postcodes of all the customers were mapped, and potential locations for new branch offices were identified.

Another example: I worked for a multinational delivery company for a while. A crappy job, but it gave me great insight into how these things work. We were able to quote a 7.30 delivery time for central Paris postcodes 75001-75011, 8.30 for 75012-75020, etc., and the same for towns and cities all over France.

For Ireland however, we had Dublin 1-24, Co Dublin and then 25 other counties, so the delivery time even for Limerick or Waterford cities was given as 12.00 - the same as for Dingle or West Cork!

That was because there was no way of giving a reliable delivery time based on an address that a customer would give. The only other countries that were so badly organised were the likes of Cameroon and Senegal. You would have to see it on your computer screen to believe it!

As someone else said, postcodes are baseline infrastructure in developed countries. We need to get up to date on this. Would we accept electricity that only came on for two hours in the morning and evening? Would we f***!

ardmacha · 26-05-2010 9:55pm

we had Dublin 1-24, Co Dublin and then 25 other counties, so the delivery time even for Limerick or Waterford cities was given as 12.00 - the same as for Dingle or West Cork!
That was because there was no way of giving a reliable delivery time based on an address that a customer would give.

There was of course, if you are talking about an hour or two time window. There was no reason whatsoever why you couldn't tell the difference between Waterford and Dingle, even if you lacked some detail in the area around Dingle. That was just laziness.

Postcodes are certainly desireable, but their absence is used as an excuse.

SPDUB · 26-05-2010 9:59pm

fricatus wrote: »

The point, which you seem to be deliberately ignoring, is that the postcode brings you right down to the right delivery location.

The point you seem to be deliberately ignoring is the the original poster said the UK postcode brought him to his brother's house .

The UK postcode cannot bring you to a particular house even in a city .

fricatus wrote: »

A friend of mine implemented a very simple system in the UK where the postcodes of all the customers were mapped, and potential locations for new branch offices were identified.

That could be done on a conventional map using name of streets etc so that for example you notice you are getting a lot of deliveries in Grafton street and Westmoreland so that you decide that College Green is a good midway point to set up a drop off point .

As for your delivery company example that just highlights the fact that they are primarily for post (delivery companies of any type ) so that in this case they could work out delivery schedules

Aard · 26-05-2010 10:01pm

What seems to be the main reason people have against introducing codes? Is it an 'if it ain't broke don't fix it', or is it the cost of implementation?

26-05-2010 10:20pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The postcode plus the house number will bring you there, no?

Yes, I tested it once and the letter was delivered!

National Postcodes to be introduced

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